Shih Tzu throwing up on raw

[ananas]

I've had my Shih Tzu on raw for about two weeks. I made the decision mostly because she's dealt with such bad hot spots for years and she was starting to become sensitive to the food that she had been doing well on. When I saw bright red open hot spots I knew I couldn't let her suffer that anymore, so I switched her to raw.

Within a few days the hot spots were pretty much gone, or would have been if she would have stopped scratching herself and re irritating them. It got so bad that I got an e-collar to put on her for some of the day, so she will just relax, go to sleep, and quit scratching. That also worked well- she seems to like the e collar because she knows that with it on, she can't scratch, and it seems like she gets almost obsessive with her scratching and can't stop.

Anyway, yesterday she threw up after one meal (which was a pork neck- she did really well with them last week). Later that evening I figured she might still be hungry, so I fed her a little bit of gizzards and hearts. This morning she had thrown that up, too.

I thought this was all isolated to yesterday, but I was outside just now, where she normally eats, and noticed three more piles of vomit in a spot where I couldn't see them before. So this has been going on longer than just yesterday, probably for a few days.

So...help I feel like I'm feeding her the proper amounts of each type of food (bones, meat, organs), and I had her on pork for about 8-9 days before introducing any chicken, so maybe the chicken is what she's had a problem with? I had a whole chicken so I started cutting that up, so she's had pretty much every part of the chicken.

I'm also not feeding her any vegetables, she was getting a little bit of vegetables in the morning until I found out she didn't need it. She did fine on them, too, and she did fine with some egg, which I still occasionally give her a little bit because she likes it.

For experienced raw feeders, have you gone through anything like this?

[ananas]

Update:
I fed her some more pork neck about twenty minutes ago. She didn't throw up, so I brought her inside, gave her some fresh water, and she laid on her bed. I just went back down and there was a HUGE pile of puke, more vomit than I have ever seen come out of a person, let alone a 15 pound Shih Tzu. It wasn't bile- it was very meaty (sorry, tmi).

I don't know what to do, I'm thinking about switching her back to kibble tomorrow (a good kibble, but still kibble) even though I don't really want to. I don't think this is detoxing or anything, because it's been over two weeks since she's had kibble. I don't know what's wrong.

[Nicole915]

It can be very difficult to manage a raw diet that is not part of a prepackaged system. Trying to isolate each nutritional element and maintain effective levels requires a great deal of tracking. If she continues to vomit, you will want to contact your vet immediately, she could have a GI obstruction.

If you suspect a protien allergy to the kibble, your vet can give you some good pointers on creating a food trial. I the mean time, I hope the cleaning up wasn't too terrible.

[greenmagick]

I dont believe it is hard at all to manage a non prepackaged raw diet....however, she should not be throwing up that much. It may be worth grinding it or getting a prepackaged one to help smooth the transition. I know some dogs, especially who are used to eating kibble, will eat the raw food too quickly and back up it comes. you could also try cutting it into smaller pieces and hand feeding them to her, or just giving her smaller amounts and more frequent feedings.

That being said, if she is throwing up a lot I would keep a close eye on her.

[angie7]

You can start by getting some digestive enzymes such as bac-bak plus. You will probably only find it at speciality pet stores or online. I would give yogurt with her raw food as this will replace her good bacteria that she is losing my vomiting. Also you could try cooked ground beef (drained) with a mix of rice and cottage cheese.

I don't think it's an allergy, she's new to the food and if you are not replacing her good bacteria, she will likely have problems. Hopefully you can balance it back out. Do you have any ground raw food (not beef)? If not, I would try to find some and feed that for a few days along with the yogurt. It will be easier on her tummy.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by Nicole915

It can be very difficult to manage a raw diet that is not part of a prepackaged system. Trying to isolate each nutritional element and maintain effective levels requires a great deal of tracking. If she continues to vomit, you will want to contact your vet immediately, she could have a GI obstruction.

Sorry, but I could not disagree more.

To the OP, I think you need to give your pup a 24 hour fast (which may mean just skipping one or two meals depending on how often you feed). This is the best way I have found to "reset" the digestive system. Don't give her rice or kibble, or anything else (make sure she drinks water to avoid dehydration). Her tummy will be able to heal much faster if it's not trying to process food.

Also, I noticed you mentioned pork necks a few times. My dogs are much bigger but they would get a small piece of pork neck bones along with a good-sized hunk of boneless meat to balance the bone. Feeding them more bone would result in vomit, often with bits of bone that could not get digested enough. Perhaps consider feeding more meaty items - the bone should only be 10-15% of the diet by weight (and bone is much heavier than meat so you really don't need much of it).

[Nicole915]

Originally Posted by Ola_

Sorry, but I could not disagree more.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. In the progressive 5 vet practice I work in, we see an average of one tragedy a month due to poorly managed raw food diet. Just this week we have treated a dog that had gotten salmonella from a raw meat diet and became very toxic. Went from there to aplastic anemia. It is heartbreaking to go into a room and tell well intentioned clients that there is damage of this scope.

I agree totally that it can be done well, but it is challenging. In order to maintain proper nutrition you have to do a great deal of blood work. The peer reviewed studies available right now indicate that certain small populations of issues can be well managed with raw food, but they also indicate that raw food is not the only way to successfully manage said issues.

One of the points of education that falls on a vet's shoulders is the public health risk of raw foods. While common sense might say that frozen raw meat will be void of bacteria, the truth is that bacteria can survive in a high enough concentration to be harmful even up to -70F. I always advise clients that if there in an immune comprimised person (elderly, infant/child, ill) that there are strict measures that need to be taken with food, body and feces management.

A great number of the owners feeding raw food diets are exactly the kind of owners I love to see... they are engaged and curious. They go to the effort of self education and really want to do what is optimal for their pets. The rub is when there is so much information out there that is dangerously wrong. I've had clients send me to websites they use plan out a diet that are so unbalanced and poorly informed that we've contacted the ASPCA. It is possible to do a great deal of damage, and even cause fatal injury with the very best of intentions

The most recent lecture I attended on BARF diets indicated that the final protein content between 15-25% according to known amino acid and nitrogen canine requirements is ideal. This DVM nutritionist's calculations suggest a very significant calcium overdose, something like 11 times the calcium contained in their premium maintenance diet.. This despite the fact that Billinghurst says commercial diets are grossly oversupplemented with calcium. The overall thrust of the compilation of 8 years of data is that there is no scientific proof that raw diets are better than other diets; the nutritional value has not been proven to be superior in any way and in some cases nutritional adequacy may be lacking. There is one commercial raw diet that has gone through AAFCO trial but most have not and it is difficult to achieve nutritional balance. Reports of nutritional imbalance are rising in vet med, I think we all need to do our part to make sure that if raw food is the avenue of choice, that it is done well... which means consulting a licensed veterinary nutritionist or feeding an AAFCO (the agency that makes sure that food is balanced and will maintain good health in animals) food, and maintenance blood work.

On the other (cynical and bitchy) hand, at least these cases bring in clients and money :

Yikes, I appear to have written a novel here.

(*I am not your veterinarian, and this isn't medical advice*)

[Ola_]

I don't want to derail the OP's topic so I'll just say one last thing. We know that for humans a diet of fresh foods is the healthiest and once you know the "rules" you can feed your family without needing a degree in nutrition. I think the same holds true for feeding dogs. No one can convince me that processed, blended leftovers of the human food industry, extruded into pellets that can sit at room temperature for months are better than a diet of real fresh foods.

That said it sounds like the OP has some problems with the raw diet she is using, so hopefully we can get that figured out.

[angie7]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I don't want to derail the OP's topic so I'll just say one last thing. We know that for humans a diet of fresh foods is the healthiest and once you know the "rules" you can feed your family without needing a degree in nutrition. I think the same holds true for feeding dogs. No one can convince me that processed, blended leftovers of the human food industry, extruded into pellets that can sit at room temperature for months are better than a diet of real fresh foods.

That said it sounds like the OP has some problems with the raw diet she is using, so hopefully we can get that figured out.

:

[Sailor]

I definitely think education is important when feeding raw. I feed my dog raw, and definitely educated myself about it thoroughly.

However, I don't think it's any harder to feed raw than it is to feed anything else. I wouldn't buy pre-packaged raw, IMO it's much safer to give your dog meat that you would be comfortable with eating. Whereas, I wouldn't trust pre-packed raw dog food in my body.

I feed my dog whatever my partner and I have for dinner - except it's in raw form, and comes with "extras" like the bone and organ meat.

Your dog might not tolerate pork. So, I'd stop giving pork. Fast for a day. And start with another type of meat - chicken. Chicken is usually fairly safe to start out with because almost all kibbles have chicken in them. Or some form of chicken, at least.

If raw, for one reason or another, doesn't work out for you, there is a company called Timberwolf Organics. Now, their food is NOT cheap. In fact, it's expensive as heck. I don't think there is anything more expensive than their kibble. But, it's also very high quality.