What do you do when the "natural consequence" is exactly what they want?

[NYCVeg]

The other evening, we went to visit old friends. We made the plans for quite early in the evening, so dd would not be up past her bedtime (dh and I both left work early). We had not seen these friends in years, and wouldn't have an opportunity to do so again for some time. They had gone to a great deal of trouble to make a meal that accommodated our many dietary restrictions. We had also planned ahead for dd--we brought her own favorite foods and a number of toys for her.

Well, dd was acting out. Not terribly (for a three-year-old), but problematically (she was being a little wild, once or twice crashed into something that could have been broken, etc.). She said she wanted to go home.

I was really at a loss for what to do. We try to use natural/rational consequences, but in this case, the natural consequence for misbehavior would have 1) given her exactly what she was trying to get by acting out and 2) punished dh and I and our friends. I pulled her aside and talked to her, twice. The second time I explained that if she wanted to have a playdate with her friend this weekend, she needed to show me that she could behave properly in someone else's house. It helped a little, but it didn't sit well with me--it seemed too punitive and unrelated to the "offense."

Were there better things to do? More importantly, what do people do, in general, when the 'natural consequence' of acting out is something that actually 'punishes' the parents and rewards the child?

[LilyGrace]

I try to look at it with the question of 'what needs to happen here' in my mind. It usually gets to the root of it all without rewarding or punishing anyone - it's just what needs to happen. Just a small change, but it really does help.

That's a very hard situation that you described, and it would have pained me to leave early. I think at that point I would have tried a few other things first like taking her out for a few minutes, and if possible, finally had one adult take dd home and the other stay and visit.

[WhaleinGaloshes]

I think that's the problem when what they want it the opposite of what you want. And that happens, in any relationship. I think when that happens, the natural consequences for everyone is that everyone enjoys themselves less.

I'm lucky, probably, that it doesn't happen too often for my tiny family, but I don't crack down too much on it when it does. The long term goal, I think, it for your child to value what you want and have the generosity to sacrifice what she wants so you can enjoy it. But at age 3 that's like asking a 4 month old to change her own diaper.

In your situation I would have also talked to DD about it, and let her know how I felt about my evening being affected, and demonstrated how her actions were affecting our friends and hosts without going overboard, and generally modeled being polite and socially appropriate and probably let it go at that.

Reconsidering future playdates might be a natural consequence, but only if you legitimately believe that she couldn't behave appropriately at the event that she wants to go to. If you know that ones going to be fine I would not keep her from going.

In general, placing a value on being considerate to each other within the family, when we have competing preferences, is ultimately my goal. That's a slow road, though, and many adults I know aren't that great at it ;-) Setting us up for success by making sure her preferences are honored when possible and making sure we do things that we both like frequently seems to help my DD be more patient with me. And she's 3, too, and we've had plenty of nights like yours and I'm not sure they're all that avoidable.

[momma_unlimited]

Maybe the natural consequence isn't leaving early, but practicing how to behave by staying...? Sometimes, while grocery shopping my kids whine about leaving- I tell them it looks like they could learn some valuable skills if we stay and practice our patience; and going by what pp said about "what needs to happen here?", I think the kids do need to have some experiences where they accomodate others even if it's not gratifying... it's real life...

I think you probably handled it fine, sometimes things don't go smoothly but that doesn't mean there was "a problem". Conflict is not always bad... it just *is*. With 3 yr olds, anyways!

[Belia]

I love this question- I've wondered the same thing.

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

I try to look at it with the question of 'what needs to happen here' in my mind. It usually gets to the root of it all without rewarding or punishing anyone - it's just what needs to happen.

So, in the OP's situation, what "needed to happen" there?

I guess I'm not understanding how that question would help....

[EviesMom]

The most natural consequence IMO is what would happen if DH was unsociable and I had to leave with him--other than for illness--I would be unhappy, cranky, and not want to play or do stuff together for the rest of the night. Just basic supervision. It's a bit punishing, in that she doesn't have a good fun night at home with you, but it isn't simply for punishment's sake, and it doesn't reinforce "behave badly--get what I want" behavior.

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by Belia

So, in the OP's situation, what "needed to happen" there?

I guess I'm not understanding how that question would help....

What needed to happen depends on the op's thought process after that. It could be that the 3yo needed to be away from the situation for a little bit, or incorporated more into it to alleviate boredom/uneasiness. It could be that they needed to go home because she was too young to fully get the social graces and expectations of the evening. It depends. But looking at it objectively keeps from focusing on 'rewarding' or 'punishing' an action (and causing resentment/guilt), but simply meeting the needs of that time.

[The4OfUs]

In situations like this, there isn't a lot you can do besides what you did (if you're striving to be mostly nonpunitive - there are lots of other options but they wouldn't fit here on the GD board, huh? ). I probably would have done the same thing you did, while explaining how working together always makes things easier than battling each other...and would probably mention that this evening was like a grownup 'playdate', and how you're sure she wouldn't like it if you disrupted her upcoming playdate with friends.

While I try to use natural and logical consequences as much as possible, sometimes there aren't a whole lot of options, and after you've exhausted all the options you can think of, sometimes less than ideal has to be OK, IMO.

[NYCVeg]

She DID end up settling down--somewhat--after I talked to her about it (twice), although I'm not sure if it was the threat of no play date or not. One of us leaving wasn't an option--we drove half an hour to get there and have only one car. We did suggest to the couple that next time we see them we'll do brunch or lunch at our place, which will presumably help--dd is ten times less cooperative at 5pm than she is early in the day and our friends' apartment was not so kid friendly (pretty austere, so nothing for her to do or look at).

One of our friends also helped channel her energy by helping her build a fort in the living room out of their coffee table and blanket. A great idea, but unfortunately not the kind of thing I could instigate myself at someone else's house. I don't mind her being a little wild, but my big fear was that she would break their glass cabinet (she was twirling around until she got dizzy and then falling down).

I think the situation diffused itself naturally--and she fell asleep after five minutes in the car on the way home, which suggests to me that she was acting out b/c she was tired--but this isn't the first time that we've been a situation where the "natural consequence" (leaving) seems to punish everyone.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by NYCVeg

this isn't the first time that we've been a situation where the "natural consequence" (leaving) seems to punish everyone.

Well, but I don't think if you abandoned your own plans and instead took her home and played with her at home, that it is punishing her in any way. It only punishes the adults. I don't believe in punishment for the sake of punishment, but I also don't shield my kids from the consequences of things they do--be mean to a friend, your friend doesn't want to play with you next time; bite Mama when nursing, Mama puts you down for a little while; refuse to carry/wear your coat on a chilly day, get cold while we're walking the dog. (I wouldn't do this to the 1 year old, obviously, and I wouldn't do it for the whole day, but a 10 minute walk and a 5 year old? I totally do.)

[OGirlieMama]

It actually doesn't sound to me like leaving early would've been a punishment so much as what your daughter really needed, if she fell asleep that quickly in the car. That kind of behavior - wild spinning and crashing into stuff - is exactly what my 3-year-olds do when they are exhausted and just trying to keep going. I don't think there's much you could have done differently there, and I think you're spot-on suggesting daytime get-togethers at a more kid-friendly place in the future.

[SweetPotato]

We've been in a similar situation just a few times-- when visiting with out of state friends, etc.- something VERY rare and special. On those occasions I have basically done whatever it took to keep dd occupied enough for dh and I to enjoy our visit. We went to see friends out of state a few months ago- who we may not see again for years- and I totally let dd watch movies, play their WII, have a bowl of ice cream, run around the backyard with the dogs like a wildwoman-- I honestly didn't care as long as she was safe and we got to enjoy our visit. Actually- everyone ended up happy with that visit, I didn't punish her for being tired or wonky in an admittedly strange situation for her, and I count it as a huge success even though we were all sleep-deprived and dd got more screen time in those two days than she would usually have. Exceptional occasions sometimes call for exceptional entertainment measures. NO WAY would I have wanted to leave, either!

[SaraMum]

I also struggle with making the decision whether to leave or not but it usually ends up that my son is either tired or bored and therefore probably not much of what I could have done would have helped in the situation rather than just leaving.

[lolar2]

When that happens with a small child at our family gatherings, our "tradition," I guess, is for someone to take the child out for a short walk if at all possible. It usually helps.

[pixiepunk]

Originally Posted by OGirlieMama

It actually doesn't sound to me like leaving early would've been a punishment so much as what your daughter really needed, if she fell asleep that quickly in the car. That kind of behavior - wild spinning and crashing into stuff - is exactly what my 3-year-olds do when they are exhausted and just trying to keep going. I don't think there's much you could have done differently there, and I think you're spot-on suggesting daytime get-togethers at a more kid-friendly place in the future.

this was my thought too. my DS gets really out of control when he's exhausted, and there's just nothing for it other than calling it a night and going home. it sucks, sure, and i always try to schedule things so that we avoid those situations, but he just can't be reasonable when he's exhausted like he is other times. in that situation if i *really* wanted to stay, i might've asked if we could use the host's bedroom and seen if i could get him to fall asleep, or taken him for a quick drive so he'd pass out and transfer him into friend's bed. then he'd get what he needed and i'd get what i wanted.

[NiteNicole]

The second time I explained that if she wanted to have a playdate with her friend this weekend, she needed to show me that she could behave properly in someone else's house. It helped a little, but it didn't sit well with me--it seemed too punitive and unrelated to the "offense."

For me, this would be a legit consideration. If my three year old is starting a phase (sometimes she'll get on kicks where something is an issue, say eating out or grocery shopping, and then one day it's just not anymore...but it can be a long stretch of misery while she's in that phase) where she's going to be difficult and disrespectful in other people's homes, we would avoid play dates till I felt sure that had passed.

My daughter does not do well when hungry, tired, or craving attention. If all the adults were really busy catching up she would most certainly get silly and try to insert herself into the middle of things (she's actually thrown herself across my lap and wailed, "but I want your atteeeeeennnnnnnttiooonnnnn" before) so we would take turns playing with her. We've played in the backyard after dark, sat on the front porch, made roads of cards, etc so that the other adult can talk with friends.

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by OGirlieMama

It actually doesn't sound to me like leaving early would've been a punishment so much as what your daughter really needed, if she fell asleep that quickly in the car. That kind of behavior - wild spinning and crashing into stuff - is exactly what my 3-year-olds do when they are exhausted and just trying to keep going.

Agreed.

At 3, she doesn't get that you haven't seen these people in a long time and you won't see them again for a long time. So this probably doesn't mean much, and she probably doesn't really get why it's important to be calm etc.

We took DS all over for quite awhile, and he had a late bedtime so we could be out rather late sometimes. When I get into a social mood I can talk and talk for ages; I once went to a party with a college friend, I was chatting away and she needed to go home and she tried for well over an hour to grab my attention long enough to convince me I HAD TO take her home. She finally resorted to "petting" my hair...I love having people do that with my hair and it got my attention quickly, LOL. Hubby and son, recently, have done that with me.

Anyway, after DS left babyhood and went into his later 2s and definitely his 3s, he didn't really understand MY needs, but he understood HIS, and he would show his needs, while we were out and about, by "misbehaving" (aka, behaving in a way that made it difficult for a calm visit).

I had to convince myself that his needs were more important than my *wants*, and once I got it through my head, we would leave. Not as a consequence of his behaviour, but as a response to his strong request to go, because he NEEDED to go.

I've been the one needing to leave before, too, and it's so so rotten to have people ignore your needs b/c they are diminishing your need. I was once out with some friends and to this day I strongly believe that someone put something in my beer...I started feeling VERY weird, both physically and mentally, and it took probably an HOUR to convince them that I wasn't just having a tantrum (seriously, they thought I was just being petulant) and that I was scared about how I was feeling. I know very well how bad that feels, so I try to not do that with DS.

And now he's 5, and without spending special time teaching him how to be, he has figured it out. We can go places and spend a really good amount of time while he amuses himself, because he has watched us while out and he knows that if he has a need to go, we'll go (after taking some time for me to put on my grownup hat).

While putting on the grownup hat, I've definitely had the thought process of him getting what he wanted...but honestly, I think it's more about needs at that age.

[peaceful_mama]

hmmm I personally don't see anything wrong with telling my kid I'm not going to take them to somebody else's house to play if they misbehave while we're visiting somebody else's house. Seems logical to me.

The only possible problem I see is a young child not grasping the connection between acting out at Mommy's friend's house on Monday and not getting to go play with the friend on Saturday. (for example, I know this wasn't in the OP as timeline) But my 4 year old would 'get it' and remember definently if I 1) told him at my friend's that we would not go to his friend's TOMORROW if he did not stop XYZ. 2) reminded him the next morning that yes, we were supposed to go to his friend's, but we can't because he XYZ'ed at so and so's last night.

that's if it was an ongoing deal, maybe the second time something's happened lately at somebody's house, I'd go that far with it.

If it's evening and they're tired though, I have "sucked it up" and left because they are acting that way because they *need* to go to bed.
And that is exactly what we do, we get ready for bed and go to bed.