Tandem nursing, DH, making me question...everything

[eko_mom]

Tandem nursing 3.5 y.o. and 2 mo. old. Never questioned CLW until new babe came along, now I find myself oddly revolted nursing my older child. It is a strange wave of extraordinarily negative thoughts and feelings toward her, especially while tandem nursing that goes against my usual thoughts and feelings of tenderness. Especially when she gets really demanding and I'm overwrought with the baby crying or something.

Doesn't help that our baby pretty much refuses to be held or comforted by anyone but me. DH thinks its because of breastfeeding. Sort of like, "I'd help you if I could...but I can't nurse." And, since my insistence on breastfeeding exclusively with the little one and CLW, he just sort of looks at me like I've made my bed, now lie in it.

Don't know where to go with this, just finding myself in a tailspin sometimes, very drained, and without encouragement, not knowing why I'm even doing what I'm doing. I'm not debating CLW, just wondering how people continue on in an empowered way.

[onyxravnos]

these feelings can be normal essp when you have a screaming baby and a screaming toddler at your side. Keep in mind that the BFing is helping your older child cope with the new baby (instead of feeling as replaced as she might otherwise) and keep in mind BFing is BEST for your new baby and your older LO was prob just like that at her age. 2 months old is not daddy time it's mommy time.

it just takes a while to get into the new swing of things. hang in there.

[Gentle~Mommy :)]

Can you express/pump breast milk for your older child and give it to her in a cup?

[Ruthla]

Congrats on the new baby!

Your feelings are 100% normal. It's hard having two babies at once. I see tandem nursing as a tool that helps make that job easier. If you weren't nursing, your 2yo would STILL be demanding and difficult, only you wouldn't have nursing as a tool to calm her and connect to her. (I'm saying "her" because you didn't state your tot's gender, and my tandem nursing experience involved two little girls.)

It also sounds to me like you need to communicate better with DH. He can still help with household tasks. He can still help with the older child. And he can still take the time to try and comfort the infant, even if the baby takes a while to warm up to him. It may be worth it for the baby to fuss in Daddy's arms for a little while, so you can focus on the 2yo, or so that you can have a little bit of space to yourself. It might be that the baby won't calm down for him because he hasn't really tried to do it, and they haven't developed much of a relationship yet. He doesn't have to lactate to change a diaper or bathe a baby!

[eko_mom]

Replies and New Developments

Gentle Mommy, yes, I'll try anything. But, I theorize that its not about the milk, but about the nursing. We'll see...maybe not.

Ruthla, thanks for your suggestions. Of course. There are 101 things DH could do to help compensate for his unwillingness or inability to calm the baby.

onyxravnos, yes, you are right...my dd was also like this.

Today was a major set-back in my parenting. I think I was overwrought from waking up to the house looking and smelling like, well, you know while DH was up reading and watching movies after I took the kids to bed...but, I digress. Anyway, at nap time (DD, my older child does not really take naps anymore, but seems like she needs to so we tried) I totally lost myself with regard to nursing DD. I did and said some awful things when she wouldn't settle down and kept wanting more and more nursing as I was also trying to handle the baby.

With regard to CLW, I wonder if its good to keep trying when I have such negative reactions to the tandem nursing. I don't want to wean DD, but I don't understand why I have such uncontrollable anger about it. It is psychologically torturous no matter what kinds of good feelings I have going into it, the moment it begins, I am beside myself with anger. This is completely out of character for me and I am feeling guilty. I don't say this for sympathy--I AM being horrible about it. I read about other people's experiences tandem nursing and how wonderful it is and I don't understand why I hate it so much.

The negative feelings I am having about dd are breaking my heart. I know its not anything she's doing specifically, besides just wanting to nurse as she always has. I don't know how to get things back to the way they were and lament what things have become.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by eko_mom

Gentle Mommy, yes, I'll try anything. But, I theorize that its not about the milk, but about the nursing. We'll see...maybe not.

Ruthla, thanks for your suggestions. Of course. There are 101 things DH could do to help compensate for his unwillingness or inability to calm the baby.

onyxravnos, yes, you are right...my dd was also like this.

Today was a major set-back in my parenting. I think I was overwrought from waking up to the house looking and smelling like, well, you know while DH was up reading and watching movies after I took the kids to bed...but, I digress. Anyway, at nap time (DD, my older child does not really take naps anymore, but seems like she needs to so we tried) I totally lost myself with regard to nursing DD. I did and said some awful things when she wouldn't settle down and kept wanting more and more nursing as I was also trying to handle the baby.

With regard to CLW, I wonder if its good to keep trying when I have such negative reactions to the tandem nursing. I don't want to wean DD, but I don't understand why I have such uncontrollable anger about it. It is psychologically torturous no matter what kinds of good feelings I have going into it, the moment it begins, I am beside myself with anger. This is completely out of character for me and I am feeling guilty. I don't say this for sympathy--I AM being horrible about it. I read about other people's experiences tandem nursing and how wonderful it is and I don't understand why I hate it so much.

The negative feelings I am having about dd are breaking my heart. I know its not anything she's doing specifically, besides just wanting to nurse as she always has. I don't know how to get things back to the way they were and lament what things have become.

First of all, huge HUGS to you. I am going through the same thing (with the exception of DH issues - Aidan will scream, but Mark will just hold him and try to soothe him). Anyway, Dillan (3 year old girl), is breast-obsessed. She makes up songs about her buh-buhs. Before work in the morning, she HAS to have them. When I get home, they are the first thing she asks for. She talks to them. Loves them. Misses them. Milk in a sippy? Heh. It's not the milk. It's the milk and how it flows from their vessels.

And then I have my sweet three month Aidan. He needs the milk to live. And that's how I had to phrase it to my daughter. Dillan is smart, and the battle was more than I could handle because suddenly, everytime Aidan needed to nurse, so did she. So I came right out and told her that if Aidan didn't get his milkies, he could get very, very sick. He needed to get the milkies first, and she needed to let me give him the milkies alone. Then, when he was done, I could and would spend time alone with her, a happy momma as opposed to a grouchy momma. Does this always work? No. But it works most of the time, and it keeps me from resenting nursing Dillan.

And I know I am setting limits. And maybe this is stepping outside the bounds of CLWing. But I know that I was turning into a raving lunatic, and I was ready to go off the deep end.

Let me ask you this. It seems hard for you to handle both, yes? So if your DH won't handle the baby, will he handle your DD while you are nursing the baby? I have found that it was the constant TWO that drove me insane. Once I was down to ONE, it was much better. And now, when I am nursing Aidan, Dillan finds something else to do while she waits her turn.

[dctexan]

Hugs to you eko_mom. You are dealing with a lot right now and it sounds like your DH isn't stepping up to the plate to support you. Breastfeeding is a HUGE job and some men (my DH included) simply do not "get" that breastfeeding (especially an infant...can't even imagine an infant and toddler. GAH!) is work and that it is draining. There seems to be some sort of disconnect because we (the mom) chose to breastfeed (as opposed to formula, I guess?) and therefore "rejected" available help. At least that was the way my DH phrased it to me when I was having a complete breakdown from the infant nursing. There was no reasoning with him about it. He just didn't see breastfeeding as essential. It was a source of strife between us and it made me walk around with some angry feelings. Perhaps some fo your anger stems from this? That being said, I suspect that you are mad at DD for being demanding of your time and attention (when you are clearly doing the best you can but holy god the baby needs so much attention and you are so freaking tired!), not necessarily because she wants to nurse (although I can also recognize how it might make you crazy to finally get the baby off the breast only to have a big pushy toddler wanting her turn). I think that KirstenMary had a excellent advice about getting DD to wait for her turn. I also think that you need to remmeber that you can set limits of DDs nursing. Maybe setting a timer and limiting the length of nursing sessions will make it bearable for you? Also, are there any activities you can do WITH your DD while you are nursing the baby (I was never a good nursing multi-tasker, but I could probably read a book and nurse)? Also, depending on your feeling about videos/TV maybe you could use your baby nursing time to let DD watch a video (if you sit with her while you are nursing, you can interact with her and talk to her about the video so it isn't like you are sending her off by herself to watch TV). Good luck to you.

[tanyam926]

I know it's hard right now mama, be gentle w/yourself.

I am tandem nursing for the 2nd time right now and my ds2 (almost 4 y.o.) is driving me crazy! He is breast obsessed too, loves to nurse, would sit on my lap and nurse all day if he could. I think that he is trying to see where he fits in, so much a big boy, but still a little one too.

I have made a 1 min rule for most day nursing. The exception is when I know he really needs it (he's tired, hurt, etc.). He does well w/this. If I am nursing ds3 (who is already 10 mo.) I also ask him to wait a few min until baby is done bc it's hard for me to juggle 2 (mostly I just don't want to).

Try to remember that when you read about how wonderful tandem nursing is, it's mostly the larger picture, which make the day to day annoyances and struggles less important (just like parenting in general). We all have days that we wish we could just be nursing one (or none!) and that's normal, those feelings don't make us bad moms.

My little theory about the influx of neg feelings about the older nursling has something to do w/our body's way of making sure we bond and nourish our newborn (to ensure survival). Sleep deprivation, whining toddlers, and little help from our partners can magnify those feelings.

My dh took pride in his ability to put baby to sleep, I also praised him extensively on his daddy abilities, and bragged about him to everyone (esp when I knew he could hear me). Sometimes dads lack confidence w/baby and they hate to feel like failures. Praise his good daddy moments w/both kids and he may get more and more confident.

Also, do you have any mommy friends to talk to? Just venting to someone who's btdt can really help.

HTH!

[peachopotamus]

DD turned three right after DS was born. It was a hard time. DH and DD had a lot of daddy-daughter dates then which helped. I started counted down from ten when I was done nursing her which worked better than I thought it would. We still count nowadays and she accepts that Mama is done nursing for now. It's nice to have control over when I stop. I would nurse DD before DS if I didn't feel I could nurse them together. I would ask DD "which breast is for you and which one is for Baby?" so she new what to expect. Tandem nursing has really made them close. It's worth it. Hang in there

[eko_mom]

First of all, thanks to all replies. It has helped immeasurably just to be among "friends." I don't have any locals familiar with CLW, so everyone I could talk to here starts off by thinking I'm a little nutty already.

Originally Posted by KirstenMary

And I know I am setting limits. And maybe this is stepping outside the bounds of CLWing. But I know that I was turning into a raving lunatic, and I was ready to go off the deep end.

Let me ask you this. It seems hard for you to handle both, yes? So if your DH won't handle the baby, will he handle your DD while you are nursing the baby? I have found that it was the constant TWO that drove me insane. Once I was down to ONE, it was much better.

Yes, setting limits...it is necessary. I find that I have had difficulty setting limits because I feel guilty about "abandoning" my dd. The mothering web is so intricate. I didn't expect--I don't know why--that I would be so suddenly "separated" from her on the birth of ds. I have always been the go-to parent for everything for her so these past couple months, especially in the earliest days and weeks, I struggled to keep everything the same as it had been between us, to my detriment. Because, of course, that's impossible. It has only been recently that she could be cared for by someone other than myself, even dh, for any period of time, including going and doing fun things without me. Yesterday, she said, "Mom, I'm going on a walk, you can come if you want." I said, "Of course, I'm coming, I'm your mommy I go everywhere with you." She said, "But you didn't when the baby was born." And, there it is...the difference between the way I want things to be, and the way things are in the world. I want to be with dd1 all the time and be everything to her, but I can't and would have realized this sooner if I were working outside the home, or later, when she herself was the one needing the space to grow up.

Back to your point, consistent limits are necessary, so is DH stepping up to fill the void when he's here. I've begun asking for that in the last few mornings--he can successfully ignore us being awake and me trying to nurse or distract from nursing all morning long, with various entreaties about what dd1 wants for breakfast. She's wise to the distractions, but if dh is up and starting the day, and at lease trying to engage her, its easier. And, failing that, at least I'm not starting my day pissed that he's still sleeping while I'm off to "work" already!

Thanks for sharing your "lunatic" and "off the deep end" comments. I absolutely feared for my sanity a couple of days ago when I last posted. I feel better now.

[eko_mom]

Originally Posted by dctexan

Hugs to you eko_mom. You are dealing with a lot right now and it sounds like your DH isn't stepping up to the plate to support you. Breastfeeding is a HUGE job and some men (my DH included) simply do not "get" that breastfeeding (especially an infant...can't even imagine an infant and toddler. GAH!) is work and that it is draining. There seems to be some sort of disconnect because we (the mom) chose to breastfeed (as opposed to formula, I guess?) and therefore "rejected" available help...I also think that you need to remmeber that you can set limits of DDs nursing...Also, are there any activities you can do WITH your DD while you are nursing the baby...

dctexan, thanks. I wonder if we are married to the same man. LOL! I guess my DH gets it but only because of all the media attention regarding brain development and the benefits. He definitely does not get CLW. OMG, the nursing of an infant and a toddler...not something I ever expected to be doing, not to mention nursing a toddler at all. Nursing IS draining. I'm not complaining, but I'm just sayin'!

I can read with dd while nursing ds. This is immensely helpful. TV...oh, don't get me started! We don't have TV...but I do use a DVD strategically now and then...where's my perfect world where I am so good a mom, I don't need that?! LOL!

[eko_mom]

Tanyam, Whoa. Sounds like you have btdt!

Originally Posted by tanyam926

I know it's hard right now mama, be gentle w/yourself.

I am tandem nursing for the 2nd time right now and my ds2 (almost 4 y.o.) is driving me crazy! He is breast obsessed too, loves to nurse, would sit on my lap and nurse all day if he could. I think that he is trying to see where he fits in, so much a big boy, but still a little one too.

I know part of dd's demands are all about making sure she hasn't been forgotten or displaced. Seeing where she still fits. That's why I try to accommodate all her requests. During the day, its not as easy, mainly because I am babywearing and can't easily get the "ninnies" out. Another reason is that since my milk came back, she has neglected to eat more than a few bites of anything a day. Unless of course, its loaded with sugar, like ice cream. I have had a hard time not making eating something before nursing sound like a condition and she's negotiating how to see her access to nursing as unconditional when she's being asked to eat first.

Originally Posted by tanyam926

I have made a 1 min rule for most day nursing. The exception is when I know he really needs it (he's tired, hurt, etc.). He does well w/this. If I am nursing ds3 (who is already 10 mo.) I also ask him to wait a few min until baby is done bc it's hard for me to juggle 2 (mostly I just don't want to).

Try to remember that when you read about how wonderful tandem nursing is, it's mostly the larger picture, which make the day to day annoyances and struggles less important (just like parenting in general). We all have days that we wish we could just be nursing one (or none!) and that's normal, those feelings don't make us bad moms.

My little theory about the influx of neg feelings about the older nursling has something to do w/our body's way of making sure we bond and nourish our newborn (to ensure survival). Sleep deprivation, whining toddlers, and little help from our partners can magnify those feelings.

Yes. Thanks. Mostly, I just don't want to nurse 2 babes at once. My thoughts exactly about the negative feelings. I have been struggling to put them in context. If CLW is so natural, why do I feel so terrible...but I think you are absolutely right with the ensuring survival theory. In a time of limited resources this would be essential.

Originally Posted by tanyam926

My dh took pride in his ability to put baby to sleep, I also praised him extensively on his daddy abilities, and bragged about him to everyone (esp when I knew he could hear me). Sometimes dads lack confidence w/baby and they hate to feel like failures. Praise his good daddy moments w/both kids and he may get more and more confident.

Also, do you have any mommy friends to talk to? Just venting to someone who's btdt can really help.

HTH!

Are you a psychotherapist? LOL. You seem to have some astute observations. I think a lot of what is happening with dh caring for or comforting our ds has to do with confidence. His unsupportive attitude for the breastfeeding could be about not knowing what else to blame his inability to comfort ds on. Its hard for me to prop him up when I am so aggravated by his attitude, and frankly, what I consider his laziness, (I'm anonymous here, right?!) but someone's got to start somewhere. I'll endeavor to praise.

You are right--about venting to friends--though as I said in another post, I don't have any local friends with whom my parenting style is similar, so hard to vent there. CLW is extreme, if not completely weird, for the people I do have in my life. This forum has been really useful for that reason. Thanks all.

[eko_mom]

Originally Posted by peachopotamus

DD turned three right after DS was born. It was a hard time. DH and DD had a lot of daddy-daughter dates then which helped. I started counted down from ten when I was done nursing her which worked better than I thought it would. We still count nowadays and she accepts that Mama is done nursing for now. It's nice to have control over when I stop. I would nurse DD before DS if I didn't feel I could nurse them together. I would ask DD "which breast is for you and which one is for Baby?" so she new what to expect. Tandem nursing has really made them close. It's worth it. Hang in there

We do the counting sometimes, and like you, I am surprised that it is o.k. I think partly, dd asking to nurse is a test to see if she still can, so even just letting her latch on for a brief period helps her and she's o.k. letting go. Most the time. She's started to say, "I'm done, FOR NOW," just to reserve her place for the next time. Just like for me, its important to know that I can control when I want to stop, I suppose.

[eirual]

I read this article after DS's first year. It was quite validating to know that it really is about mom for the early years (still is, largely) and made me wish I was a little more accepting of that and a little less resentful of being needed by various people in various ways. Basically, it's all about mom in the begining and dad acts as the gateway to the rest of the world.

This somewhat sums it up:

Most couples also aspire to the equal sharing of parenting tasks. Some mothers even go so far as to bottle-feed so that their husbands, too, can feed the baby. Others work out complicated nighttime arrangements to take turns being up in the night with the baby. However, something happens when the new baby comes that throws a monkey wrench into the whole equality thing: The baby prefers the mother.

Blasphemous as it may seem to say so, there is a biological imperative that bumps up uncomfortably against our strivings for gender equality. Breastfeeding, essential to a baby's optimum health, necessitates exclusivity between baby and mother during the early months. This can contribute to a dad feeling left out and unsure of his own role, and to a mom feeling overwhelmed.

[eko_mom]

eirul: excellent.
Thank you.

[pollyanna123]

I'm tandem nursing my 3yo DD and 15mo DS. The first 6 months having both of them were the hardest months of my whole life. I know what you're going through. Hugs!!

I haven't read all of the replies, so this may have been suggested, but it wasn't long after my DS's birth that I implemented "nurse to 30." I would tell her something like, "Right now, I can't nurse you as long as you would like, but I will nurse you until I'm done counting to 30." I only used it when I really needed to, moreso in the first few days while I was teaching it to her. I warned her that she needed to stop when I got to 30. If she didn't stop, I would unlatch her. She caught on pretty quickly and it's been a lifesaver for me! Now, whenever I can't or don't want to nurse her a lot, we'll "nurse to 30."

Also, while I had envisioned nursing them at the same time, that didn't work out for me practically. I made a rule that she could nurse, but not when the baby was already nursing. That became habit after a while.

Now, I carve out time in the morning to nurse my DD "a lot" while my dh occupies the baby. The rest of the day will depend on what we have going on. Some days, she gets to nurse "a lot" in the morning, but the whole rest of the day will just be "nurse to 30."

[eko_mom]

Originally Posted by pollyanna123

The first 6 months having both of them were the hardest months of my whole life. I know what you're going through.

It helps a lot to read that. I honestly can't think of a more challenging time in my life either. Not at all what I expected to feel. Good idea the counting to 30. Your daily rhythm sounds a lot like what we have fallen into and it seems to work o.k. most of the time.

[NotTheOnlyOne]

my ds 1 just turned three. We say "boobies are for night-night time only." He is weaned now to only nursing to sleep. There are occasions of course, if he hurts himself, that I will relent because he tells me, "I need a boobie to make this feel better." Weaning him to bedtime and emergencies has saved our nursing relationship. I felt just like you right after ds2 was born. He is 10 months now.

[eko_mom]

Limiting my older child's nursing sounds like a good idea, and she doesn't get to nurse whenever she wants because I'll be busy trying to console the baby, nursing the baby, or wearing the baby. But, its not ideal this way. I don't think she resents the baby, as much as me for not being able to accommodate everything. I am no longer the super mommy I once was, it seems. She's refusing to eat meals, I think because I explained that the baby nurses whenever he needs it because he can't eat other food yet. Her reaction is not to eat other food either, hoping, I think to enjoy the unlimited nursing she once did. Its driving me insane. I think yesterday she had a saltine cracker and a couple bites of orzo and some ice cream. Then, she wakes every few hours to nurse at night. Some nights she wakes more often to nurse than the baby does. I don't know how to tell her why she can't nurse. All I can say is I need a break. But then the baby will need to nurse immediately thereafter and it seems like a lie. Its coming off that I need a break from her--which is true--but not what I wanted and not what I want her to think. I guess I can't have everything.

[pollyanna123]

It's hard. So, so hard. For me, there was so much more guilt than I expected over the changes that had to occur in DD's life when her brother came along. Finding the right balances was part of what made those first months so hard. You are quite a trooper for still nursing your older child overnight! I absolutely felt like I couldn't deal with the nighttime needs of a toddler and a baby, so DD was nightweaned (fortunately, before the baby came along), and when she woke up at night, she got Dh only. That was one of the hardest things I did, because sometimes she really wanted me, but we stuck it out and it has been good for her relationship with dh. And even though I felt like it was going to harm my relationship with her, it didn't. I just couldn't nighttime parent both of them AND be a decent mother during the day.