How to deal with a friend disciplining my child *Update in OP* - Page 2

[LynnS6]

I agree that with this particular age difference, you can't let the kids work it out themselves. Her 20 month old isn't physical enough to do that, and her 20 month old probably isn't verbal enough.

Even with two 3.5 year olds, it's hard to let them work it out themselves. My dd goes to an on campus daycare center where there are lots and lots of REALLY verbal kids. The daycare actively teaches problem solving and having kids work things out. The kids leave the daycare at 5-6 with great skills in this area. But for 3 year olds and the young 4s, they often can't do it themselves. For little things, they can, but once things escalate, a teacher NEEDS to step in.

I would ask your friend what she would like to have happen in common 'discipline' situations. The see if you can work together to come up with some solutions that more reflect your values about discipline. For example, instead of 'forcing' an apology, maybe you can work toward having your son 'make amends'. "Look, X is crying. When you sat on her hand, you hurt her. How can you help her feel better?" (Stony silence from your son.) "Do you want to help get an ice pack for her or do you want to say "sorry"?"

[One_Girl]

I think you should be more on top of watching your child at all times andyou should talk to her about disciplining your child. My friends and I all redirect each other's children and that is something that we have discussed early in our friendship and are all fine with. This may just be something that she expects that you are fine with because she is fine with it too. She may also think that when you leave the room you are turning the child watching, that clearly still needs to be done, over to her. My friends and I used to bring our coffee with us and have our conversations while staying with our children when they were younger, it is something that is easy to do once you get the hang of it. We are still sometimes interrupted by our kids to hear about something they are playing or doing together or to go help out in a squabble that is escalating to screaming, but we are very good at picking up our conversations right where we left off and this really helps us to feel less isolated from friends.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

This is one of the those places where you can completely avoid situations where she needs to step in -- you need to be constantly aware of where your son is and what he is doing. You need to NOT be out of earshot or so far away that you can't intervene before she does. You won't be able to relax and enjoy time "off duty" when you are together, unfortunately.

I totally agree with this. I was often at the other end of this (I had the timid, scared kiddo), and it demands vigilance from one parent or the other--and it sounds like you're definitely the better choice in this case!

When the little girl gets older, she'll be able to hold her own better and you'll be able to back off.

[chirp]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

... A lot of this happens when I'm just out of earshot or not in the immediate room or am engaged in something else and can't get to the situation in time. Her and I have talked in general about how it's an interesting idea to let children work things out before immediately stepping in and fixing things for them, but she is obviously very protective of her daughter since she's much smaller, younger, etc. ...?

if you're child is aggressive than it is really up to you to be disciplining him anyway...which means you should be in the room. i agree that this may just be a time in your life when you can't sip that coffee and kick your feet up.

i love my momma friend...who has a child like yours. but when she leaves the room, or doesn't keep an eye on her "baby" all it does it put me in the position where I have to discipline her child because I am the only adult who sees the aggression (and her son does get violent--so it has to be stopped)

perhaps if your son has hurt her daughter in the past she is nervous. I know that when my momma friend and her son are over I get hover-y.

don't give her the opportunity to discipline your son. and if/when she oversteps boundaries by intervening with you present...that is when you can say things about your discipline tactics/measures.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

I know, isn't is funny--she has a hard time with my child because he is full of energy and loves to run, stomp and shout excitedly and I have a hard time with her child because she is so timid, non-adventurous and clingy. It's so hard to find a mama and a child that fit the both of us!

Honestly I don't understand this - her daughter is just 20 months old, not even 2. Personally, I feel that it is pretty common for not quite 2 year olds to timid and clingy.

Regardless, your son simply needs to be in your eyesight at all times for now or else you will probably continue to have these problems.

[evinmom]

I have a DS who was more timid as a toddler and a DD who was a very aggressive toddler. I have been on both sides. With DS I felt very protective and with DD I had to watch her like a hawk to ensure she didn't hurt anyone. I agree with the other posters that when you have a more active/aggressive child, it makes sense to stay on top of the situation so the other parent doesn't feel like they have to discipline your child. I always feel awkward disciplining someone else's child. However, I will step in if my child is being bullied or put in a dangerous situation. DS is 6 and he still runs into situations where he is being bullied by a friend's older/bigger child. I believe in letting older children work things out amongst themselves, but I will not let my child be physically hurt if I can do something about it. For example, we were at the pool today and my friend's 11 year old son held my DS under the water because he was mad at him. My friend was busy reading a book. I did not hesitate to step in. DS could have been seriously hurt. It would have been better if my friend witnessed the situation and stepped in immediately, but that was not the case. So I was left with intervening and subsequently disciplining her child.

[savithny]

It sounds a bit like:

1) you're assuming your DS's behaviors are boy behaviors and her DD's are girl behaviors

2) You think that your DS's mode of interacting is a preferable one -- that being outgoing and at least a little agressive is a *good* thing, and that it is something the other child is lacking in. You "have a hard time with her."

3) You think, maybe as a general rule, that a less-aggressive child should accommodate him/herself to the play style of the more aggressive child. "Let them work it out" usually works out in real life to "the aggressive kid gets to do whatever they want." Or, in many cases, "Girls, the boys are rough, and that's just the way they are, so you'll have to just put up with it. And they'll get everything they want because they hit people and take stuff, but that's okay because they're boys."

4) You think that this law of the jungle mode of helping children learn to deal with other children's styles of interaction should start very, very, early.

I agree with the others that with these ages, it really shouldn't matter whether the other child is agressive too, or not. You can't sit back and not pay attention to what the kids are doing. There is a world of developmental difference between 20 months and 42+ months. And kids that age need appropriate actions modelled for them. Including apologies - not forced from the other child, but sincere from the adults. "I'm sorry you got scared when he shouted like that. That must have hurt your ears."

In the example of a 20 month old sitting on an 8 month old -- not only would I remove the 20 month old each time, but I would also remind "Baby is smaller, baby can't get out of your way if she wants to. Baby can't tell you when something hurts except by crying. You need to be gentle." We reinforced "You need to be aware of people who are slower/weaker/younger than you, and respect their need for space" over and over with my kids when they were those ages.

If someone is doing something with potential consequences to safety of people or property in my house and their parent is not immediatley there, I do not wait until the parent comes back into the area to handle it. That whole system feels like I am tattling on the child, and it also feels like addressing all requests for discipline to the parents is completely ignoring the child - talking about them like they're not even int he room.

Do people really think that if someone's 3 year old is preparing to toss a block into a window, write on my sofa, or bash someone with a truck, that I'm supposed to turn to the parent and say "Um, please tell Bobby not to color on the walls." Bobby is right there. "Bobby, please do not color on my walls. Here is a piece of paper you can color on, instead." I have never thought twice about doing things like that, including raising my voice if need be "Yikes! Put down those scissors NOW!"

[milkybean]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

It's definitely the other way around in this situation. I have four boys, all of which have been rowdy and loud, so my tolerance level is really high. Hers is much, much lower, so she doesn't let certain things roll off her back like I do. (Example: I have an 8 month old baby and her 20 month old sits on him, pinches his cheeks hard, etc. It really doesn't phase me at all.) She tends to step in right away and I'm more apt to just let it slide.

I feel it's important to point out that this is by the OP, and I assume it's the SAME mom who worries about the OP's older son with her 20 month old, is also not stopping her 20 month old from hurting the OP's 8 month old.

I mean, that's about the same age difference, right? Your older one to the 20 month old, and the 20 month old to the 8 month old? So it's weird that the mom isn't doing anything about her daughter hurting your baby, but she is quick to jump about the older one hurting her daughter.

When you talk to your friend, definitely talk about that, even if you don't mind what the 20 month old is doing, and I can understand why your threshold is really high for that sort of thing, since you have 4 kids that are possibly rambunctious with each other!

That said, her telling him that she'll tell you, as someone pointed out, is what you do actually want her to do. She prevents him from doing things by telling him she will tell, and obviously she feels that that is better than letting him do something she feels is harmful, and then letting you deal with it. The "threat" method isn't awfully kind, but if she's seeing pain/hurt about to happen to her kidlet and you aren't in the room...


I don't have many (any?) mom friends (at least none that I've seen in a very long time), I'm kind of a hermit, and I have very few stories of this sort. But one of my old friends had problems with another friend. They had kids about the same age, one boy one girl. The boy wasn't aggressive at all, but the girl's parents, especially the dad, I swear thought the boy was going to kill his daughter every time they got together. He was ALL OVER that little boy, making sure he didn't do pretty much anything, because he perceived that the big scary boy was going to harm his little princess. I watched this so often, and the boy was never doing anything bad, he was a kind and gentle soul who actually got up to much less "naughtiness" than the girl did, but her parents had a very strong perception. I could see your friend possibly having this perception, IF your son isn't actually hurting her but it's more his way of being that's causing a perceived problem.

Hope your conversation goes well! I would recommend doing it without ANY kidlets around...

[savithny]

Originally Posted by milkybean

I feel it's important to point out that this is by the OP, and I assume it's the SAME mom who worries about the OP's older son with her 20 month old, is also not stopping her 20 month old from hurting the OP's 8 month old.

I mean, that's about the same age difference, right? Your older one to the 20 month old, and the 20 month old to the 8 month old? So it's weird that the mom isn't doing anything about her daughter hurting your baby, but she is quick to jump about the older one hurting her daughter.
.

Actually, I thought it was pretty clear the the OP thinks the friend intervenes too often between the friend's 20 month old and the OPs 8 month old, that she steps in too fast, where the OP is fine with what the 20 month old is doing and would not jump in as fast.

[Just1More]

I say, "what would your mom say?" instead of "I'm going to tell your mom." With the right tone it doesn't come across as threatening, and I think it helps the other child connect with whatever his/her parents usually say. I don't really want to jump in and discipline another person's child. I would much rather support what they are learning at home. So, if I know the family really well, I would say, "I think your Mama says don't jump on the couch. Is that right?" 99% of the time the child will make a thoughtful expression, and then stop whatever it is. If I don't know the family very well, I often say either, "What would your Mama say?" or "I think you should go talk to your Mama," or, "I'm not sure that's okay. Let's wait until your Mama gets back." If the child is insistent, and is being dangerous, or extremely difficult, I say, "Hmmm, let's go get your Mama and see what she thinks." Then I go find the Mama and say something like, "Little boy wanted to jump off the counter. I wasn't sure if that was standard for you all so I thought we'd come check."

The little boy is a partner in things, and I'm not going against anything the parents are trying to teach their child, but yet I am preventing mayhem.

Maybe if your friend changed her phrasing a bit, it wouldn't come across as a threat, but would still be effective?

[chirp]

Originally Posted by Just1More

I say, "what would your mom say?" instead of "I'm going to tell your mom." With the right tone it doesn't come across as threatening, and I think it helps the other child connect with whatever his/her parents usually say. I don't really want to jump in and discipline another person's child. I would much rather support what they are learning at home. So, if I know the family really well, I would say, "I think your Mama says don't jump on the couch. Is that right?" 99% of the time the child will make a thoughtful expression, and then stop whatever it is. If I don't know the family very well, I often say either, "What would your Mama say?" or "I think you should go talk to your Mama," or, "I'm not sure that's okay. Let's wait until your Mama gets back." If the child is insistent, and is being dangerous, or extremely difficult, I say, "Hmmm, let's go get your Mama and see what she thinks." Then I go find the Mama and say something like, "Little boy wanted to jump off the counter. I wasn't sure if that was standard for you all so I thought we'd come check."

The little boy is a partner in things, and I'm not going against anything the parents are trying to teach their child, but yet I am preventing mayhem.

Maybe if your friend changed her phrasing a bit, it wouldn't come across as a threat, but would still be effective?

not being snarky...I PROMISE!!!

but if my friend, who wasn't in the room many of the times when I was trying to discipline her son because he was aggressive with my son...asked me to not use threatening words towards her son...i would be seriously offended. So your son can't even be told "I will tell your mother". But my child can be hit, pushed, pinched or whatever the problem is? Seems like a double standard.

But then again, saying I am going to tell your mother, doesn't seem that threatening to me. Especially if she does tell you. Then it's not a threat is it? It's the truth. And it's the only way she feels she can get your son to stop and contemplate his actions.

[MamasBoys]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Honestly I don't understand this - her daughter is just 20 months old, not even 2. Personally, I feel that it is pretty common for not quite 2 year olds to timid and clingy.

*shrug* I have four and none of them have been timid like that. I believe 100% it's because we DIDN'T hover over them or constantly protecting them from every bump or shout. They learned they could stand on their own two feet instead of constantly hiding behind us and being fearful of other children and the world around them.

[MamasBoys]

Originally Posted by savithny

Do people really think that if someone's 3 year old is preparing to toss a block into a window, write on my sofa, or bash someone with a truck, that I'm supposed to turn to the parent and say "Um, please tell Bobby not to color on the walls." Bobby is right there. "Bobby, please do not color on my walls. Here is a piece of paper you can color on, instead." I have never thought twice about doing things like that, including raising my voice if need be "Yikes! Put down those scissors NOW!"

I think it's okay to step in if something needs to be done immediately, but my problem is that my friend has a very different parenting style from me--one that uses threats, punishments, shaming, hand smackings, etc so the way she treats my child is not okay with me.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

*shrug* I have four and none of them have been timid like that. I believe 100% it's because we DIDN'T hover over them or constantly protecting them from every bump or shout. They learned they could stand on their own two feet instead of constantly hiding behind us and being fearful of other children and the world around them.

Just because your children were not clingy doesn not make it abnormal and it also does not mean that it was a result of a hovering parent. Some kids, even ones with hands off parents, are simply shy.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

*shrug* I have four and none of them have been timid like that. I believe 100% it's because we DIDN'T hover over them or constantly protecting them from every bump or shout. They learned they could stand on their own two feet instead of constantly hiding behind us and being fearful of other children and the world around them.

I certainly don't think this is true at all. Kids personalities aren't entirely decided by their parents, good or bad. I am not a helicopter parent, don't hover or 'protect' my kids, and I still have one who is quite clingy and 'fearful' of other loud, obnoxious kids.

[mommy2maya]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

I think it's okay to step in if something needs to be done immediately, but my problem is that my friend has a very different parenting style from me--one that uses threats, punishments, shaming, hand smackings, etc so the way she treats my child is not okay with me.

Maybe you need to find friends who parent more closely to how you do, and keep your interactions with this 'friend' to childless interactions.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by MamasBoys

*shrug* I have four and none of them have been timid like that. I believe 100% it's because we DIDN'T hover over them or constantly protecting them from every bump or shout. They learned they could stand on their own two feet instead of constantly hiding behind us and being fearful of other children and the world around them.

Well, I only have two, but I've got one more cautious kid and one far more "out there." Neither sounds as aggressive and forward as yours, though. They were parented as similarly as I could, and I'm big on not hovering and letting them experience some consequences, including falling down and/or getting other kids mad at them.

I think timidity is in large part a personality trait, one that you clearly think is a character flaw and/or the result of what you see as substandard parenting. Probably the other mother *and* even the little girl can pick up on your opinion of the little girl as having some kind of "failing." This puts mom on the defensive, makes her more vigilant, and probably makes the little girl tenser and more nervous and timid.

If you could look past your judgment of the child's timidity, perhaps everyone would feel more comfortable and the mom would relax a bit and be willing to not jump to intervene so fast? Or maybe if you made it clear that you only wait to intervene in situations where no one is getting hurt, abused, or habitually dominated, she'd understand your philosophy a little better?