Manipulative crying - when does is start? How to deal with it? - Page 2

[EVC]

True manipulation is when the person is contriving to get their way, even though they know it has a negative effect for other people involved. Manipulation isn't simply a matter of "I do such and such behavior for such and such outcome" as it is "I do such and such behavior so certain person will do what I want even though it imposes on them."

I actually just checked a few dictionaries and that is not my understanding of the definition. Here's what wictionary says:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate

to manipulate (third-person singular simple present manipulates, present participle manipulating, simple past and past participle manipulated)
(transitive) To move, arrange or operate something using the hands
(transitive) To influence, manage, direct, control or tamper with something to one’s own advantage
(transitive) (medicine) To handle and move a body part, either as an examination or for a therapeutic purpose

So by that definition (specifically to influence to one's advantage), it is quite possibly a form of manipulation. Listen, I don't think ANYONE here is advocating placing moral responsibility on the child for this. We are using a definition of the behavior. She has (it seems) found an effective method of behaving to achieve her goal (influencing a situation to her advantage). I think that is actually an entirely NEUTRAL description of the action, rather than a moral judgment. Again, no one has yet placed ANY moral judgment on the child, simply used a term to describe the nature of the behavior. But, yes, perhaps we are simply getting into issues of semantics here.

I guess some people look at someone struggling to find a way to get their needs met as manipulation. Semantics I guess. It's about how you respond to it though. Do you meet the need, or ignore. I'd probably skip calling it manipulation, but more importantly I would meet the needs of the child.

You see, for me there is a difference between what a child needs and what a child wants. For infants, imo, it is different (where needs = wants) than it is for a three year old where these are two different things. Yes, I do believe that a parent should always make EVERY humanly possible effort to meet a child's NEEDS whether physical or emotional. However, I do not think this is necessarily the case with what a child's WANTS. In fact, it is sometimes better NOT to meet a child's wants, such as in cases where it may be potentially harmful to the chlild OR where the family's NEEDS outweigh the child's WANTS (and, yes, I believe the needs of the family in most cases come before the wants of the child).

We do NOT know anything more about the issue than the OP has described. We do not know if there are REAL problems at the daycare that must be addressed or which make the daycare an unsuitable place for this child to be. Many people have suggested that she look at that carefully first.

However, IF the daycare is a kind, caring, stimulating environment, and IF the needs of the family include having the child in daycare then yes I do believe the best thing to do is simply help the child adjust to the new situation.

Piaget isn't the other child developmental theorist out there. And, a theory is not fact, it's someone's best educated guess. There are multiple theories of human development out there. Piaget is only one. Vygotsky and Rousseau are others and I'm sure there are more. Plus, every child is unique and not going to always behave the way the theorists claim they will at the exact ages they will either.

Of course every child is unique, but we aren't talking about every child. We are talking about the OP's child and, going on the assumption that parents generally know their children better than anyone else, she stated this:

But I know my kid, and know she knows exactly what she's doing.

So I am inclined to believe her.

Force the child to separate before he or she is ready to, you WILL have issues but you shouldn't blame the child for them.

This may be your opinion, but lest we break out into another battle of Mommy Wars, I do hope you will respect the opinions and life circumstances of other parents for whom this kind of situation can not fairly be called:

an unnecessary preschool/daycare setting

[keilonwy]

Originally Posted by Miss Information

Piaget isn't the other child developmental theorist out there. And, a theory is not fact, it's someone's best educated guess. There are multiple theories of human development out there. Piaget is only one. Vygotsky and Rousseau are others and I'm sure there are more. Plus, every child is unique and not going to always behave the way the theorists claim they will at the exact ages they will either.

Okay. This is off-topic, but it drives me absolutely crazy (seriously, totally bonkers) when people don't understand that in the scientific world, a theory is, in fact, tested. It's NOT a "best educated guess!" It's held up by a series of tests and proofs. Pretty common misconception about my own field (evolutionary biology being based on JUST A THEORY), thus why it makes me crazy

As I said, I'm not a child development expert. There are many theories as to development out there. I was pointing out that, according to one theorist (Piaget), this stage is totally normal. However, I think you'll find that most people agree that for babies wants and needs are the same thing. For older kids, wants and needs differentiate. A three year old can really, really want a cookie - that cookie is not a necessity like nursing or a diaper change is for a baby. I don't think that I'm not an attached parent because I recognize that wants and needs are different for three year olds, partly because Dr. Sears recognizes this fact, too.

I also want to make clear that I think that a child's wants are very real emotions, and should be honored as such. It's just that as they get older, wants are no longer life-or-death.

[ann_of_loxley]

I also want to make clear that I think that a child's wants are very real emotions, and should be honored as such. It's just that as they get older, wants are no longer life-or-death.

I agree. And this is not saying that they get what they want - it just means that you awknowledge and validate their emotions. If my three year old is crying over a toy in a shop we just can not afford - sure, it is something he wants and does not need. I don't think his crying is manipulative. I feel his emotions. His emotions are real. I can not magincally make more money appear in my bank account - so I can not get him the toy. But I can validate his feelings - because they are real and important.

I don't believe a child can be maniplative. I think 'maniplative' is a negative word and not something I associate with my, what I feel, is very positive type of parenting - this is a 'gentle discipline' forum after all (despite the fact I consider myself in the catagorie of the crazy consensual liv-er). If my son is behaving in a way that many of the mainstream population would label as 'maniplative' (or indeed, if any of the children I look after are behaving in a 'manipulative' way) - I think how I respond is what is important. It is not about winning the battle (so no need to think of them as being 'manipulative') - it is about addressing the underlying need (there is one - its not the toy, but there is some other underlying need). If such behaviour is being thrown at me - I have to step back and think 'woah - pretty serious stuff here - where is our connection out of balance?' and/or 'why does this cihld feel that they have to act in such a way to get my attention?' - its not manipulation - its the inability to express themselves any other way. Take tantrums for example - sometimes it simple = thirsty, hungry, tired, in need of some attention. As they get older, it might get more complicated = small things building up and spilling out, something a friend said to them at the playground, something they were working on not going right, havn't seen someone we love in a long time, questioning their worth, etc. It can all get pretty deep - but I think its what has to be dug at.

[Polliwog]

I was an early childhood education specialist for many years. It is really hard for some children to settle into preschool. The second day is often harder than the first and the second week is even harder than the first, for a lot of children. I recommend staying with her the first (or next day or two.) When you need to leave, take her with you. When she seems confident, leave for a little while and then come back. It won't take long until she's comfortable being there for long periods of time. Soon it will be the whole day. Not all children need this level of scaffolding, but it sounds like your DD does.

[EVC]

And this is not saying that they get what they want - it just means that you awknowledge and validate their emotions. If my three year old is crying over a toy in a shop we just can not afford - sure, it is something he wants and does not need. I don't think his crying is manipulative. I feel his emotions. His emotions are real. I can not magincally make more money appear in my bank account - so I can not get him the toy. But I can validate his feelings - because they are real and important.

Please don't get me wrong, I completely agree with acknowledging and validating feelings. As I said, I personally see the word "manipulation" as a fairly neutral, description term and one which I do think can be accurately used with some children of this age group. That is not to say that I believe the best course of action is to blow the child off and "oh well, to hell with you". I just feel that figuring out what is going on (i.e. if there are real problems at the daycare vs. if it is more of a temporary transition issue) is a first step to sorting out the problem.

..

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by keilonwy

Okay. This is off-topic, but it drives me absolutely crazy (seriously, totally bonkers) when people don't understand that in the scientific world, a theory is, in fact, tested. It's NOT a "best educated guess!" It's held up by a series of tests and proofs. Pretty common misconception about my own field (evolutionary biology being based on JUST A THEORY), thus why it makes me crazy

As I said, I'm not a child development expert. There are many theories as to development out there. I was pointing out that, according to one theorist (Piaget), this stage is totally normal. However, I think you'll find that most people agree that for babies wants and needs are the same thing. For older kids, wants and needs differentiate. A three year old can really, really want a cookie - that cookie is not a necessity like nursing or a diaper change is for a baby. I don't think that I'm not an attached parent because I recognize that wants and needs are different for three year olds, partly because Dr. Sears recognizes this fact, too.

I also want to make clear that I think that a child's wants are very real emotions, and should be honored as such. It's just that as they get older, wants are no longer life-or-death.

It shouldn't drive you crazy. If it is it's because you see things in black and white and aren't open enough to see shades of gray. And, I'm sorry, the human mind and human behavior is FULL of shades of gray. You can categorize and test a whole lot of things in the hard science arena, but human psychology isn't easy to pin down.

"It is extremely important to distinguish between facts and theories in science, and in every other subject also, because facts usually remain the same and theories often change. They are not always easy to differentiate, and even scientists forget to do it."

I AM a scientist (biotechnology specifically), and there are many scientific theories that are still, theories and prone to be rejected when someone has new information to support another view.

I'm not a child developmental expert, but I took a class on human development. I'm telling you Piaget is not the only "expert" on human development and even the EXPERTS disagree that his views are the only one that matter.

Here's a whole bunch of learning theories

http://www.learning-theories.com/

There's Freud's stages of psychosexual development, Erik Erickson's stages of psychosocial development, Piaget's stages of cognitive development.

And then there is Vygotsky's social development theory (that's contains scaffolding idea someone else mentioned).


Yes, there is some evidence that could be applied to support a side, but theories are debatable.

But even beyond that -

I want to know why the child is carrying on so much about going to daycare. If it's such a happy and wonderful place, why is the child so adamant about not going?

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by EVC

I actually just checked a few dictionaries and that is not my understanding of the definition. Here's what wictionary says:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate



So by that definition (specifically to influence to one's advantage), it is quite possibly a form of manipulation. Listen, I don't think ANYONE here is advocating placing moral responsibility on the child for this. We are using a definition of the behavior. She has (it seems) found an effective method of behaving to achieve her goal (influencing a situation to her advantage). I think that is actually an entirely NEUTRAL description of the action, rather than a moral judgment. Again, no one has yet placed ANY moral judgment on the child, simply used a term to describe the nature of the behavior. But, yes, perhaps we are simply getting into issues of semantics here.




We do NOT know anything more about the issue than the OP has described. We do not know if there are REAL problems at the daycare that must be addressed or which make the daycare an unsuitable place for this child to be. Many people have suggested that she look at that carefully first.

However, IF the daycare is a kind, caring, stimulating environment, and IF the needs of the family include having the child in daycare then yes I do believe the best thing to do is simply help the child adjust to the new situation.




Of course every child is unique, but we aren't talking about every child. We are talking about the OP's child and, going on the assumption that parents generally know their children better than anyone else, she stated this:



So I am inclined to believe her.



This may be your opinion, but lest we break out into another battle of Mommy Wars, I do hope you will respect the opinions and life circumstances of other parents for whom this kind of situation can not fairly be called:

Preschool/daycare is UNNECCESSARY for the CHILD. And that is not to say I didn't send my children to preschool. I do, at 4-4.5. But if I had a clear message that school was the issue, I would have found things out a lot sooner than I did (but better late than never).

I didn't say it was unnecessary for the parent. Obviously she has to do what she has to do to get by financially, but from the child's point of view, if she's doing everything to get out of it, it's not what the child needs at this point in her life.


I'm not arguing the necessity of the mom to send the child to daycare. I'm arguing the fact that she's calling the child manipulative for something THE PARENT put the child up to. The child of 3 would obviously prefer to spend the time at home with mom (or dad) her own toys and familiar environment and not in the daycare.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Polliwog

I was an early childhood education specialist for many years. It is really hard for some children to settle into preschool. The second day is often harder than the first and the second week is even harder than the first, for a lot of children. I recommend staying with her the first (or next day or two.) When you need to leave, take her with you. When she seems confident, leave for a little while and then come back. It won't take long until she's comfortable being there for long periods of time. Soon it will be the whole day. Not all children need this level of scaffolding, but it sounds like your DD does.

I think this is very good advice if you can manage it with your schedule, OP. This may be about the transition, rather than about anything particular with the child care.

I don't actually see anything constructive in calling this manipulative crying. She, at this point, doesn't want you to leave her at daycare. She will presumably get used to it, when the familiar outweighs the unfamiliar of the situation. She is telling you her discomfort by crying, which is likely an honest expression of her emotional tenor.

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by joensally

i don't actually see anything constructive in calling this manipulative crying. she, at this point, doesn't want you to leave her at daycare. She will presumably get used to it, when the familiar outweighs the unfamiliar of the situation. She is telling you her discomfort by crying, which is likely an honest expression of her emotional tenor.

yes!!! Exactly.

[Mama2Jesse]

So, are people going to continue to flip out over semantics, or help this woman?

I guess Mommy Wars are the order of the day.

[bzmum]

nermal, is your daughter crying, begging and pleading with you to take her home when you pick her up from daycare? Or has she enjoyed her day and happy to make new friends? We dealt with this issue, not when my son started daycare, but when he was about 2 years old. Like some of the previous posters, I would focus on the positive parts of daycare...playtime, new friends, stories, etc. and not so much on the negative. When I dropped my son off I would hug and kiss him, smile and talk for a few seconds to the daycare provider and any children by the door, tell my son to have a great day and that I'd see him later, and then leave. It tugged at my heartstrings to say goodbye while he cried and grabbed for me, however he stopped crying and became busy playing not long after I closed the door. The first day, I actually just stood there and listened. Plus, he was all smiles when I picked him up. I hope that you find that this gets better for you and your daughter. Its hard but you'll both get through it and she'll make new friends and learn new things...best of luck!

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Mama2Jesse

So, are people going to continue to flip out over semantics, or help this woman?

I guess Mommy Wars are the order of the day.

I don't see Mommy Wars here. Is it semantics, or is it that it's all in how you look at it? I work and both my kids did two days per week of daycare and two or three days of preschool when they were three and four. I used to spend a lot of time at pick up and drop off as I wanted to get the vibe of the place my kids spent so much time. I saw a lot of transitions and some kids need the quick, loving goodbye and others need longer with mom/dad to transition into being away from them.

I really believe that the way we conceive of something directs how we react. If a mom (general mom ) loads a child's behaviour with negative connotations, it's easy to focus on wanting to extinguish the behaviour (in this case crying). A three year old is expressing something honest - she doesn't want her mom to leave her at daycare. Daycare is unfamiliar, and mom rocks her world. Taking extra time over the first while is a good thing, the "scaffolding" a previous poster mentioned.

[Miss Information]

Originally Posted by joensally

I don't see Mommy Wars here. Is it semantics, or is it that it's all in how you look at it? I work and both my kids did two days per week of daycare and two or three days of preschool when they were three and four. I used to spend a lot of time at pick up and drop off as I wanted to get the vibe of the place my kids spent so much time. I saw a lot of transitions and some kids need the quick, loving goodbye and others need longer with mom/dad to transition into being away from them.

I really believe that the way we conceive of something directs how we react. If a mom (general mom ) loads a child's behaviour with negative connotations, it's easy to focus on wanting to extinguish the behaviour (in this case crying). A three year old is expressing something honest - she doesn't want her mom to leave her at daycare. Daycare is unfamiliar, and mom rocks her world. Taking extra time over the first while is a good thing, the "scaffolding" a previous poster mentioned.

Joensally, thank you.

Let me clarify for everyone. I'M NOT STARTING A MOMMY WAR. That is not my intention. My own experience was this:

My husband was laid off from work with no job prospect in sight for a 9 months after the birth of my first child (he got laid off 8/11, then 9/11 happened so the economy tanked). I had been a WOHM for 2.5 years.

I'm not saying anything AT ALL about WHY the child has to go to daycare (preschool, whatever). I'm just saying that from the child's perspective, it's a difficult transition. 3 is a tricky year, full of budding independence but it takes time to develop. Some children are really outgoing and group settings are fun, while others are not and it takes time to adjust.

This is the main reason I chose to hold off sending my kids to preschool until 4-4.5, when they had the extra year to mature. Now for dd2, that extra year was still tricky for her. She was the selectively mute child. But her experience is one of the reasons I have a lot of sympathy for the very young child who has adjustment issues to school.

[keilonwy]

Originally Posted by Miss Information

It shouldn't drive you crazy. If it is it's because you see things in black and white and aren't open enough to see shades of gray.

Sorry, but I find this comment pretty rude and uncalled for. I was pointing out that you were incorrectly calling a theory a hypothesis. This misunderstanding does drive me batty, because I hear it used by ignorant people to dismiss my field (evolution) so often! I don't think that makes me closed minded. I also said many times that I'm not a psychologist, that Piaget is what I'm familiar with, and that according to Piaget, lying to influence the situation in your favor is totally normal at this stage of development. I'm not claiming to know everything there is to know about child development at all. Regarding theory vs fact: science, as a discipline, has to be flexible. We may know something tomorrow that we don't know today, and we need to be able to adapt to that!

Miss Information, I'm really glad that not sending your kids to daycare has worked out so well for you. It's working well for me, too - we've had to make some sacrifices, but we were in a position where we could, thankfully. Unfortunately, some people don't have that option, and I don't think this thread was about the daycare debate anyway.

To everyone reading this: I'm sorry if I contributed to the Mommy Wars. My intent in replying really was clarification of my original post. Like all of you, I was trying to be helpful, and add what knowledge I had to the discussion! I'm sorry if it contributed to the discussion turning into something else, and won't be re-stating my points again.

[keilonwy]

Nermal: does your daughter empathize with books a lot? I just read one called "Llama Llama Misses Mama!" about a little llama who goes to daycare. It's really hard when Mama leaves, but she comes back and he can show her all the cool stuff at daycare! The pictures were beautiful, it was fun to read, and maybe would help your daughter to discuss her feelings about daycare in a calm setting.

[meemee]

OP you are doing fine.

just let your dd be.

let her figure it out.

she has figured out how to use crying, she will figure out that ploy does not work all the time.

she is absolutely right on for age.

i would say leave it. stop your fears that just because she is doing this now that is how she is going to be as an adult.

watch and wait. give her a chance to figure out.

i feel we worry too much about our kids and try to do too much for them.

we are always there to help them and guide them.

but first they must be given a chance to figure it out themselves.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I think even babies are capable of manipulation.

The question is why a parent has to resist it.

I suppose in the OP's situation you have to pay the bills and what needs to be done, needs to be done.

But trying to stuff the child's fear of abandonment, fear of new things, fear of a new caregiver, dislikes, needs, wants etc under the category of 'manipulation' isn't going to resolve anything.

I never thought of it that way before- great point.

[_betsy_]

Has she been able to tell you what, exactly, she doesn't like?

How long has she been going? What is your morning routine like?

Could it be that all the new morning rush is too tough on her? Could you try things like letting her pick out her clothes the night before, and not waking her until YOU are ready to go - giving her one-on-one time with you to get dressed, washed, fed, etc. without it being a frantic dash out the door? (My DD1 has a very difficult time with transitions, and if I have to rush her, she looses it, making it all more chaotic and frenzied than life needs to be - even if it's something she WANTS to do!)

If things are calm, relaxed and zen at your house in the morning, and she's still acting out, and she can't/won't explain what she doesn't like about daycare, can you take half a day to sit in with her? Many employers are accommodating to this sort of transition period for new workers.

[Miss Information]

I was pointing out that you were incorrectly calling a theory a hypothesis.

Exactly where did I say HYPOTHESIS? I said, in fact, there can be evidence to support multiple theories, but who's to say which one is one hundred percent correct?

"For many scientists, once a theory has been confirmed and reconfirmed over and over again, we get to the point that it will be treated as a "fact" for pretty much all contexts and purposes. Scientists may refer to Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, but in most contexts Einstein's ideas here are treated as fact - treated as if they are simply true and accurate descriptions about the world."

As far as "facts" are concerned, scientists will caution you that even though they will appear to be using the term in the same way as everyone else, there are background assumptions which are crucial. When most people refer to a "fact," the are talking about something which is definitely, absolutely and unquestionably true. For scientists, a fact is something which is assumed to be true, at least for the purposes of whatever they are doing at the moment, but which might be refuted at some point.

But treating a theory as fact doesn't make it so. It APPEARS to be under the circumstances, but it doesn't make it so unequivocably. It could be confirmed and validated a lot of times, but all it takes is one piece of heretofore undiscovered information that undermines the whole thing.


And psychology is less reproducible than hard science because it's subjective.

Unfortunately, some people don't have that option, and I don't think this thread was about the daycare debate anyway.

I never said it was. However, from a child's perspective, it isn't something that he or she needs. Because of that, if the child is having issues with it, we shouldn't call them manipulative, but try to figure out what is really wrong and help the child adjust.

[Tjej]

Sorry, but a theory is not a fact. It's just what Miss I said above - it can be treated as fact, but it isn't fact. I'm a scientist too and calling theories facts just rubs me sooo the wrong way. A fact might be what you observe in your lab notebook - on 7/27/09 at 8:00AM petri dish AB2481 had 10 white pinpoint colonies. A theory is a working assumption we use to make sense of life's facts. Not that it matters to the OP's issues, but I couldn't keep from piping in with that.

As far as your daughter being very emotionally in-tune and using that to her advantage... My DD does the same, and from what my parents say I did too. My mom says it kept them on their toes. It is hard to deal with when you know that they do have a legitimate concern, but they are also deliberately digging in their arsenal to decide how to best work over your emotions to get things how they want. My personal approach is also generally empathy + logic, but I suppose I am not as thorough with the empathy part as you seem to be. I'm more of a "don't dote on the negative side", so I'd likely hear out her dislikes about things, but not list them. I'd still list the positives, though, to give them more power, maybe.

HTH

Tjej

ETA: As far as general teaching about manipulation not being good - well, so far all we've really done is teach about lying being bad. But I do plan on instilling in her that it is wrong to take advantage of another's naivete. I believe this covers emotional manipulation.