Did anyone else refuse consent even though their so wanted to circ? - Page 2

[Mrsboyko]

Word for word, right down to the guilt trip of "you make all the decisions. Why can't I have this one little thing". To which I responded "what, just a small chunk of HIS flesh". It was kind of a low blow, but it is true, he wanted a piece of his skin and this is just not right. It is not my decision to make, just as it is not his, it is our sons choice and I did not allow anyone to take that choice from him.

DS has to have surgery when he is 18 months or so to correct his syndactyly (fusion of fingers). DH tried to convince me that we could have the circc done then cuz "well, he'll be under anesthesia already, no pain!" That was said when DS was about 3 months old, so I don't think he is completely over it. DH has changed maybe 5 diapers in the last 5 months out of necessity (then again he never changed DD either).

[Epona]

It's tough. I would *hate* for my DH to ever feel that my say was final, and his opinion out of the question. But on this topic, you know that it's *RIGHT*. And in the end, you just have to go with that. But is sucks. I can only assume that these guys will come around. Someday. Maybe the day their son tells them that they are grateful that they are intact.

[bandgeek]

My son's dad wasn't quite so wordy, but I think he felt the same way. We argued, we yelled. I tried to get him to see reason. At some point I just said, "You know what, it doesn't matter, nothing you can say will make me sign that consent form."

He pouted for a while but did not bring it up again. After our son was born, he didn't say anything. Life went on. When DS was about 7 months, I thought he might have a UTI (he didn't) and ex was all freaked out thinking we'd have to circ him because of it. Because it was ok to do as a newborn, but not on a 7 month old? Anyway, I explained why it wouldn't ever be necessary for something like that and he calmed down. Apparently I didn't do the best job of dispelling all the myths.

Anyway, at some point ex came around and he eventually THANKED me for standing up to him. It wasn't real to him before DS was born that this was a real, living baby who would feel pain and eventually have opinions and thoughts on the matter. DS is 4 now and quite vocal that he loves his penis and he couldn't imagine putting him through that.

They didn't really bond until DS was a bit older, maybe 2-3 months? But I think at that point he became *seriously* protective of him and I think if I'd said, "Hey let's go do it now" he would have thought I'd gone crazy.

I think you are doing the right thing. It's so easy for some parents to just hand over their newborn simply because they haven't had time to get to know the little guy and be sympathetic to his cries. Even if parents just had to wait 2 weeks to do it, I think the circ rate would drop dramatically.

Give him time to get to know his son and see that foreskins aren't scary or dirty. He'll get over it, I think.

[claddaghmom]

DH and I strongly believe in following the policy of joint agreement, a term coined by Dr. Harley (www.marriagebuilders.com).

HOWEVER, as genital mutilation on a newborn is abusive, I would NOT consent at all even if DH disagreed. You wouldn't give in if DH demanded to cut your son's eyelids off, right? I mean, how in the world would you clean those eyelids? Pour water under them??


Or those nasty fingers! They have got to go as soon as your son is born!

[ashleedio]

Originally Posted by perspective

Well, what it sounds like is from the start (in some in direct way) that "your idea was right, and his was wrong, and to prove it here is evidence why your wrong".

If thats true, I think a major issue he has here is less about the circumcision and more that (as he says) feels "betrayed" and hurt. Because instead of raising the baby together, you have picked it up and ran off saying you know whats best.

What you need to do is stop with the facts, and points proving your right. Instead sit down with him and ask him why he wants it done, let him express his side.

Here is a key line from your post, "However, my mind is made up and my son WILL remain intact."

Not to sound rude, but just as much as your husband has no right to circumcise him, you have no right to say he must be intact. Thats the wrong wording.

You need to make it clear to your husband that this is not about what he wants, or what you want either. That all you want is your son to get to make this personal decision about his body, for HIMSELF. And the only way of doing that is keeping him intact. Tell him you will support whatever your son wants when he is 18, because all your trying to protect here is his choice.


With that, the discussion moves off "whose right" (which can just lead to hurt feelings) and moves to the health and happiness of your son. And thats a point both of you can have an easier time agreeing on.

I never approached it like "this is what is the 'right' decision" or anything like that. I said that after doing research, I felt that the best decision to make was to let our SON make the decision himself. I don't feel that I'm 'right,' I just feel that this is the best decision. I didn't originally start with facts, I originally asked him why he felt the way he felt, and told him why I felt the way that *I* felt (that it's unnecessary, there are no benefits, etc). When he told me that he felt the reasons for doing it were cleanliness and prevention, that's when I stated fact (mainly because I felt it was because he was uninformed about it - he thought you had to retract the foreskin to clean it, so I knew he wasn't aware of what it meant to be left intact), but I didn't start off that way. I never told him that he was wrong for feeling the way that he feels - I told him that I DO respect the way that he feels, even though I don't feel the same way.

You're right though, my dh does have as much of a right to say that he doesn't want him to remain intact as I do to say that I DO want him to remain intact. But, we can't both get our "way," so to speak. We won't ever AGREE on this - it's been made abundantly clear that as passionate as I am about my feelings, he's equally passionate about his. I do respect his feelings, but I do not agree with the decision he wants to make.

[KBecks]

I had my DH on board before our third son was born, but only because my DH saw how much regret I felt over circing our first two boys.

Perhaps what will help is encouraging your husband to see that intact is OK. There is nothing bad about having a foreskin. (Instead of telling him circ is awful, try to have him realize that intact is just fine!)

And reassure him that you value him and respect him, but that on this issue, you cannot compromise. It is like sex to me. He would not force you to have sex. He should not force you to cut your son against your will and betray your conscience.

I am so sorry for the struggle, it sucks. If your husband is a decent person, he will probably get over this and get back to seeing the big picture -- he has a loving, healthy family and a brand new baby to be excited about!!!

[bajamergrrl]

So far a success story...

MY DH and I argued horribly about the circ issue early in my pregnancy. We'd argued about it before I got pregnant and I briefly gave in and agreed to do it if we ever had a son. Well, I grew to regret that and I decided that no matter what I would protect my sons. Once I did get pregnant, it seemed my DH was even more set in his decision to want to circ if we had a boy. I had to stand very firm in the face of a tremendous amount of pressure knowing that I could very well end up a single mother because of it. I knew I could not live with myself if I allowed my son to be cut in spite of my beliefs. Wasn't I supposed to protect my child? Anyway, I eventually stopped bringing up the topic with DH. He occasionally would find some pro-circ article and show it to me but I didn't budge and I left the topic alone. Plus I didn't find out my baby's gender ahead of time.

Fast forward to this week - I gave birth to a son after all this past Sunday. DH is highly excited. He mentioned circ today at our newborn doctor's visit, but here's what he said to our PA, "Our son's not circumcised, can you tell me how to best go about cleaning him since I don't really know much about it." Then our awesome PA gave really good advice and told him there's no special care required and not to retract him until his penis retracts on its own. :

So, even though things are tough right now with your DH, it is possible for him to come around in the end. Good luck, mama!

[perspective]

Originally Posted by ashleedio

You're right though, my dh does have as much of a right to say that he doesn't want him to remain intact as I do to say that I DO want him to remain intact. But, we can't both get our "way," so to speak. We won't ever AGREE on this - it's been made abundantly clear that as passionate as I am about my feelings, he's equally passionate about his. I do respect his feelings, but I do not agree with the decision he wants to make.

Well thats not what I meant. Your DH has NO right to say he wants his son circumcised, just as much as you have NO right to say you want your son intact.

You cant both get your way, but what either of you WANT does not matter even in the slightest. ALL that matters is what your SON wants. Think of it this way, its his way or the highway. And since he cant join in on the discussion with you and your DH, the decision has to be put aside till a later date.

And thats the point I think you need to make clear to your DH, because in his mind he may feel betrayed, like "you won" and he lost this argument. But really neither of you won.

Ask your husband this. If he feels betrayed for feeling he had no say in making this decision, ask him how much worse his son will feel for having no say in a decision that will be MUCH more personal for him.

[ashleedio]

Originally Posted by perspective

Well thats not what I meant. Your DH has NO right to say he wants his son circumcised, just as much as you have NO right to say you want your son intact.

You cant both get your way, but what either of you WANT does not matter even in the slightest. ALL that matters is what your SON wants. Think of it this way, its his way or the highway. And since he cant join in on the discussion with you and your DH, the decision has to be put aside till a later date.

And thats the point I think you need to make clear to your DH, because in his mind he may feel betrayed, like "you won" and he lost this argument. But really neither of you won.

Ask your husband this. If he feels betrayed for feeling he had no say in making this decision, ask him how much worse his son will feel for having no say in a decision that will be MUCH more personal for him.

I think that's wonderfully stated. I completely agree with you, and while it was the point I was trying to make to him - that it's our ds's decision, perhaps wording it in that way will help him to see that more clearly. Thank you.

[billikengirl]

The bottom line is that performing elective cosmetic surgery on the genitals of someone who cannot consent is WRONG and no amount of passion on your husband's part gives him any right to decide this for your son.

That your son will remain intact is not a decision you are making that is equal to the decision your husband wants to make for your son. It is the default, and you don't have to justify NOT amputating the healthy tissue of a newborn.

My husband is very angry with me about my insistence that our son will not have pieces hacked off after he's born. Tough. My son's right to bodily integrity (of his GENITALS, for heaven's sake!) trumps my husband's desire to (as someone so eloquently put it in another post I read here once) work out some mental static on the body of our newborn child. I'm his mother, and it's my job to protect him, from his own father if necessary.

[tutucrazy]

By leaving him intact you give HIM the choice over the function and appearance of his most private area. Your DH has no right to impose his personal sexual preferences on his child. Your child is the one who ought be respected. It is his body to respect not your husband's. Good for you for sticking to your guns. I also recommend ordering a NOCIRC/I'm intact, don't retract onsie from cafepress for when he is at the hospital.

http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/i...eeper/56361189

[robertandenith]

the only thing I can say right now is GOOD FOR YOU!!! : Im so glad u made your decision of letting your son decide.

[LiLStar]

my dh is pretty pro-circ.. and I've been working on him the whole friggin time we've been married, but he still hasn't quite come around. He hasn't really been all that vocal about it. He REALLY hates the topic. Towards the end of my pregnancy in particular, I tried to be really gentle on him and ask if there was something in particular (ie, not obvious) that makes circ especially difficult to discuss, and why foreskin bothered him so much. He had said before that the mere thought/sight of foreskin really bothered him and he couldn't stand to think about it or even see it. No explanation why. I told him he could write it out in a letter if he wanted, so he could get it out of his system all at once without me interrupting him. I told him that the topic NEEDED to come up soon so we could come to some sort of peace about it. I gave him time to gather his thoughts. When I was really close to term, I insisted we have "the talk". I told him I really wanted to listen to him and understand his side. I don't remember too much of what he said.. I think one was that he'd heard of "lots" of guys who got circed (by choice) as adults and were glad they did, hated being intact, thought sex with a foreskin was "like having sex with themselves" He also said that it wasn't fair that I got to make the decision all by myself (I did make it crystal clear long before we were even engaged that there were certain things that were not negotiable, and circing was one of them. he married me and got me pregnant knowing this fully!)

Then I told him my side. And not so much the reasons that I'm against circ, because I've spent the last 3 years shoving THAT down his throat, more or less. I explained that it was important to me, now more than ever, that he accept ds as he is, intact. I told him I didn't expect him to like it, or be necessarily happy about it, but as I neared labor, I needed to feel that this was a "safe" home for him to be born into. I needed to be certain that his dad was capable of loving and bonding with him. I needed to be certain that there wasn't suddenly going to be pressure to circ after his birth. I told him that I didn't expect him to change any diapers at all (until he's old enough that i'm comfy leaving the house without him!) I explained that his attitude was causing me a LOT of stress and that I worried that it would delay labor (or cause it to stall) because I feel as though he is safer on the inside. My body would protect my baby. I didn't think I would be capable of going into labor until this was resolved. And I played to his reason that if he went too far past his due date we wouldn't make it to his sister's wedding, and that would just suck!

After that, he agreed to "accept" it as long as I changed MY attitude on something that bothered/hurt him (something not related to parenting at all and completely within my power to change, I should add) and I have kept my word 100% even if I dont "like" it. I should add we had a home birth so there was never a risk of it happening in the hospital without my consent.

[mquester]

Alright, I lean towards passive-aggressive when faced with conflict so here is my suggestion.

I would stop shoving information down his throat. I would explain to his that this is a very stressful time for you and you want to be able to enjoy what remains of your pregnancy. Ask him for time. 6 months, 1 year, 3 years, whatever you pick.

Tell him you aren't able to deal with conflict right now, and you will be miserable following birth if your new son is hurt, even for a second. Ask your husband to wait a certain length of time, and at the end of that time period you can discuss how you both feel about circumcision for your son and you will seriously consider what he wants then.

It will give you a chance to relax, let him feel like he has some control over the situation and hopefully he'll become used to your son's anatomy and won't care once that time period is out. Even if he does, it gives you months to gather documentation and find a pedicatrician who will support your stance.

Also, make it quite clear to him that if he won't respect your feelings on this and tries to have your son circumcised on his own it is a marriage "dealbreaker" and he will be divorced quickly afterwards. I know my husband was shocked when I told him how serious I felt about harm coming to my child. I explained if I couldn't trust him in this, I couldn't trust him in any part of our marriage anyway.

Best of luck,
MQ

[freestyler]

My DH was pro-circ until I got him to read more about it and see some pictures and explicit discussion of circumcision and what it does to babies. BLECH. It's horrible. I would NEVER EVER EVER give consent for my baby to be injured. Never in a million years. And I don't care who has a problem with it. Circumcision is just as wrong as female genital mutilation.

[smeep]

The problem is there IS no happy medium to circ. In his mindset it ISN'T fair that he gets no say and intact is intact, so ultimately you get your way 100% on the issue. But if you were to agree to circ then he would get HIS way 100% and it would be equally unfair to you! Either way, SOMEONE is going to feel "betrayed." You can't just do half-and-half with circumcision. Therefore the ONLY medium that exists is to wait and reevaluate later after you've had a happy and whole baby for some time and if conflict still exists then let the child decide when he's old enough.

Obviously, it should be that way no matter what as it's a permanent cosmetic decision. But in a situation like this it IS the only "medium" that exists. Purely in regards to the parents, not taking into account the actual child whom is being affected the utmost, SOMEONE will lose. At least the pro-circ parent has a chance at winning later on down the road. Once done, the anti-circ parent will lose for good.

But of course we all agree there is no winning, and the true person that loses is the child if circ is done, but I'm purely speaking on HIS mindset.

[Fyrestorm]

Some one here (not sure if it was the vax boards or here in CAC) said something very wise once.

When it comes to parenting decisions, if it's elective and not the natural approach, than it must require two yes answers."

Should we formula feed? 1 yes and 1 no = no.

Should we vaccinate? 1 yes and 1 no = no.

Should we circumcise? 1 yes and 2 no's (the second no would be the baby) = no.

and as stated before, the one who would be most betrayed here would be the one getting his primary sexual organ chopped up.

[Louisep]

My DH also let me "call the shots" on everything and I said to him that he could choose about circumcision if he did the research into it. Once he read up on it he didn't want DS circ-ed. DH was not as set against non-circing from the start, but I wonder if you ask him to research into it first it might help him change his mind? It's kind of different if they read up on it themselves instead of taking "our" word for it.

Good luck, this is tough for you.

[swd12422]

I agree w/ PPs that maybe you could convince him that it really isn't up to either of you -- it should be your son's choice. Yes, you "win" for now, but it's irreversible surgery and neither of you really knows what your son will want.

I always remember how bitter my grandmother was (even in her 80's) that she had unwanted holes pierced in her ears. Her mother had them done when she was a baby, and she never liked wearing earrings, but hated how the empty holes looked even more. So she wore earrings every day to hide the holes, and hated every minute of it. She tried to let them close a few times, and they wouldn't...

And ear lobes don't hold a candle to a guy's penis in terms of importance!

[skylarsmom08]

I 2nd (4th, 5th,100th) the opinion that you should "compromise" and ask your husband to wait a specific amount of time after your DS is here before resuming talks about it.
I would also make it a "requirement" (don't know if that's the right word) that he should have to watch how it is done...with sound. I can't get through even 5 seconds of it without wanting to cry.
Hopefully he's so enamored with his son that he won't be able to fathom putting him through that kind of pain and you can both rest easy with the decision.
If he says he can't wait til your son is older, I would really have him examine his feelings and figure out why it has to be done at a few days old.
My husband lets me "make the decisions" when it comes to this kind of stuff (vax, drug-free birth, homebirth, etc) but that's because he knows I research everything and only have good intentions (and I know he doesn't want to do all the research himself). But by "defaulting" to me on these decisions, he's making a decision as well. If he had objected to anything I decided to do/not do, it's his responsibility to speak up--same goes for your husband. He didn't have any objections for "your" other decisions, so he agreed with them. He can't throw them in your face now and say "you got A, i get B"--you both got A.
Sorry you're in this situation...I'm sure your husband with "forgive" you for putting your foot down, just give it time.