Awful Update #20 :( - Do you limit your DCs time around kids who stress him/her out? - Page 3

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by alexsam

<snip> It also seems like from your post you may have your own issues of abandonment. <snip>.

And you know...I'm not afraid to admit this. I've known to many women close to me, who put their WHOLE HEART AND SOUL into a marriage, into a family and had a husband who was, apparently, faking all those happy smiles and wonderful family vacations and promises of forever. I'm struck, deep in my heart, by the ease with which some men can walk out. My mother, MIL, multiple friends and many aquaintances, have all experienced this. I don't know the full story with ALL of them....but I do with a few and you know what? They really did do EVERYTHING they could, including my friend, to be outstanding wives and phenominal mothers to their children....only to be left. A couple of these women are highly intelligent women who could have had (andin two cases, were on their way to) high powered careers....but who stayed home because the decision was made with their husband that a SAHM was best.....only to be left to figure out how to enter the working world with no skills, young kids and a lingering depression and loneliness to combat on a daily basis.

If this could happen to them, couldn't it happen to me? Now that I have been a mother and continue to strive for excellence in my friendship/partnership wit my husband...I can see how hard this work is. To know that so many women can put in the work, try SO HARD, who would have been willing to do most anything to work things out had they known their H wasn't happy....that they can be left, like an old piece of luggage or something...it's disgusting.

I would never leave like that. Without trying my ASS off, I wouldn't leave....never. My family is my number one priority, my anchor and respite...i would bet my life and all my worldly posessions that my husband feels the same way......but then, so would all these women I know, they would have bet the same thing, before they were left, suddenly, with little explaination and no caring whatsoever. So....how am I different?

And how do I raise a boy, into a man who doesn't do this same thing? My friends DH has a fmaily who always put family first...who are horrified at how he is acting. They didn't model this behavior...his mom and dad have worked on their relationship so hard, to keep it loving and good all these decades...why does it not seem to matter?

You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad. I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??

[Tigerchild]

If he's been spending a lot of time on the computer, to be honest, I too would say that there is an extremely high likelihood of an affair (emotional). Especially if he is playing any kind of game, either text based or something like a MMO. People leave their spouses and children all the time for people they meet online (even though it tends to start in a way where they're not out looking for it).

All of a sudden, dropping everything to go "find" himself in OR with no plan (even though he's been a planner in the past)? Um....yeah, right. I think the plan is probably to go meet someone, and move in with them.

As much as I hate snooping, it might be worth it to look at his email record or game history, not so much to confront him with but so that she will get mad enough to bother to go hire a lawyer to protect herself. If she continues on the way things are that means she's saddled with all the debt and no financial support for her or her son, while her husband goes to diddle and play where there's no reminder of his responsibilities. Nuh-uh. Time to throw cold water on that fantasy, and be sure to protect herself.

[holothuroidea]

How is the little boy doing?

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by holothuroidea

How is the little boy doing?

She said that the night before last...she went to put him to bed and they have a little snuggle pad of pillows, etc that they snuggle in while they wind down for the night...and she said that he was very quiet...snuggled her and she put him into bed. Then, he lifted his arms to her again...so, they went back down to snuggle and he came close to her, snaking his arms around her neck...and she said she just whispered into his ear all the loving things she could think of...and that he whispered back to her, "shwahshwahushshwah", until he fell asleep like that, laying there with his mama...holding on to each other. He seems to know that something is up....but he seems to be processing by reaching out for closeness to his mama, which is good, because the hugs are doing her good, I think. Thank goodness she has her boy...it stinks that a child is caught in the middle of this...but she is such a good mother and enjoys her mothering so much, despite how challenging he can be. I'm so glad that she has him and he has her.

[alexsam]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

And you know...I'm not afraid to admit this. I've known to many women close to me, who put their WHOLE HEART AND SOUL into a marriage, into a family and had a husband who was, apparently, faking all those happy smiles and wonderful family vacations and promises of forever. I'm struck, deep in my heart, by the ease with which some men can walk out. My mother, MIL, multiple friends and many aquaintances, have all experienced this. I don't know the full story with ALL of them....but I do with a few and you know what? They really did do EVERYTHING they could, including my friend, to be outstanding wives and phenominal mothers to their children....only to be left. A couple of these women are highly intelligent women who could have had (andin two cases, were on their way to) high powered careers....but who stayed home because the decision was made with their husband that a SAHM was best.....only to be left to figure out how to enter the working world with no skills, young kids and a lingering depression and loneliness to combat on a daily basis.

If this could happen to them, couldn't it happen to me? Now that I have been a mother and continue to strive for excellence in my friendship/partnership wit my husband...I can see how hard this work is. To know that so many women can put in the work, try SO HARD, who would have been willing to do most anything to work things out had they known their H wasn't happy....that they can be left, like an old piece of luggage or something...it's disgusting.

I would never leave like that. Without trying my ASS off, I wouldn't leave....never. My family is my number one priority, my anchor and respite...i would bet my life and all my worldly posessions that my husband feels the same way......but then, so would all these women I know, they would have bet the same thing, before they were left, suddenly, with little explaination and no caring whatsoever. So....how am I different?

And how do I raise a boy, into a man who doesn't do this same thing? My friends DH has a fmaily who always put family first...who are horrified at how he is acting. They didn't model this behavior...his mom and dad have worked on their relationship so hard, to keep it loving and good all these decades...why does it not seem to matter?

You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad. I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??

I'm just saying... be careful with nevers. Be careful with vilifying everyone that "leaves" (and you know, this does not have to be "black and white"- it can be for a time, it can be another living arrangement...).

How about a scenario. My dad is gay. However, he didn't feel he could be "out" and we didn't know until recently. I know he loved my mom (and still does). But, he didn't want to "wreck" our family by coming out, splitting the marriage, whatever. So, he lived bottled and someone elses life for 30 years while they raised us. He didn't tell my mom for fear it would split them, yet he didn't love her "like that". In the meantime, he suffered from depression. Their marriage had obvious problems that my mom couldn't figure out how to fix. My dad tried his hardest. And he stayed. Better? Ummm... I don't really know. I know I would not want to live like that. I know even if he "left", he would not have abandoned us, but he had another life to lead. It was not his fault. But in his staying was much misery for them as well. He tried. He stayed. He did everything that was expected of him. And the price was very, very high for him and my mom.

For some people, that need to leave is a choice between leaving and total self-destruction.

Again, I don't know these people. But, I'm saying for you and for the other readers, that sometimes, there are hard choices out there. And branding everyone who has found themselves desperately unhappy and has made the hard choice to split their family "devilish" is not fair.

And it is not just men who leave. Women "leave" too. Often.

And, I honestly was not trying to be insulting with the idea that you may have personal abandonment issues. I was saying it because it might be projecting on to her...

[tireesix]

If the boys dad is self medicating etc it could be that which the boy is picking up on and making him so upset. Children pick things up and sometimes we have no idea how much.

The dad leaving may actually improve the situation with the boy when things are settled. Not saying that the dad is awful etc, but it sounds like their family situation hasn't been great and this could be having a huge impact on the poor boy.

I would be there for her but at the same time, leave some space them to sort what needs to be sorted. Call her, meet at the park etc, but try and limit it for a while.

[One_Girl]

I didn't read the whole post to see what people suggested, but I suggest that you encourage her to go to legal aid to get a divorce and seek sole custody and an immediate support order. She can also get emergency aid through health and welfare in the form of food stamps and welfare to help her until she is on her feet again.
If you are thinking about offering her help in the form of babysitting while she gets on her feet, her son may be less clingy and whiny if you watch him for her while she looks for work and has a chance to get out of the house if your home is a little more stable and supportive. It sounds like he has been in a bad situation and that can make kids really clingy and stressed out while they are with the parents who carry that stress around. If things don't improve, then I think you need to protect your child and only do things with her alone and away from the kids.

[phathui5]

I've come to believe that kids (just like we do as adults) should absolutely be able to decide who they're going to play and be friends with. This boy may grow out of being such a whirlwind, but right now he bothers your dd and I think you should respect that.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

You are right, this issue is one that makes me very very emotional. I've seenthe wreckage left behind, when a father walks out. It is in my own heart, as a daughter who was left. It is in my memories...of my little brother, three or four, sitting on the porch with his little back pack and his little shorts...waiting for a good-for-nothing dad, who left him and then couldn't even be bothered to come on time (or sometimes at all) to pick him up for visitation....there my brother would sit, "he's coming"...hours he would wait, never giving up on his dad. I see this loss in my own husband...who was 11 when they came home to no daddy. I know so many people with that mark of loss on their hearts....they were just kids. Who leaves a kid??

This makes me cry- I can just see it in my mind. You are right- I have had this same conversation with my friends. I don't know how so many men can just give up a relationship with their children. It seems so much easier for them to break this bond and somehow not feel the magnitude of what they are doing to the little life? It makes me SO MAD when I hear men making excuses for not seeing their children, or talking about following a job that would take them miles away from their kids, or this UAV of a man your friend is married to. You are so right. You do not leave your child to go "find" yourself. What is it about some men that a previously loving father can just say goodbye to a child and walk out the door, content with seeing their child sporadically or maybe not at all? I don't get it. They must be blind to their children's need for them or how could they do it?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by alexsam

I'm just saying... be careful with nevers. Be careful with vilifying everyone that "leaves"

Yeah - "never" is tricky. If you'd asked me 10 years ago, I'd have said I'd "never" have an emotional affair. If you'd asked me 15 years ago, I'd have said I'd "never" leave my ex. I was wrong.

How about a scenario. My dad is gay. However, he didn't feel he could be "out" and we didn't know until recently. I know he loved my mom (and still does). But, he didn't want to "wreck" our family by coming out, splitting the marriage, whatever. So, he lived bottled and someone elses life for 30 years while they raised us. He didn't tell my mom for fear it would split them, yet he didn't love her "like that". In the meantime, he suffered from depression. Their marriage had obvious problems that my mom couldn't figure out how to fix. My dad tried his hardest. And he stayed. Better? Ummm... I don't really know. I know I would not want to live like that. I know even if he "left", he would not have abandoned us, but he had another life to lead. It was not his fault.

Yeah. But, the husband of the OP's friend is abandoning them. He's moving across the country, and has made no provisions for making sure that his wife and child have a place to live, or food to eat. He doesn't know if he has room in his life for them. Even if he were also gay (certainly happens - it turns out that my ex, which sure took me by surprise when I found out), that's not a reason to abandon your family, and dick around crossing the country to "see what you find", while your family struggles.

For some people, that need to leave is a choice between leaving and total self-destruction.

Again, I don't know these people. But, I'm saying for you and for the other readers, that sometimes, there are hard choices out there. And branding everyone who has found themselves desperately unhappy and has made the hard choice to split their family "devilish" is not fair.

Agreed...but there's a profound difference between leaving and abandoning. Like the OP, I have my memories. My parents stayed together while I was growing up...but I've been the one trying to explain to my son why his dad didn't call when he said he would, why his dad didn't show up for a visit, why his dad gave him an IOU for a Christmas present, etc. etc. etc. I'm the one who actually kicked my ex out - but he's the one who played treat dad for a year, then dropped his son like an old boot. There is NO excuse for that. Hard choices? Sure - and he chose wrong.

And it is not just men who leave. Women "leave" too. Often.

Very true. The whole "why do men do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Very true. The whole "why do men do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.

Of course women also abandon their kids but (correct me if I am wrong), normally it seems they leave less and when they do it is for more understandable and apparent reasons- mental health, addictions etc. It seems as if often in divorce men have a much harder time maintaining a closeness to their kids and are able to let go of these relationships with so much more ease then a healthy functioning woman ever could. It is so hard to understand. Especially when they justify the lack of relationship and blame it on everyone but themselves.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Yeah. But, the husband of the OP's friend is abandoning them. He's moving across the country, and has made no provisions for making sure that his wife and child have a place to live, or food to eat. He doesn't know if he has room in his life for them. Even if he were also gay (certainly happens - it turns out that my ex, which sure took me by surprise when I found out), that's not a reason to abandon your family, and dick around crossing the country to "see what you find", while your family struggles.<snip>

And I want to make it clear that ^THIS^ is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that a parent who can't be with their partner anymore is a failure, or WRONG...I'm saying that to up and leave and simply not be around for your kids anymore is sinister...what happens between a married couple is their business...but when you make a child with someone, you are entering into a pact to care for ALL the needs of that human until they're old enough to care for themselves..and even after that point, you still have an emotional responsibility to that person for the rest of your life. You can't make a baby with someone, be a good dad/mom and then LEAVE and not come around anymore. THAT is my objection. I've actually known of one couple, who I can say honestly went about divorcing in the right way. There were absolutely hurt feelings on both sides, there was fighting, there was crying and screaming, there were feelings of loss and betrayal and all the horrid crap that comes with one person (in this case the woman) deciding that it'snot working and s/he wants out.....but you know what? They kept this ugliness away from their kids, they went to counseling for the specific purpose of being able to coparent these kids and then they DID IT. Those kids were their number ONE priority...and it really helped them to ease out of the hurt and devastation of their divorce...and these people who felt so much poison actually developed a great friendship over the years...I think because they stayed in each others lives through the positive act of continuing to love responsibly the children they made, in love, together. They never lost sight of them as being the number one important issue. So....it CAN be done. In these peoples case, there was infidelity, the woman cheated on her husband...even with that, he didn't take it out on the kids by disppearing...so?? Why do so many people have to leave like that?

I hope that's clear...I'm not in any way saying horrible things about people who just can't work it out...I get that! I really do! In fact...as a kid who wished SOOOO bad that my mother would have left my step dad...I really get that when it needs to be over, it's often times BETTER for the children involved that it ends...it's people who think the end of a marriage means the end of their responsibility to their kids that makes me sick. It's like my friends H....he is leaving, he does not have a plan for working...like I said, they have a $2,000+ a month MORTAGE...that's before food, gas, whatever else..she needs to come up with $2,000+/ month. With NO notice, she has to start bringing that kind of money in. They are broke...no money saved, behind on bills, etc....and he's just leaving her, with a two year old, to "figure it out" and doesn't seem to really get how completely awful it's going to be for their two year old when he just leaves and doesn't come home one day. He has made it clear that if he comes back at all any time soon to see them, it's not going to be less than six months, probably more, before he does.....how does a person DO THAT. That's not okay...it's simply not okay. That's not a marriage not working, that's not leaving your wife...that's abandonment. Period.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

<snip>
Very true. The whole "why do men do this?" vibe in this thread bothers me. Women leave, and women also abandon their kids.

You know....women DO leave. But women don't leave anywhere NEAR as much of the time as men do...come on guys, COME ON. I would not say that there is a HUGE problem in our country with mothers leaving their children.....I would A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y say that there is a GIGANTIC problem in our country, with men leaving the children they create.

Who here is going to say that there is just as big a problem with mamas leaving as with dads leaving??? And ESPECIALLY in the types of situations I'm talking about...middle class families, where plans are made and children brought into the world ON PURPOSE...mamas putting careers aside to stay home with the kids, etc. and then dad one day deciding "eh...not for me" and walking...and then just stop taking so much an interest in their kids lives...seeing the kids as "from my previous marriage". I've seen this WAY too many time to believe that it's a coincidence...that somehow my life has been chock full of these stories.

Why is it socially acceptable for a man, so long as he's paying some sort of support, to stop taking an interest in his childrens life? Why do these men remain respected memebers of their communities and families? I've seen too many kids missing the hell out of their dad, to believe that it's not a problem.

My real puzzlement in all of this, the thing that truly makes me guts turn...is that a woman can think that she has a good mate, that she's picked a good provider with good morals who wants to build a family with her...and then that person can one day pull the plug on his feelings for his kids...and a good dad who spends time with his kids and tucks them in at night and all of that...can walk out the door and not miss that stuff, not care that they barely see their kids...has more important things to do....as if, all that time, they were faking or something? Tha's my problem...how can they stop caring?

[Seasons]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

You know....women DO leave. But women don't leave anywhere NEAR as much of the time as men do...come on guys, COME ON. I would not say that there is a HUGE problem in our country with mothers leaving their children.....I would A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y say that there is a GIGANTIC problem in our country, with men leaving the children they create.

Who here is going to say that there is just as big a problem with mamas leaving as with dads leaving???

Yup. Or even "duh." Per U.S. Census 2006, "there were 12.9 million one-parent families in 2006 — 10.4 million single-mother families and 2.5 million single-father families."

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

My real puzzlement in all of this, the thing that truly makes me guts turn...is that a woman can think that she has a good mate, that she's picked a good provider with good morals who wants to build a family with her...and then that person can one day pull the plug on his feelings for his kids...and a good dad who spends time with his kids and tucks them in at night and all of that...can walk out the door and not miss that stuff, not care that they barely see their kids...has more important things to do....as if, all that time, they were faking or something? Tha's my problem...how can they stop caring?

And this is a worthy topic for discussion. (Again, I speak as yet another of those nice middle-class, educated, mid-30s married women whose husband suddenly abandoned me + child - he's never met my/our child, in fact. Married a friend of mine and had more kids.)

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by Seasons

Yup. Or even "duh." Per U.S. Census 2006, "there were 12.9 million one-parent families in 2006 — 10.4 million single-mother families and 2.5 million single-father families."<snip>

Well and that's not to say that it's not AS horrible...I make no excuses for women who make the decision to walk out on their kids, these humans they grew in their womb and pushed out of their bodies...that's just as terrible, if not more, for a mother to not want to see or know her kids anymore....

But I do think there is an actual, severely consequential(sp) issue with menfolk walking out.

Originally Posted by Seasons

<snip> (Again, I speak as yet another of those nice middle-class, educated, mid-30s married women whose husband suddenly abandoned me + child - he's never met my/our child, in fact. Married a friend of mine and had more kids.)

And it's not to say that it's somehow "less" awful in a low income, inner city area with a mama who met and "accidentally" made a baby with a guy she's not married to...I don't necessarily attach too much importance to marital status, age, education level, income, etc...I don't have an expectation that women in those situations should just expect their men to walk out...

But I do think that it is worse, when you PLAN, you work hard together to buy a house in a neighborhood picked specifically for it's school district and proximity to playgrounds and your church or whatever....when you count down to "TTC date" and then get pregnant and kindly inform your office that you are having a baby and you and your husband have decided that having a SAHM is better for you and then you stay home and do projects and throw yourself into mothering and think "Wow, this is the plan, the plan is working..." and then wake up one day and he pulls the rug out from under you "This is not the life I wanted".....WHAT?

Oh, and don't get me started on the men who abandon one family only to start another....THAT really gets me going. My FIL did that....my MIL came to find out, after they'd been married (and htey had known each other a long time) that before he became a doctor and was still going through med school, that he'd had a family with his high school sweetheart. So...she stuck with him and supported him through med school, gave him two beautiful children....and then, as he approached the midway point of his Residency period, decided he didn't want her anymore. She had nothing and he was a flat broke "gonna be" doctor. He went on to meet and marry my MIL.....became a successful doctor and had three children with her...he never really had anything to do with his first kids ever again. THen, he left my MIL and their three, including my DH.....and two of the three kids haven't seen him since. My DH sought him out when he was almost 20 and they have a so so surface relationship...you know, a card at christmas,etc. That's it.


So...I don't know. I don't know at all what any of this means. I guess it just sucks to hear my awesome soul of a friend say out loud "He's just leaving, my whole life and my best friend...and he's going to leave me alone? I'm going to be alone?" - what do you say to that? How do you explain to her how this could happen...?

[Seasons]

To clarify my post/s above (not that we disagree necessarily, not sure so I'm clarifying)...

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

Well and that's not to say that it's not AS horrible...I make no excuses for women who make the decision to walk out on their kids, these humans they grew in their womb and pushed out of their bodies...that's just as terrible, if not more, for a mother to not want to see or know her kids anymore....

But I do think there is an actual, severely consequential(sp) issue with menfolk walking out.

I don't think a man abandoning his family, or a woman doing it, have any difference in awfulness/consequences. I'm just saying than men abandon their families far, far, FAR more often than women do.

(And as most people on this board know, I do not believe that children raised by a single parent are in any way disadvantaged compared to those raised by two parents; children don't "need dads" for instance, they just need one solid loving parent of either sex. So there aren't more "consequences" to kids abandoned by dads than those abandoned by moms.)

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

And it's not to say that it's somehow "less" awful in a low income, inner city area with a mama who met and "accidentally" made a baby with a guy she's not married to...I don't necessarily attach too much importance to marital status, age, education level, income, etc...I don't have an expectation that women in those situations should just expect their men to walk out...

Like you, I am NOT saying that lower-income or younger or unmarried moms should somehow expect their partners to walk out. I just point to my middle-class, educated, etc. details because the ugly common stereotype of single moms is that of an unmarried, young, lower-income woman, often non-white. And that is belied by statistics (2/3 of single moms are single b/c of divorce or widowhood, 2/3 over age 21, etc; I don't know about race) as well as my own experience. So I shout it a lot because the corollary to the ugly untrue stereotype is a weird sense of immunity from divorce, by some demographic groups. And as this thread shows, NO partnered woman is safe from her partner abandoning her. If I have a mission outside of great parenting, it is for women to know the risks of becoming financially dependent on their partners.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

Originally Posted by Seasons

To clarify my post/s above...

I don't think a man abandoning his family, or a woman doing it, are any difference in awfulness/consequences. I'm just saying than men abandon their families far, far, FAR more often than women do.

Oh no, I completely agree.

What I was meaning to get across, is that I believe the question "Why do men leave" is a bigger one than "why do women leave". It just seems to me...that in every barrel of apples, you're going to have some less than awesome fruit. Of all the people on the planet who become parents...some shouldn't have. Of those who shouldn't have, some of them will end up abandoning their kids and some of them WILL be female.

The thing that is startling is not the fact that some people abandon their kids (male and female) it is to do with the vast number of seemingly ordinary, thinking feeling men who feel free to walk away and stop seeing their kids...a lot of these men aren't "bad apples"...there is nothing else about them that would really make you stop and think, "They shouldn't have had kids" or "Oh, well, are you surprised he ended up being an abandoner?" - you know?

Originally Posted by Seasons

If I have a mission outside of great parenting, it is for women to know the risks of becoming financially dependent on their partners.

VERY important. Doesn't strike so close to home for me because I'm 100% in charge of finances around here, budgeting, banking, all of it.....but it's so dangerous for so many reasons when one partner hands everything over to the other partner and has no sense of what their financial state is.

[Seasons]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

The thing that is startling is not the fact that some people abandon their kids (male and female) it is to do with the vast number of seemingly ordinary, thinking feeling men who feel free to walk away and stop seeing their kids...a lot of these men aren't "bad apples"...there is nothing else about them that would really make you stop and think, "They shouldn't have had kids" or "Oh, well, are you surprised he ended up being an abandoner?" - you know?

YES! The question of WHY so many men do this isn't easily answered with "oh, he must have been a bad egg and you should have known his type when you partnered with him." And the sooner we straight women, as a group, admit the complexity of the answer, the better we can answer the to-me-related question of securing the path to freedom for most/all women, so nobody is trapped, financially, in a partnership she wants out of. The answer to that second question similarly IS NOT a simple, "well, just partner with the right kind of guy in the first place and you'll always be ok."

We have strayed way off original topic, OP, but I hope this is still a valuable and relevant discussion, given your follow-up posts?