When will nurses catch up?

[abiyhayil]

I just finished my first year of nursing school in May and it's terrible. Not only are the teachers not interested in current research, they don't even acknowledge the APAs stance (though ambiguous) on circumcision. I wrote a paper on this subject and was dismissed because ' I've never seen an 85 yo needing to be circ'd because of phimosis'. The ignorance is rampant and disheartening because the nurses have so much influence on their patients. The students are just as bad if not worse because they are unaware of their lacking education!

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by abiyhayil

I just finished my first year of nursing school in May and it's terrible. Not only are the teachers not interested in current research, they don't even acknowledge the APAs stance (though ambiguous) on circumcision. I wrote a paper on this subject and was dismissed because ' I've never seen an 85 yo needing to be circ'd because of phimosis'. The ignorance is rampant and disheartening because the nurses have so much influence on their patients. The students are just as bad if not worse because they are unaware of their lacking education!

Some have, but like many it will be a long road. Do you want to see?

[Night_Nurse]

I'm a nurse (an OB nurse) and I didn't circ my son. I'm very vocal against RIC. I know of another RN from my workplace who left her newborn intact when he was born last month. In the workplace, we are limited as to what we can say. Before I get flamed...at least at my hospital the circ education must come from the nursery (baby's nurses) and not the mom's nurse. But just as there are moms who choose to bottle feed over breastfeed, even though I would choose differently, it's a legal option and I'm not allowed to argue with parents.

As far as nursing school and professors, old habits die hard, I suppose. Circ as normal and necessary is so ingrained in our culture. But the university where I attended had a post-clinic meeting every week. Our instructor (who was a CNM) has us present both sides of the circ debate. While she never came out and said circ was wrong, at least she gave the students a forum in which to present the harms of circ and the normal-ness of intact. Maybe some eyes were opened.

I'm guessing the teacher who poo-pooed your paper has never worked with a 50 year old woman dying of breast cancer. Otherwise, she might advocate for radical mastectomy for every female patient.
My guess is both her husband and sons are circed because she believed it was best at the time and now she makes comments to make herself feel better.
Not all nursing instructors feel this way. But it may take decades for the myths to get debunked and for the literature to catch up to current trends.
The best thing we can do as nurses is to speak out and advocate for choice of the penis owner to make the circ decision.

[glongley]

I'm a nursery nurse. I'm sorry you have such a closed-minded teacher. My impression is that nursing training is now emphasizing "evidence-based" medicine. But I guess this one is still going on semi-irrational arguments.

I speak to small groups of nursing students about circumcision, as they come through my hospital for their OB clinical rotation. I teach them about the anatomy, function, development, and care of the normal intact penis, plus about the history and the ethical issues. I tell them my biases right up front - that I believe the foreskin has value and that neonatal circumcision raises ethical concerns. Almost all students (except for a couple males who were slightly defensive) are very interested and receptive, and some get down right fired up. Handful by handful I am changing the mindset of the next generation of nurses.

Keep speaking the truth, keep studying the research, and keep finding ways to get the information out to your professional colleagues. Just as we need to change the way parents think about circumcision (and the foreskin), we need to work at changing the way health professionals think about circumcision (and the foreskin) too. It may be hard to change the minds of those from the older generation who are still rationalizing circumcision on outdated myths. But the next generation of nurses and doctors needs to hear this information while their minds are still open, so that there can be a gradual paradigm shift.

And you're part of this. Don't get too discouraged about the minds that you can't change, just know that you will be able to reach lots and lots of people with your nursing training and credentials.

Thanks and good luck with the rest of your program. You can always feel free to PM me if you want to bounce any other thoughts around.

Gillian

[QueenOfTheMeadow]

My mom was a maternity nurse for 20 years and is the reason that my children aren't circ'd. She is a very strong intactavist. So I don't think that it's so much nurses in general, but possibly the nurses you are dealing with. I'm glad to know there is one more nurse out there who is going to be looking out for the wellfare of baby boys. :

[abiyhayil]

Thank you for the different perspective, You're right, I was actually confronted with realizing circ was a decision I didn't have to make in our baby class taught by an LC. I hope to work as a lactation consultant and help moms see the benefits of not circing on the nursing relationship.

[Nandi]

I'm an intactivist nurse. You have a great opportunity if you get to choose the topic for class projects, health fairs or patient teaching in l & d. We have all sorts of info to give you if you're doing a research project!
Also that teachers response doesn't even make any sense. Circ. should be done on a case by case measure, for gangrene, frostbite, malignancy, or serious trauma. It is totally unnecessary to do on every person, just like a radical mastectomy is totally unnecessary on every woman. You could argue it would lower breast cancer rates, if you were arguing with a circ. mentality.

[BugMacGee]

I'm one of many intactivist nurses in my unit.

I honestly don't remember being "taught" much about circs in nursing school, but watching one made me an immediate intactivist.

Things are changing.

[KMomto2xy]

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

I'm one of many intactivist nurses in my unit.

I honestly don't remember being "taught" much about circs in nursing school, but watching one made me an immediate intactivist.

Things are changing.

Do you have to watch one? I'm starting nursing school in a month and it's just not going to happen. I will not watch a circumcision. It's completely wrong to me.

[Night_Nurse]

Originally Posted by KMomto2xy

Do you have to watch one? I'm starting nursing school in a month and it's just not going to happen. I will not watch a circumcision. It's completely wrong to me.

I have no idea if it will be required or not but I'm guessing you could just opt out of it. When you're scheduled to go to the newborn nursery, let your instructor know it's not something you care to see.
I saw many circs as a nursing student but I was never asked to participate in anything having to do with it (it is considered a minor surgical procedure and, at least where I live, they wouldn't dare let a student nurse participate in a surgery), But like BugMacGee, seeing circs in school is what made me an intactivist. Had I never witnessed them, I might not care one way or the other if other boys got circed. Now I can say without any doubt that I know it hurts them, even if a local or EMLA is used and I KNOW they aren't crying because they are just strapped down (they do cry when restrained but the cry when cut is a whole different type of cry).
I hope even if you don't see one in school you will bring up issues like the AAP policy and human rights issues during your post-clinical meetings. It's a great opportunity to plant seeds with fellow students who still buy the "it's cleaner" myth.

[NettleTea]

Originally Posted by abiyhayil

I wrote a paper on this subject and was dismissed because ' I've never seen an 85 yo needing to be circ'd because of phimosis'.

And this is somehow a reason for advocating RIC? That fails to make any sense whatsoever. An 85 yr old gets circed - at least he had his foreskin for most of his life (and the benefits of it). An infant loses his right away and never has a choice in it. I fail to see what her example has to do with the victims this issue mainly pertains to.

[KMomto2xy]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

I have no idea if it will be required or not but I'm guessing you could just opt out of it. When you're scheduled to go to the newborn nursery, let your instructor know it's not something you care to see.
I saw many circs as a nursing student but I was never asked to participate in anything having to do with it (it is considered a minor surgical procedure and, at least where I live, they wouldn't dare let a student nurse participate in a surgery), But like BugMacGee, seeing circs in school is what made me an intactivist. Had I never witnessed them, I might not care one way or the other if other boys got circed. Now I can say without any doubt that I know it hurts them, even if a local or EMLA is used and I KNOW they aren't crying because they are just strapped down (they do cry when restrained but the cry when cut is a whole different type of cry).
I hope even if you don't see one in school you will bring up issues like the AAP policy and human rights issues during your post-clinical meetings. It's a great opportunity to plant seeds with fellow students who still buy the "it's cleaner" myth.

Oh I plan to. There's no way I'll just sit there while people say asinine, easily-debunked crap about a procedure like that. My mom is a nurse and she really bought into the whole HIV thing and cleaner thing. I chewed her ear off talking about it and now she says she doesn't see a reason for it, but I think she still thinks it's weird to not do it. Sigh. I actually plan to carry around the articles about the African studies, and the AAP statement and other articles I like, so I have resources right there.

[Nandi]

I love the idea of carrying around the resources! Maybe you could get some pamphlets too?

[MommaLauraRN]

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

I'm one of many intactivist nurses in my unit.

I honestly don't remember being "taught" much about circs in nursing school, but watching one made me an immediate intactivist.

Things are changing.

That's how it was for me. I'm and L&D nurse and far more nurses/doctors are against RIC than for it. There are several who will perform circumcisions at the request of their patients but didn't have their own children circumcised. Some fiercly advocate against it. Things are indeed changing, I just feel really really badly for the circ'd little boys who are quickly becoming the minority who will realize that 1. They are missing something very important and 2. Their parents had access to the same education that supports leaving the foreskin where it belongs!

[BugMacGee]

PM me if you want to see how nurses discuss circ amongst themselves.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by MommaLauraRN

That's how it was for me. I'm and L&D nurse and far more nurses/doctors are against RIC than for it.

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

PM me if you want to see how nurses discuss circ amongst themselves.

I'm impressed...every nurse I know (and I know a strangely large amount of them) is pro circ. I would love to see nurses speaking out against it.