Time outs?

[jennpn]

I would call our family's discipline style "gentle", we don't raise our voices in frustration or anger unless immediate compliance due to safety risk is concerned (I screamed at my 2 year old when he charged into the road into an oncoming car...did the trick though as he stopped short of the curb...but I would think that it different!) We never discipline with physical punishment, humiliation or shame. We try to teach compassion and respect. In setting bounderies for our almost two year old we do use time outs. When he is blatently defiant and clearly looking for a boundery to be set we remove him from the situation and sit with him for a couple of moments followed by a reminder of appropriate behaviour and a hug and kiss. It helps make the particular occasion stand out as something that is serious and I feel as a result of this consistant consequence he is extremly well behaved, compassionate and secure in the expectations for him. We praise good choices and he is more inclined to seek this approval then find attention through misbehaviour. We don't use this discipline teqnique often, I would say once a week if that but it does allow us to show him what things are absolutly not tollerated like hiting or biting. When he bites me I do'nt think simply telling him that he hurt mommy and that makes mommy sad while forcing an apology gets through, a time out in this situation helps him see this is a bigger deal and I feel the remorse in genuine when he has had a moment to think about it.

I have noticed on this thread that some have put spanking and timeouts together in refering to other parenting methods that are not as inclined to GP. I am wondering what others see the problem being with time outs?

Thanks

[alegna]

"Time outs" mean different things to different people. The way you describe- where you sit with him- might better be called a time in. He is not shunned, it is not a punishment, it's just a moment to refocus on the situation at hand.

I try to avoid punishments, and as such I don't like the sort of time out where the child is removed from the social settings and forced into isolation for a set period.

-Angela

[kiwiva]

I think the issue with time out is the isolation. It can be interpreted by the child as "love withdrawal" (Alfie Kohn). It can be punitive and arbitrary, has nothing to do with the "offense" and generally just makes the child more angry (from what I have seen when others are using it, anyway). I don't use time out.

What you are doing sounds more like time-in to me too. Taking a break with your kid to calm down, make a point and then remind of the rule when he is in a place to hear it doesn't sound like the usual meaning of time-out where the kid is sent away and ignored for a set time.

[LilyGrace]

What you describe is not the problem I have with time-outs.

I will say I don't like time-outs as a consequence as a general rule. For some, removing the child is the end of the situation, and I have a problem with that because they're not encouraged to go back after the break and make amends/try again. It's just The End, and that doesn't feel like discipline to me. I also don't like to see them overused, where a child's only option is time out 90% of the time he did something wrong. When it's so disconnected from the act, a child learns nothing.

I DO like time-outs/time-ins when they're just a chance to breathe, no time limit, and the focus is on helping the child instead of punishment. I like to see kids being able to take this tool and grow with it- learning how and when to take their own time outs and what to do after. That's a skill even adults can use. But the concept of sitting for X minutes on a naughty spot...what kind of tool is that?

[boheime]

The Disadvantages of Time-Out

[rubidoux]

I don't think it's respectful of my child to have him under constant (or even temporary) threat, ie, "if you're not well behaved you'll have a time out." Some parents who use time outs do overtly threaten their children, ie, "if you don't behave you're going to go on a time out." But even if there's no stated threat upfront, if you use time outs as a method of disciplining your child, the child will come to understand that there is an unstated threat.

I more generally don't believe it's a good idea to punish my child. We are always on the same side. It's not a my will v. his will kinda thing. If there are behavior problems, we can sit and talk about them and work on them. If he is doing something that needs to be addressed we will stop and sit down together and talk about it. Sometimes he doesn't want to do that and I suppose that feels like a negative consequence to him, but it is not a punishment. I would never say "you did X, so now I'm going to hurt you or make you feel sad."

[tuhcoolyuh]

My daughter started hitting and biting around 12 months. I told her "ouch, that hurts mommy" and "no biting/hitting" etc. She didn't get it for a long time - she just thought my reaction was funny. Let me tell you, we are joined at the hip - I have practiced attachment parenting and we have an extremely strong bond. I know she doesn't intend to hurt me, because she has never been hit or bit. Anyway, I designated a "time out" area in our living room corner with play gates and at the first hit or bite, I said "no biting/hitting" and immediately put her in time-out for one minute. I didn't hurt her, shame her, or threaten her. She went from hitting or biting up to twenty times a day to ZERO in a week - it just happened to be the only consequence that meant anything to her at her level of understanding. I'm okay with her growing up knowing that negative actions have negative consequences. We'll start up with time-outs again in the future if needed.

[jennpn]

Originally Posted by rubidoux

I don't think it's respectful of my child to have him under constant (or even temporary) threat, ie, "if you're not well behaved you'll have a time out." Some parents who use time outs do overtly threaten their children, ie, "if you don't behave you're going to go on a time out." But even if there's no stated threat upfront, if you use time outs as a method of disciplining your child, the child will come to understand that there is an unstated threat.

I more generally don't believe it's a good idea to punish my child. We are always on the same side. It's not a my will v. his will kinda thing. If there are behavior problems, we can sit and talk about them and work on them. If he is doing something that needs to be addressed we will stop and sit down together and talk about it. Sometimes he doesn't want to do that and I suppose that feels like a negative consequence to him, but it is not a punishment. I would never say "you did X, so now I'm going to hurt you or make you feel sad."

I have a senario for you; I feel that natural consequences are a good way to learn BUT they can be a severe way to learn if the child is too young to appropriatly gage cause and effect or are even able to attribute a consequence to his actions as life consequences are not always immediate or obvious. This is a difficult way for a child to learn. I think my role as a parent is to "soften" life at times for my son (23 months). I give him a negative consequence that is less severe then a natural or life consequence would have been. If he bites me and continues to do so after talking it through and showing him where he hurt me I feel I need to set a boundery and give a consequence like remove him from the situation for a time (I don't isolate but we do stop what we are doing). He may help me put ice on my arm afterwards and give a kiss but nevertheless some kind of negative response from me is given as a "punishment" becuase to not address it seriously enough could lead to him biting another child and breaking the skin etc...that child would smack him and cry and Ben may not really even know what he did. A worse case senario would be running into a parking lot. You need to discipline (in the sense of setting bounderies and limits) so that life doesn't. I don't think this suggests for a moment that you are not both on the same side. We both want the child to healthy, safe and happy. As the parent however I need to take the lead becuase I know more and better at this point. When he knows more and better I will gladly pass the reigns on to him! I suppose then, this being my perspective that I don't understand the logic behind not "punishing" (this is a hard word, it makes me think of spanking and yelling and shaming etc... perhaps I only mean delivering consequences). What would you do in not punishing if your child has a chronic bad behaviour that is a danger to himself and others? How do you end this without stepping in with a firmer stance?

[rubidoux]

I have had the parking lot scenario happen. When my older ds was 3ish he ran into an empty school parking lot. It was in the evening and nobody was around, or he would not have had the opportunity. But he did run into it and it did make me nervous since I wasn't sure that HE understood that it was a less dangerous time to do it. So, I did grab him and sit down with him for a minute and tell him that running into parking lots, roads, etc was not ok and made me very upset and could hurt him very badly, etc. Our talk probably lasted for 2 or 3 minutes, and at the end of it I gave him a big long hug and told him I really wanted him never to get hurt. And then he was free to play...

So, I would say that I didn't punish him. We just had a little talk about a really important thing that he needed to know. Of course, it wasn't optional, he was not given the opportunity to say "mom, I don't wanna talk now I'm playing." But it still was not a punishment. My goal was not to be punitive but to educate him about the world and what I expected of him. I think in a similar situation, though, you might have done the same thing exactly except you would've called it a time out. There may be no practical difference in our parenting styles. Otoh, I think my mindset is a little different and that is probably communicated in there somewhere, but I'm not even sure about that.

As for the biting scenario, I might even be harsher about it than you. lol But I would not "punish." It probably depends how much it hurt and what the circumstances were. My older ds once bit me hard enough to draw blood while nursing but we were both asleep. I screamed, of course, but also spent quite alot of energy trying to make him feel like everything was ok bc he was alseep and didn't do it on purpose. If he had been awake, ugh, I am pretty sure I would not have sugar-coated anything. I would let him know I was upset and hurt for sure. And I *think* that's all it would take. I mean, to him, I think that would be pretty striking and he would feel regret and sadness over it and not want to do it again, I think. lol So, the natural consequence would be me being hurt and upset, maybe even mad depending on the circumstances. I get that way soooo infrequently that I think it would really make an impression on him. At any rate, I wouldn't leave it unaddressed, we'd talk about biting. But I wouldn't make it into some sort of formal punishment.

I can't really speak to the chronic bad behavior question. We haven't been there yet, thank g-d. That could be because my child is naturally mild mannered (which I think is the case, he's just been mellow from day one) or because of the way I've parented (I'd like to think that factors in at least a bit ). But let's say he was doing something like biting other children. I would HATE that one! It could possibly get to the point that I wouldn't be able to allow him around other children and I'd definately have to watch him like a hawk. We'd have alot of conversations about it and if it happened more than once, I'd probably show that I was angry. I don't yell and I don't punish, but I wouldn't have a problem being honest with him about how I felt. I don't think I would ever get to the point of punishing, but I can't be sure seeing as I haven't dealt with any behaviors that were more than a little annoying.

[happyhippy]

We as parents are so quick to discipline a behavior. "If a child bites, i must do something!" is the thinking.

I repeat this mantra to myself since the knee jerk reaction to do something is so pervasive. I say to myself "What is the meaning behind this behavior?"

If i focus on that question and then base my response to my child on that, then i can get to the underlying need, address it and the outer behavior changes. (In theory..of course things can take time, like a biting phase, etc)

Now that my child is older i can simply ask her "Why did you hit so and so?" Instead of "Stop hitting so and so!" or "If you hit her again youll have a time out." When i ask the question, i get a reason and we can go from there. Then im her ally in finding a working solution instead of the police who caught her in the act and will dole out a consequence.

For me, this is the key to maintaining attachment after the baby years.

[jennpn]

Originally Posted by rubidoux

I have had the parking lot scenario happen. When my older ds was 3ish he ran into an empty school parking lot. It was in the evening and nobody was around, or he would not have had the opportunity. But he did run into it and it did make me nervous since I wasn't sure that HE understood that it was a less dangerous time to do it. So, I did grab him and sit down with him for a minute and tell him that running into parking lots, roads, etc was not ok and made me very upset and could hurt him very badly, etc. Our talk probably lasted for 2 or 3 minutes, and at the end of it I gave him a big long hug and told him I really wanted him never to get hurt. And then he was free to play...

So, I would say that I didn't punish him. We just had a little talk about a really important thing that he needed to know. Of course, it wasn't optional, he was not given the opportunity to say "mom, I don't wanna talk now I'm playing." But it still was not a punishment. My goal was not to be punitive but to educate him about the world and what I expected of him. I think in a similar situation, though, you might have done the same thing exactly except you would've called it a time out. There may be no practical difference in our parenting styles. Otoh, I think my mindset is a little different and that is probably communicated in there somewhere, but I'm not even sure about that.

As for the biting scenario, I might even be harsher about it than you. lol But I would not "punish." It probably depends how much it hurt and what the circumstances were. My older ds once bit me hard enough to draw blood while nursing but we were both asleep. I screamed, of course, but also spent quite alot of energy trying to make him feel like everything was ok bc he was alseep and didn't do it on purpose. If he had been awake, ugh, I am pretty sure I would not have sugar-coated anything. I would let him know I was upset and hurt for sure. And I *think* that's all it would take. I mean, to him, I think that would be pretty striking and he would feel regret and sadness over it and not want to do it again, I think. lol So, the natural consequence would be me being hurt and upset, maybe even mad depending on the circumstances. I get that way soooo infrequently that I think it would really make an impression on him. At any rate, I wouldn't leave it unaddressed, we'd talk about biting. But I wouldn't make it into some sort of formal punishment.

I can't really speak to the chronic bad behavior question. We haven't been there yet, thank g-d. That could be because my child is naturally mild mannered (which I think is the case, he's just been mellow from day one) or because of the way I've parented (I'd like to think that factors in at least a bit ). But let's say he was doing something like biting other children. I would HATE that one! It could possibly get to the point that I wouldn't be able to allow him around other children and I'd definately have to watch him like a hawk. We'd have alot of conversations about it and if it happened more than once, I'd probably show that I was angry. I don't yell and I don't punish, but I wouldn't have a problem being honest with him about how I felt. I don't think I would ever get to the point of punishing, but I can't be sure seeing as I haven't dealt with any behaviors that were more than a little annoying.

I suppose we aren't so different we are only calling it something different. I give consequences, which are not punishments. which often times is only a discussion not something arbritrary that doesn't relate to the situation. If ds being only 2 isn't ready to talk about it we can take a moment away together from a situation to wait until he is...I don't threaten with this, only use it if needed. Sitting with mommy is hardly a punishment as he would rather do that over anything else anyhow. I understand what you mean about what came first the temperment or the parenting. I wonder sometimes while silently gloating about my well behaved, compassionate, thoughtful toddler that it must be due to me and my "awesome parenting" when largly it probably has a little more to do with his "awesome mellow and eager to please temperment thanks to genetics...from his father!" If I had a high strung spirited child (ehrm...me..) I am not sure everything would go so smoothly. I can remember many a conversation with my mother as she tried to "work through" something with me that ended in my screaming, throwing and at one point mirror smashing responses...I fear this child may be in my future and I will bite my tongue at past remarks more then once!