8y.o. and grandmother and respect/discipline issues

[bellflower]

My 8 y.o. has developed these sometimes weird feelings with my mom. My mom is very particular about clothes, the way the kids look, etc. and my dd is a self-proclaimed tomboy. She's gotten to where she'll purposefully pick out the most messed up clothes she has to go see my mom. I've talked to my mom about easing off on remarks about their clothes and just letting her be who she is. Recently my dd has been not wanting to hug my mom sometimes when she's over there, (she does the same with me, i feel it's just an independent phase), and she's been saying things like you're so picky. or you're just so fancy, i don't want to be fancy. sometimes she gets mad and kind of sulks. but i have to say this is not all the time...it happens just occasionally and my method of dealing with it is explaining how to be more polite about it. one time she got really kind of disrespectful to my mom and i told her she'd have to take a break from seeing her till she was ready to show her love and be respectful all the time. it improved.

then yesterday my mom told my dd to wipe her mouth and held out a dirty napkin(that had already wiped someone else's mouth). my dd not so politely said she didn't want to use that napkin. i was just about to correct her but my mom tried to joke it off and said we all come from the same tree. my dd said "you come from a fancy tree." my mom blew up, called her the most argumentative child she'd ever met, grabbed her stuff and left. since then, she called me and has told me that i am way too soft, i need to talk more sternly, give her harder punishments, sending her to her room is not enough, telling me i need to get help, that kids' consciences are formed by age 6, and it may just be too late--basically telling me that i've been a terrible parent.

my dd can be overly sassy and i guess i continue to alternate between sending her to her room and explaining to her why it's not ok to say something and making her try with nicer words. my mom says i should be raising my voice more and taking away playing with friends for a week if she is disrespectful like that.

i guess i honestly felt like that situation just needed to be talked over with help in phrasing things nicer, but maybe i am way too soft. maybe it is my fault of being too soft that she does get sassy or disrespectful. It is also really painful when your own mother is basically telling you that your parenting is lousy.

any thoughts or sharing similar experiences and how you deal with them would help. thanks.

[*Erin*]

your mom needs to remember that your dd is just a little girl. it doesn't seem very mature of your mom to storm away in a huff, or to be so critical of your parenting. my mom behaves similarly toward my almost 7 yr old dd sometimes, and it makes dd feel so angry. and me as well. i don't feel like my mother is OWED automatic respect or that dd must obey her in every way. and i would be furious if my mom suggested a punishment for dd after dd "sassed" her. to me that is crossing a big boundary.

also, what if you'd handed your mother a funky napkin and told her to wipe her mouth on it?!

i am dd's mother more than i am my mother's daughter now. i act first to protect and nurture dd, and i recognize my mom's behaviors as being sometimes controlling and aggressive, so i deal accordingly. if it makes my mother angry, so be it.

my mom and dd's personalities just clash sometimes, and that's the way it is. i have had to have some talks with my mom about letting dd be, and i've spoken to dd as well, and let her know that if my mom is getting on her nerves, she can be excused to go play in her room until she goes, but that she can't yell at her, or be very rude.

it's a tough situation, i know.

[Kirsten]

It is hard to say without being there. Is your dd using a rude tone of voice? "You're so fancy" could be said in a nice way and be taken as a compliment - or with a sneer and an eye roll and be an insult.

And 8 is not a "little girl" IMO. 8 year olds know FULL WELL (or should) what is respectful and what isn't. I tell my kids their thoughts are their own, and whatever they feel/think is fine - but it isn't always nice to let it come out of your mouth - whether you are a kid or an adult. There isn't a nice way to say someone is fat or has a messy house. Just keep it to yourself. But declining a food you don't like or standing up for yourself in regards to your own choices re: hairstyle or clothing can be done without being rude.

There is a way to say it nicely - "no thanks, Gramma. I'll get a new one." is going to be taken better than "that's DISGUSTING!"

Your dd should be able to be a tomboy, wear what she wants, be herself without your mom having a problem with it - basic respect. Your mom should be respected with a nice greeting (not necessarily a hug but grammas sure love those), good tone of voice, answer questions/make conversation, use manners, etc. (assuming she is respectful to dd and has realistic expectations that if a child is hungry or tired, they are not at their best).

Only you know if your dd's behavior falls into respectful territory or not. If not, on a regular basis not just now and again when she is overly tired, then I think your mom could have a point.

[intentionalmama]

When I read your post, I kind of feel sorry for your daughter. It sounds like she may feel that she is not good enough or acceptable to your mom because of the comments she has made in the past. I think your mom made a mistake with the napkin. My ds6 would be embarrassed if someone told him to wipe his mouth and I know I would not like someone to hand me a dirty napkin. While not intentional, your mother has been disrespectful to your daughter in the way she has criticized the way she looks. Your daughter blowing up - while not the best way - to me, is kind of understandable. I think your mothers words are taken as criticism of her not measuring up again. So even telling her to wipe her mouth, may appear to be once again finding fault with her. In one way it may be better that she is letting her frustration out, rather then absorbing negative messages of not being "good enough".

[intentionalmama]

I thought about your post last night after I went to bed and I wanted to add one idea that may really help the relationship between your mom and child. If I seem totally off base please just ignore.

It seems that your mother is critical not only of your daughter but also of you. Even as an adult you see how painful it can feel to be criticized by someone you love. I think of the diagram of someone pointing a finger at someone and not recognizing the three fingers in the hand pointing back at themselves. While your mother may have eased off on the remarks she makes to your daughter, the seeds of disapproval of who she is may have been planted. She may not be aware of how her remarks can be so painful.

I think what would help is if your mother could see how she may have affected her connection with her grand daughter and tried to make a real amends. If she could really connect with her feelings of love for your daughter and apologize, from that place, for criticizing her. And most of all really let your daughter know how much she loves her; regardless of what she does or wears. That she has a beautiful grand daughter and that she is fortunate to have her in her life. She may also add in if she ever says something that hurts your daughter, she would like her to let he know. And that she would really try to be more aware.

I would also suggest that what you could do when dealing with your daughter after she behaves in a less than desirable way is before trying to suggest alternative ways for her to express herself, first really try to connect with where her behavior may be coming from. (ie) I am wondering if your feelings are hurt when bla bla. After she feels heard and feels your support it may be easier to brainstorm other ways of dealing with the situation. Just some ideas. Hope all goes well.

[enigo]

The grandmother is supposed to be the adult. Storming out in a huff is her problem, not your daughter's.

[Evergreen]

I agree that the problem seems to be with your mother not with your daughter. She needs to lighten up and not comment at all on your dd's appearance.

That said you should probably discuss how the situation with the napkin could have been better addressed with your daughter. She needs to understand that being 'fancy' is part of who your mother is just like being a tomboy is part of who your daughter is.

From the post I'd say
1.nobody (children included) should have to hug anyone they don't want

2. if your mother stops pestering your dd about how she dresses she will stop going out of her way to dress sloppy around your mother

3. dd needs to understand that if someone hurts her feelings she can be the better person by not being snotty back and letting the person know why she feels wronged

4. your mother should be told that she can not undermine your parenting in front of your children (or not in front of them for that matter)

[cristeen]

Respect is not a one way street. Your mother obviously has some issues showing basic respect for your DD's feelings or opinions, particularly where they differ from her own. She (g'mother) is demonstrating to her (DD) how to be disrespectful... what did she expect, that she'd only apply it to others? Or is this a "do as I say and not as I do" situation?

Either way, I think you need to stand up for both yourself and your DD. Your mother is the one instigating these confrontations, I can't blame your DD for responding antagonistically if she's feeling judged... I do the same, and I'm a lot older than 8.

[ssh]

It sounds like your mom has been disrespectful and unacceptingly toward your DD. Your DD probably feels that her grandmother doesn't really like her. It's probably necessary for your DD's self image that she stand up for her right to be accepted as herself. Being verbally rude and withholding affection from someone who is rude and critical of you is a type of emotional self defense. It's sad your DD has had to defend herself this way. It's right that you shouldn't be rude to people, if they are offensive you should leave and not be around them.

Instead of telling your DD "she'd have to take a break from seeing her(your mom) till she was ready to show her love and be respectful all the time.", you should have told your mom this the first time she was rude to your DD. If some one can't treat our DD respectfully and appropriately we don't see them. I don't let people treat me in a controlling or emotionally abusive way and do not want my DD to either.

[bellflower]

thanks for the support and comments. while i think i do need to continue to work on my dd's ways of expressing herself more respectfully (or just politely checking out to do something else if she gets stressed out), i also do see that it's not just my feeling defensive about my mom's behavior. a lot of you seemed to sense too the criticism that my dd and i are both feeling from her. because yes, intentional mama, you are right that she is critical of me too.

i was just telling my dh tonight that all this is bringing up the times she says things to me that have the underlying message that i need improvement (suggestions i highlight my hair b/c i look tired, that i need a new house, and more overt criticisms of where i attend church, etc.). it kind of brings up the hurt of your parent not really approving of you.

i don't know that she'll change the way that she feels about me, but i can see more clearly now that at least i need to stand up more for my dd if she is criticizing her appearance or choice of clothes,etc. the hurt that comes up for me also makes me realize that i need to be so careful not to do the same to my dd, to make sure i don't fall into that trap. i am very supportive of whatever she wants to wear, etc. but i need to make sure i am very affirming so she doesn't feel that same kind of hurt from me.

one day i was encouraging her to comb her hair and get the tangles out (she hates to have me do it and doesn' t like to be told to work on it more herself, which I feel is just part of being a parent to any kid, no matter how they choose to look or express themselves, you just have to get the knots out from time to time, ykwim?) but she made the comment you just want me to be different than who i am......... wow. i don't feel like my issues with tangles were about changing her, just more about taking care of herself and her hair, and i tried to express that. but that shows me that she is very aware of who she is and of perceived disapproval right now as she is developing her self-image. and so i and my mom and everyone need to do our best to just support her on her path of becoming who she is and so, this week and the responses on the forum have been helpful in helping me realize some things about that, even if it hurt a little. the ongoing journey of parenting.... such constant inner work it creates...

(by the way, she just got a short haircut that is tangle-free and she loves so we're not having any more hair and tangle issues,which is nice )

also maybe i'll start another thread about ways of handling respect issues.....

[ssh]

Hearing your mom's criticism has probably made your DD feel defensive so she's misinterpreting your comments. Your mom's criticism sounds deliberately manipulative. She's trying to change or control you and your DD. A person can't do that accidentally. You can tell your DD, during a happy calm moment, that you love her just the way she is and wouldn't want her to be any one else. Tell her if something you say sounds critical that you don't mean it that way, you're just trying to be helpful. For example tangles are less painful to get out when they're small.

You are probably already teaching some big respect lessons by modeling respect toward your DD. Your concerns about her self image and self expression show your respect for her as a person.

[intentionalmama]

Originally Posted by bellflower

also maybe i'll start another thread about ways of handling respect issues.....

Respect - to me, is such an important thing. A wonderful little book "Connection Parenting" by Pam Leo, is really great with showing how adults can be so disrespectful to kids. It is up to us to model and really try to be respectful with them. Just like when they are younger, are they tired, hungry, did something happen earlier that upset them. What is really going on when they act out?

A few weeks ago, I was at my nephew's lacrosse game with my ds and sister. My sister and I don't see each other very often and we parent quite differently. At one point my ds came up to me and said "Water." I said "What about water?" He said "give me water" I could imagine my sister thinking how disrespectful he was being. I literally felt my stomach tighten. But I could feel that my main concern was what my sister would think of me if I didn't correct him. I didn't want to speak to him from this place, so I swallowed and decided to give him the water. With a mental notation to talk to him about this later. Well, after the game when my ds and I were leaving I addressed it with him. I told him that I felt disrespected. He had a blank look on his face and said "mummy, I didn't know." I said how could you not know, we don't treat you like that. Do we? He was silent. I said well do we? And I started realizing how we often bark directions to him. "Teeth Brush" " Let's go, now." "Bedtime, Time to go." Bring me that , etc. etc.. I said, do I sound like that with you. He said yes. I said, wow, I had no idea. I really didn't like the way it sounded when you told me to give me water today. He said, I feel the same way when you tell me to brush my teeth. So I just said, thanks for telling me. I'll try to be more aware. My way of telling him things; was exactly the same way we often spoke with him.

In the example you gave of your daughter telling your mom that "she is from a fancy tree" given how your mother has been with her - instead of looking her comments as disrespectful I would say they are her being honest. When she wears her really "messed up clothes", this action seems to be more passive aggressive. In the napkin incidents she is basically saying "enough, back off, I am not like you." I think her response was actually quite healthy. When we are criticized by people when we are young, we often don't realize that what they are saying is wrong. It may make us angry, but we often feel bad ourselves for not being able to live up to those expectations. It's often not until we are in our late 20's 30's and even older that we are able to really understand what was happening to us and be able to speak from an authentic place and really name our feelings.

my dd can be overly sassy and i guess i continue to alternate between sending her to her room and explaining to her why it's not ok to say something and making her try with nicer words.


So in this example I would wonder what is the underlying reason for her being sassy? To me connection with the child is the most important, sending her to her room - may have the opposite affect. When I was a kid, I was often sent to my room and told to come down when I wasn't angry. So this resulted in me having a difficult time expressing anger in my life. I can only imagine what it would have been like to have had my parents really try to connect with me during those lonely times.

Three other points, I want to make:

1) Remember you and dh are the biggest influences of your dd life. You are her models. If your mother is treating you disrespectfully, she is watching and absorbing even unconsciously how you react. I think kids are our biggest teachers and they point out uncomfortable areas in our lives that we often have to face and grow through.

On a personal note my father was also very critical of me growing up. I know he loved me and it was his own fears that lay behind his comments. I did some work around this to really understand what was going on. It did affect me and I ended up talking to him about it. He was upset and really had no idea. I was able to tell him from a really grounded place with love. Is he better now? Well, a bit? But he hasn't done the work he probably would need to do to deal with his own stuff. He at times can be critical, but I am able to call him on it. In the few times he has done it with my ds, this has been nipped in the butt immediately. Usually by my dh or I saying that we disagree, etc. I think the situation with your daughter may also be a chance for you to nurture your own inner child.

2) Kids can get quite disrespectful with the whole peer attachment. Hold on To your Kids , by Gorden Neufeld really stresses the importance of connecting with our kids, especially during the times they are pulling away. So if it is a peer issue, this may be a good book to peruse.

3) In the example you gave of the hair washing. It is really good that your daughter is able to tell you how she is feeling, and to hear from you that that is not your intention. It is wonderful that a solution was found that makes her happy and solves the situation.

Good luck

[LilyGrace]

Both your mom and dd sound hurt. They've both hurt each other's feelings and now are on tenterhooks around each other.

HOWEVER, you are not parenting your mom, right? Just your dd? I do think that perhaps you do need to apply some other tactics when it comes to her behavior and how she handles things. She and your mom may never get along, but she will need to learn how to deal with people like that in a respectful manner.

My one question is why talk it out with her each time or send her to her room? That puts the responsibility of the behavior on you and under your control, not hers. 8yos are very capable of taking a deep breath and figuring out what to do on their own, with minimal help. They've already had the lessons instilled in them several times over. A quick "that is unacceptable here. Fix it" is all that is needed to get them thinking in the right direction. If they need to leave the room, fine, that option is there for them to choose, but honestly, I was put off because it sounds like your dd has a free pass to treat your mother how she pleases because it'll just be explained that she needs to be polite. Again. There's no owning up to the issue because mom is taking care of it. Put it in her hands, make her responsible for her behavior and you responsible for enforcing respectful limits.

And I agree that children learn by example, and you need to model in front of her how you garner the respect you do from your mother, and what your personal limits are/how you handle them being stepped on. She needs to see that the behavior isn't just expected of her, but of everyone.