"I have to have a fit. It's how I get what I want!"

[LynnS6]

Dd (5) was reporting a conversation that she had with her brother, where he reportedly said something like "You scream every day" (i.e. you throw a fit every day). She was disputing this at first, but then acknowledged that she does throw fits.

I mentioned casually "well, you know, you don't have to throw a fit. There are other things you could do."

Her response? "I have to throw a fit. It's how I get what I want!" : She's definitely right about that with her brother. About 1/2-2/3 of the time, he gives in and does what she wants.

Dh and I are much less flexible, but I do acknowledge that sometimes when she gets upset, I realize that she feels strongly and I change my mind. I don't change about big things that matter, but for something like a glass of milk 5 minutes before dinner, I do. (Usually I say 'no' because I'm too busy to get it for her, but she's getting better at getting it herself.)

How can we work with dd to minimize the fits?

I'm concerned about this (very perceptive) comment of hers. Would you be?

[tanyam926]

Like you, I would think hard about why my lo thought that.

My ds2 (almost 4 y.o.) is prone to fits and I try really hard to only say NO when it is something really important. I try to get this across to my dh bc it seems like his first thought is to say no to everything. I like to pick my battles bc they happen so often.

When I do say no I am determined to stick to it and not give in. If it's something I want to reconsider I try to talk to him about it and ask him if we can both come up w/a way that is a compromise so he sees that his tantrum is not the way to get what he wants.

We are in the thick of the tantrum issue and there seems to be good weeks and bad weeks, we have had a couple of bad weeks lately(but we have all been under stress...).

It's very frustrating, esp since this is new for me bc my ds1 is not usually a tantrum thrower.

[Starflower]

I think that since she recognizes that throwing a fit is a way to get what she wants, she may be able to understand that there are alternatives. She will probably need to practice using other ways of communicating, but it seems like she would be able to understand that other people feel bad when she tantrums.

My DD is 6 now and tends to be a drama queen. She seems to have developed a habit of fussing first, then negotiating. We're working with her to stop herself and calm down so she can tell us plainly what it is she wants. We explain to her that we're more likely to work with her if she is respectful. I think we've made some pretty good progress together. However, DD does often get her way with other kids she doesn't know well because she will begin to fuss. We're working with her on this, but we can't be there every time.

This makes me think you may want to include her brother in the process, giving him some ideas of how to deal with your DD's behavior as well. What kind of communication would be acceptable to him to help her get what she wants? How can they negotiate a compromise?

Obviously, sometimes her brother will not be willing to compromise and she might choose to have a fit. In that case, maybe her brother could just walk away? Helping her to see that having a fit has been her first choice of actions may help her see that there can be alternative choices. It seems like she's already aware of this on some level from her comments.

And of course, kids throw fits sometimes because they have lost control of their emotions, but I think there is a difference between the occasional tantrum that results from emotions getting built up and the tantrum thrown as a way to manipulate another person.

[ASusan]

I hesitate to give advice because you so often have good advice or great things to add to the discussion. I'm not sure I could live up...

Brother is probably old enough to understand principles of reinforcement and reinforcement schedules. He has her on a variable reinforcement schedule (and you might, too!), and these are the BEST for maintaining behavior. (slot machine users as an example).

I know this forum is 'gentle discipline' and not behaviorism 101, but I think you and your son (and maybe husband) could look at how often you do give in or change your mind after a fit, and you might see that you're keeping the level of fit behavior pretty high this way. There is nothing ungentle about changing the schedule.

[Magella]

I would definitely be concerned (mostly b/c that's just how I am, I get concerned--especially if it's an issue that's been difficult for us for awhile). I'd also probably be chuckling (to hear her say that so explicitly, I mean).

I have a 5 year old fit-thrower (and tantrums are one of two things that really push my buttons). She's doing a lot better these days, but you can still count on a fit a day (but not as lengthy as they used to be-not quite an all-out tantrum these days). I am somewhat concerned that on some level she thinks fit-throwing works for her, and I think to some extent it has worked for her both with siblings and with us parents. But also, she's an emotional kid and I think it is hard for her to handle frustration more calmly.

Sometimes I do change my mind, when it's clear that the issue is important to her and not so much to me or when I realize we can compromise. I don't think this is a problem, in itself, but I do think how I handle that can be. If she's just pitching a fit and I change my mind without addressing her behavior, I do think that lets her know that pitching a fit works. I've been guilty of that definitely. What I've been working very hard at being consistent about is letting her know that I am willing to listen to her and to work with her, as long as she calms down/stays calm and speaks to me reasonably politely. So I say things like "I will listen to you when you're calm and speaking more politely" or "we can work this out when you calm down and talk to me" or "calm down so we can talk" or "I'll talk to you about it when you're calm." Or a simple "please ask me nicely." And then I do not engage in any more discussion of the issue until she is reasonably calm. If needed, I'll remind her to take deep breaths (and breathe along with her). When it comes to the fits she throws in interactions with her siblings, I separate her from them, listen to her and empathize, and then (when she's calmer) I can help her figure out other ways she can handle the issue--then she can go try again, if she wants. I focus a lot on helping her learn to calm down, learn to say what she's feeling and wanting in appropriate ways. It's slow, but it works.

When the answer is no and I'm not going to change my mind, I let her know that and empathize with her. But then I do ignore the tantrum, if she has one. I let her know I'm there for her, and I love her, but I do ignore her tantrum. I do say "I'm done talking about it." I'm not actually sure when I last had to do this with her, it's been a couple of months I think. *knocks on wood*

I'm happy to say that she has really reduced the number of tantrums. Although she's still easily upset, her frustration tolerance does seem to be increasing. And she is calming herself more easily and quickly, and she's better able to talk about her feelings and wants without going over the edge into a tantrum. I'm sure maturity is playing a huge role in her improvement, but I do think our approach is helping.

[One_Girl]

My dd definitely figured this out when she was young. I find that the best way to help her to stop having so many tantrums when we fall into a cycle of tantrums being reinforced as a way for her to get what she wants is to be extra careful to not reinforce any tantrum and careful to reinforce the idea that talking to me to negotiate a solution yields a solution that is positive for both of us.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I'm concerned about this (very perceptive) comment of hers. Would you be?

I'm not sure.

I think many kids who have behaviors that they have minimal control over will say that they have control over the behavior. Its less scary to them to believe they are making a choice, rather than it being something that "happens" to them.

So just because she has stated that she does it to get what she wants doesn't mean its true. She might not exactly be making a thought-out plan in advance to deal with, "no; you can't have that." It might very well be a genuine frustration response that comes upon her and that she doesn't think she can stop.

But in either case, whether she can throw fits at will or whether they happen to her, the response is basically the same, and I think you are doing it. If its really important to her, you re-evaluate. But the majority of the time you empathize and sometimes problem-solve with her, but don't give in.

If the behavior is really under her control, you should see it happen much more frequently with the people its most successful with and much less frequently with the people its least successful with. If you don't see any difference in frequency between different people, then you can probably assume she doesn't have as much control over it as she would like to believe.

[Starflower]

Originally Posted by Magella

I would definitely be concerned. I'd also probably be chuckling (to hear her say that so explicitly, I mean).

I have a 5 year old fit-thrower. She's doing a lot better these days, but you can still count on a fit a day (but not as lengthy as they used to be-not quite an all-out tantrum these days). I am somewhat concerned that on some level she thinks fit-throwing works for her, and I think to some extent it has worked for her both with siblings and with us parents.

Sometimes I do change my mind, when it's clear that the issue is important to her and not so much to me or when I realize we can compromise. I don't think this is a problem, in itself, but I do think how I handle that can be. If she's just pitching a fit and I change my mind without addressing her behavior, I think that lets her know that pitching a fit works. I've been guilty of that definitely. What I've been working very hard at being consistent about is letting her know that I am willing to listen to her and to work with her, as long as she calms down/stays calm and speaks to me reasonably politely. So I say things like "I will listen to you when you're calm and speaking more politely" or "we can work this out when you calm down and talk to me" or "calm down so we can talk" or "I'll talk to you about it when you're calm." Or a simple "please ask me nicely." And then I do not engage in any more discussion of the issue until she is reasonably calm. If needed, I'll remind her to take deep breaths (and breathe along with her). When it comes to the fits she throws in interactions with her siblings, I separate her from them, listen to her and empathize, and then (when she's calmer) I can help her figure out other ways she can handle the issue--then she can go try again, if she wants. I focus a lot on helping her learn to calm down, learn to say what she's feeling and wanting in appropriate ways. It's slow, but it works.

When the answer is no and I'm not going to change my mind, I let her know that and empathize with her. But then I do ignore the tantrum, if she has one. I let her know I'm there for her, and I love her, but I do ignore her tantrum. I do say "I'm done talking about it."

I'm happy to say that she has really reduced the number of tantrums. Although she's still easily upset, her frustration tolerance does seem to be increasing. And she is calming herself more easily and quickly, and she's better able to talk about her feelings and wants without going over the edge into a tantrum. I'm sure maturity is playing a huge role in her improvement, but I do think our approach is helping.

You did a better job of saying what I was thinking.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by ASusan

I hesitate to give advice because you so often have good advice or great things to add to the discussion. I'm not sure I could live up...

ah, but you see, my internet persona is a much more together parent than I feel like I am in real life! I lose it a lot with my kids!

Originally Posted by ASusan

Brother is probably old enough to understand principles of reinforcement and reinforcement schedules. He has her on a variable reinforcement schedule (and you might, too!), and these are the BEST for maintaining behavior. (slot machine users as an example).

Yes, I think you're right. I'm a psycholinguist, so I know about variable reinforcement! I will talk to ds about avoiding variable reinforcement and sticking to his guns. He probably needs help doing this, though. He is, unfortunately, extremely sound sensitive and so her tantrums hit him where it 'hurts'.

I'm trying hard NOT to do the variable reinforcement, but need to look at my behavior to see if I am.

Originally Posted by Magella

I would definitely be concerned (mostly b/c that's just how I am, I get concerned--especially if it's an issue that's been difficult for us for awhile). I'd also probably be chuckling (to hear her say that so explicitly, I mean).

Yes, that's exactly how I feel. Horrified amusement probably describes my reaction best!

Originally Posted by Magella

What I've been working very hard at being consistent about is letting her know that I am willing to listen to her and to work with her, as long as she calms down/stays calm and speaks to me reasonably politely. So I say things like "I will listen to you when you're calm and speaking more politely" or "we can work this out when you calm down and talk to me" or "calm down so we can talk" or "I'll talk to you about it when you're calm." Or a simple "please ask me nicely." And then I do not engage in any more discussion of the issue until she is reasonably calm.

thank you, this is very helpful. I hate to get in the mindset of "I said X and so now I need to stick to X to teach her fits don't work." This gives me a way to separate the tantrum from the change in decision.

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

If the behavior is really under her control, you should see it happen much more frequently with the people its most successful with and much less frequently with the people its least successful with. If you don't see any difference in frequency between different people, then you can probably assume she doesn't have as much control over it as she would like to believe.

Interesting perspective. I do wonder how much of it is under her control and how much is that she wants to control it, but can't.

I think that partly it's not under her control, and partly it is. I definitely see an increased frequency with her brother. It is getting less with dh and me, and depends to a large extent on how tired she is, how busy we've been, how bored she is, and to a lesser extent how hungry she is.

Her comment was definitely in relationship to the fits she throws with her brother, so I suspect her self-assessment was pretty accurate!

[nextcommercial]

I had a four year old tell me the same thing. (not my own child)

So, I said... "Hmm... how come?"

She said "Because if I don't be crazy mom and dad say I'm not serious".

So, in other words, they ONLY thought she REALLLLLY wanted something if it was worth having a meltdown. But, if she just asked nicely, they assumed it wasn't very important, and they said "no". It could be anything from dinner, to a new toy. If she didn't overreact, she probably wasn't going to be taken seriously"

Then when I told her mom about our conversation, she thought about it for a while, and said "Ya know what??? She's right... we are so tired from her tantrums, that we ignore her when she's not rocking the boat".

It hasn't changed much yet... this conversation was only a few weeks ago, but, at least everybody understands what's going on.

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

:

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie
If the behavior is really under her control, you should see it happen much more frequently with the people its most successful with and much less frequently with the people its least successful with. If you don't see any difference in frequency between different people, then you can probably assume she doesn't have as much control over it as she would like to believe.

Interesting perspective. I do wonder how much of it is under her control and how much is that she wants to control it, but can't.

I think that partly it's not under her control, and partly it is. I definitely see an increased frequency with her brother. It is getting less with dh and me, and depends to a large extent on how tired she is, how busy we've been, how bored she is, and to a lesser extent how hungry she is.

Her comment was definitely in relationship to the fits she throws with her brother, so I suspect her self-assessment was pretty accurate!

You do realize here, that self-control is variable within the individual. The child is more in control (of their own behavior) when they are well-rested, fed, not bored...

And I do think that self-control can be variable depending on social environment, and this includes social partners/relationships. Thus, it would be possible for a child to display more self-control for one parent (e.g., dad) than for another (e.g., mom). Of course, this should suggest to the mom that she can expect/demand more self control. The problem is how to do that.

(Other examples - not so relevant here - of self-control varying by social environment is that children display more control in school/daycare than they do at home. My son, at 21 mos., displays much more self-control when he and I are in public places than when we are at home (thank goodness!).

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by ASusan

You do realize here, that self-control is variable within the individual. The child is more in control (of their own behavior) when they are well-rested, fed, not bored...

And I do think that self-control can be variable depending on social environment, and this includes social partners/relationships. Thus, it would be possible for a child to display more self-control for one parent (e.g., dad) than for another (e.g., mom). Of course, this should suggest to the mom that she can expect/demand more self control. The problem is how to do that.

(Other examples - not so relevant here - of self-control varying by social environment is that children display more control in school/daycare than they do at home. My son, at 21 mos., displays much more self-control when he and I are in public places than when we are at home (thank goodness!).

Oh yes, I realize that. So, I think that when dd does it with us, it's mostly because her reserves are used up. (She's tired, hungry, overstimulated, or just plain short on 'mommy time'.) She also NEVER exhibits this behavior at daycare (where she goes 3x a week). I'm actually going to talk to her daycare teachers next week about her behavior because I've noticed a pattern that when she's bored at 'school', she's terrible at home. She's going to be there for K next year, and we need to set up with her new teacher ways to keep her on a more even keel.

But with her brother and the neighbor kids, dd has a lot 'less' self control. I'm sensing a pattern here.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Oh yes, I realize that. So, I think that when dd does it with us, it's mostly because her reserves are used up. (She's tired, hungry, overstimulated, or just plain short on 'mommy time'.) She also NEVER exhibits this behavior at daycare (where she goes 3x a week). I'm actually going to talk to her daycare teachers next week about her behavior because I've noticed a pattern that when she's bored at 'school', she's terrible at home. She's going to be there for K next year, and we need to set up with her new teacher ways to keep her on a more even keel.

But with her brother and the neighbor kids, dd has a lot 'less' self control. I'm sensing a pattern here.

Is it possible that she is acting differently at home because of reasons other than daycare. I find that many parents, myself included, are quick to blame anyone else except themselves and what they are doing at home. When my dd acts out in certain locations the root of the problem is almost always in the location she is acting out in and her teacher's and I have been successful every time with addressing the problem with that in mind. Perhaps it is home that is set up so your dd isn't going to succeed as well as she does at school right now. I know that isn't the funnest thing to think about, but if she is only doing this at home, then you should look at home for the cause before going to the location she is doing well in and trying to find somewhere else to lay the blame.

[Ruthla]

I think you also need to be more aware of how and when you say "no" to her. Do you often say "no" when you mean "maybe" or "not for another 5 minutes"? If you said "I'm busy now, but I can help you in a few minutes" you may be able to minimize a lot of the "changing your mind after 5 minutes when she tantrums." I'd also ask her to calm down and ask nicely before getting her anything.

With the "glass of milk 5 minutes before dinner", try saying "Sure honey, help yourself" instead of "no, I can't get it for you."

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

Is it possible that she is acting differently at home because of reasons other than daycare. I find that many parents, myself included, are quick to blame anyone else except themselves and what they are doing at home.

Actually, if you read my post, I'm not blaming daycare, other than that on those days when dd has a 'good' day at daycare, i.e. she's been engaged and stimulated, she has an easier time at home. And vice versa. And 'good' vs. 'not good' is actually not in terms of behavior, but how much she's been able to be engaged. There are a couple of kids she clashes with, and she tends to choose to play by herself rather than with a group that includes them. BUT she's an extrovert, and so that uses up a lot of her reserves. So, we get home and she's much needier in terms of attention. In particular, she wants her big brother to play with her. And he, being an introvert, often isn't up to the task!

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I think you also need to be more aware of how and when you say "no" to her. Do you often say "no" when you mean "maybe" or "not for another 5 minutes"? If you said "I'm busy now, but I can help you in a few minutes" you may be able to minimize a lot of the "changing your mind after 5 minutes when she tantrums." I'd also ask her to calm down and ask nicely before getting her anything.

Thanks - I am working on that. She does need to hear 'yes' more often.

Unfortunately, sometimes I get in patterns where I figure we're going to have a fit, so I might as well say "no" now. That's because sometimes when I do say "I'll be glad to help in 5 minutes," she begins whining and carrying on because that's "too long". This pushes my buttons in ways I can only begin to describe. I yelled at her the other day (just her name) and stomped off to my room to cool down for just this very behavior. I had asked for 5 minutes, she acted as if the world was coming to an end! So, she went to Dad for solace, and then out to play with a neighbor. When she came back in she said to me 'Shouldn't you say 'sorry' for yelling at me?' I did, but we also talked about why I was so frustrated!

[meemee]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I'm concerned about this (very perceptive) comment of hers. Would you be?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! i feel it is every child's birth right!!! isnt that every human's birth right?

she has every right to get what she wants. she just has to figure out what is the best way to do it. and for her she has figured out how to do it effectively. she is a smart kid. and she is just being honest - which is so sweet in its naiveity.

heck i am celebrating her attitude. it means she is going to do ok in society in future. she is figuring out how to get her way. she will stop at nothing to figure a way out.

its just teaching her to make the right choices. the right way to get those pair of jeans is not to break into ur neighbours house and steal them, but to maybe work a paper route and save up and buy yourself one.

its amazing how she was able to articulate it.

and as for me - i would do nothing about it directly. i see it as a brother sister dynamics that they need to work out between themselves.

yeah it would be a good idea to talk to ur son indirectly and ask him not to give in so easily, but i am not sure. but then he might have sound sensitivities that cant handle so much screaming and so he gives in. and if she has figured that out to then i am in awe of your dd. she is brilliant!!!