soaked flour & grain sensitivity

[jiva]

I didn't know where this should go...but it relates to soaked flour...sorry if it's in the wrong spot!
My son has a very mild gluten sensitivity. Our naturopath has him taking some homeopathics to help "desensitize" him of this, but has said that we need to reduce wheat consumption to about half of what we eat (and we eat a fair amount...I like to bake) or else he could end up with a real problem with gluten on day.
So my question is, does soaking whole wheat flour (fresh, my mom grinds it for us) make the proteins more digestible for someone with just a sensitivity and not a full-blown allergy? I usually keep things like muffins around for quick snacks and well, we just really love our wheat! Ack!
Anyone had any experience with this?
I'm very new to soaked flour recipes, so any tips would be great.

[crunchy_mama]

I would absolutely not feed a gluten sensitive child soaked grain products- no way = no how. I would be cutting all the gluten personally. How was the sensitivity diagnosed? What are the symptoms? Any other problems- behavioral- physical- developmental- etc?

[jiva]

Ok, here's why I even consider such a foolish idea...he was "diagnosed" by an Asyra test (biofeedback meets homeopathy). It's somewhat based on his blood type...which I only half-heartedly believe in (I'm an herbalist and have my on contrary ideas about things). I love, love, love my ND, but there are philosophical differences between us. They are very much anti-dairy and we are very much pro-fresh eggs and yogurt (although we don't eat meat)...and while I believe blood type has something to do with our dietary choices, I also feel that my son's immune system has no reason to overreact to a food...he tested a year ago with no sensitivities. ND says he likely consumed too much wheat for his body to handle over the past year...true, I was pregnant and we ate lots of sandwiches. Since he's been on their remedy, his disposition has greatly improved. I've reduced gluten maybe 50%, as she recommended.

[crunchy_mama]

hmmm - I don't know then. He was having some symptoms of some problem then? This seems improved w/ less gluten? I would cut it out. But that is just me. If you are going to do wheat yes- at least soak it so it is digestable. You should see us at the allergy board lots of us have kids who have no reasons to have their immune system compromised- yet here we are- wonderful healthy pregnancies- peaceful natural birth- nursing our babes exclusively- delayed solids - all that jazz- yet it doesn't mean that these things cannot happen- I wouldn't discount the idea on that thought alone. It goes back to so much more- how were you nourished as a child(how about your mother and so on)- what kind of toxins have any of you been exposed to knowingly or unknowingly- perhaps you have a genetic predisposition towards something brought on by other factors- who knows. However, this has been my path and we all have biases on our own path.

[jiva]

Crunchy-mama, I hope I didn't offend you. I have been lurking about in the allergy forum and I know of several mamas IRL who did everything right and still deal with multiple allergies in their children. I just meant that I don't understand why this hasn't come up sooner. He turned four a few months ago and that's when the behavioral changes started (so we at first assumed it was his age). I only suspected something was up because he was acting similar to when he had Lyme spirochetes...we were actually testing to see if he still had them (he didn't) when the food sensitivity showed up. But believe me, I understand how it feels to do everything right and still has issues arise...my second son was born with a hypospadia despite our diet and lifestyle not being conducive to such a defect...but obviously something went wrong along the way...

Anyways, my ND says her kids have the same issue and that's why she said reducing but not eliminating gluten is fine...she's apparently dealing with it too. And again, a lot of this is based on blood type (and ds's is the same as mine)...he doesn't get rashy or show signs of digestive distress...and he hasn't seen a conventional ped...just an ND. That's all. I just wondered how much of the allergenic qualities of wheat were reduced by soaking.

Sorry to get so off topic...I just wanted to clear up that I meant in no way place blame or minimize the importance of the allergy issue.

[crunchy_mama]

Oh, no I was not offended. I don't carry blame for it. You have to do what you feel is right for your child. I think if your child is trying to heal from anything gluten is a horrible load on their system. I don't know that I have seen any healing diet which includes it. That is jmo though, I admit I am horribly biased. However, if you seen improvements after eliminating part of them I would eliminate all for a test for about 4-6 weeks- then slowly introduce and see what happens as you never know the level of sensitivity until you get it all out. I do understand gluten is a huge one to elminate besides the fact that it is in so many things- it causes an addictive reaction in your brain and many of our comfort foods are associated with gluten. But, we all have to go on our own intuition and do what feels right. As I said I know I am biased from the road I have traveled.

[Cristiaz]

Eating lots of gluten products as babies, toddlers, kids does create gluten intolerance. I'm celiac, I've done A TON of research. If he tested positive on any scale I wouldn't give it to him. Gluten is different than other "allergies". It causes an auto immune response. My NMD has cured allergies with homeopathics as well but there are some that are not meant to be cured. I do put some faith in the blood type connection only because I see it first hand at my work. Most celiacs are O's. Type A's can have problems with wheat though, just not all gluten. I bake a lot too....its just a matter of switching flours and getting used to gluten free baking. Maybe if you did some more research on how awful gluten is for a sensitive individuals, you'd feel differently.

I work at a health food store and lots of people actually come in asking for advice. I've seen mothers of 2 or 3 olds who's children almost died and what was wrong with them was celiac. Then theres me...as a kid, I did ok but I had lots of gastro issues my whole life and was always sick. My immune system is not as strong as it could be. I'm 32 now and diagnosed myself finally, with much relief of my pain. So we are all created different. My point is, gluten sensitivity should not be taken lightly. You and/or your husband could be too and you don't know it yet. There is a form of gluten intolerance called "silent" celiac disease...no symptons but health problems do arise.

[Cristiaz]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

hmmm - I don't know then. He was having some symptoms of some problem then? This seems improved w/ less gluten? I would cut it out. But that is just me. If you are going to do wheat yes- at least soak it so it is digestable. You should see us at the allergy board lots of us have kids who have no reasons to have their immune system compromised- yet here we are- wonderful healthy pregnancies- peaceful natural birth- nursing our babes exclusively- delayed solids - all that jazz- yet it doesn't mean that these things cannot happen- I wouldn't discount the idea on that thought alone. It goes back to so much more- how were you nourished as a child(how about your mother and so on)- what kind of toxins have any of you been exposed to knowingly or unknowingly- perhaps you have a genetic predisposition towards something brought on by other factors- who knows. However, this has been my path and we all have biases on our own path.

An immune response to gluten doesn't mean the immune system isn't strong. Especially with little ones...its just their way of saying their bodies don't want it. If a child keeps eating it, then their immune system weakens because it doesn't get a break...its constantly fighting off the gluten. I think healthy kids bodies speak more freely and can easily know what they do not want. Gluten intolerance is so common yet so overlooked that a child is lucky to be diagnosed asap before real damage occurs.

[crunchy_mama]

Some would wonder though what is triggering the Celiac to come on in the first place though you know? What triggers that immune response to happen? Even w/ a genetic predisposition it doesn't mean it will manifest- so why it does in others and not in some is the million dollar question w/ many answers.

I am very anti-gluten as well- as I said I am way more than a little biased. I was the sickly child as well. Barely made it as a baby. The dr's thought my mom was starving me- literally. However, once in middle school I went into a remission- as often happens. Then after pregnancy #1 my body rebelled again. Now- I am off of gluten and have been for almost a year now. Unfortunately my son appears to have Celiac as well and my daughter even though she has hardly had any herself in her short life has a wicked gluten reaction. Alas though I will never put us through the hell required to get the official diagnosis of the dr. Positive genes and antibodies are convincing enough for me- and after reading about the myriad of problems associated w/ gluten I really think it is a poison personally- so yep- totally biased.

[Cristiaz]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

Some would wonder though what is triggering the Celiac to come on in the first place though you know? What triggers that immune response to happen? Even w/ a genetic predisposition it doesn't mean it will manifest- so why it does in others and not in some is the million dollar question w/ many answers.

I am very anti-gluten as well- as I said I am way more than a little biased. I was the sickly child as well. Barely made it as a baby. The dr's thought my mom was starving me- literally. However, once in middle school I went into a remission- as often happens. Then after pregnancy #1 my body rebelled again. Now- I am off of gluten and have been for almost a year now. Unfortunately my son appears to have Celiac as well and my daughter even though she has hardly had any herself in her short life has a wicked gluten reaction. Alas though I will never put us through the hell required to get the official diagnosis of the dr. Positive genes and antibodies are convincing enough for me- and after reading about the myriad of problems associated w/ gluten I really think it is a poison personally- so yep- totally biased.

Traditionally speaking, grains entered the equation later on. Meat and veggies were first. Lots of people have problems with grains. I think that processing the hell out of wheat has created celiac disease. My daughter doesn't seem celiac to me at all. But when I allow her to have wheat (which is a very rare occurance to test her with it) she only poops once the next day. Poop is the mirror to true health!!! Sounds crazy...but we are meant to poop one to three times a day. She poops three times a day but if she has wheat its less. So that tells me shes not super sensitive but her digestive tract doesn't care for it. So I don't give it to her. Gluten is evil, in my book. Not only to celiacs but everyone. If its sprouted, it can be good in people who do well with that. Sprouting grains is the traditional way to eat them. Gluten intolerance is estimated to effect 1 in 100 or so people, most not knowing it. I'm totally biased as well. I can spot people who are gluten intolerant so easily now. All of those unexplained health problems? Gluten!

Oh, what triggers that immune response to come on in the first place is just the body saying it does not want it. It is that simple and it is normal.

[crunchy_mama]

I agree w/ you about grains. I *try* to follow a Paleo diet as best as I can. I am a total poop watcher as well My 2 yr old had gluten via my diet and then a few times from her brother before I took us all off of it. This last week she got some crumbs and she was up w/ diarrhea all night. I really was kind of surprised. I had never recognized symptoms in her from gluten although I was off of dairy for her. However, knowing that my son has both a Celiac and gluten intolerant gene I know that the odds are not in her favor

As to the immune response I would just disagree. I think that the response can be set off by different things(especially judging by the mom's and the allergy boards and the many different paths that have led to intolerances)- the response might be the same but what causes the response is different I believe. However, in the long run I don't think it matters much as I do not believe we are designed to eat grains. Certainly these years of improperly preparing them hasn't helped our bodies and the myriad of other toxins in our environment(physical and emotional) have created great stresses on our bodies.

[jiva]

I know it doesn't sound that way, but I do understand the effects of gluten on a sensitive system. When I was studying to be an herbalist, it was through a school based on the eclectics...who cleansed the body with herbs and rebuilt and maintained it with an 85% raw diet...no dairy, all things sprouted. The immune system and digestive tract were the point of focus. I do get it.
Dh was diagnosed with IBS in middle school and was triggered by fiber...mostly the insoluble stuff. So I know there's a predisposition there. Dh hasn't had any symptoms of IBS in the past 3 or 4 years now...even though he eats his trigger foods almost daily (green leafy stuff). So I guess I'm coming at it from a different place. Ds doesn't break out or have diarrhea from gluten (his symptoms? He had become angry and frustrated...very uncharacteristic, even though he's 4) and because dh is all but over the ibs, I guess I see the possibilities there. I dunno. Sorry to start something.

[crunchy_mama]

If any of my posts seem curt or rude it is unattended- I don't have any ill thoughts of anyone- I think we can disagree that is ok. As I said we all have different paths that form our decision- we have to do whatever we think is best! No hard feelings or thoughts about it though!

[Junegoddess]

Originally Posted by Cristiaz

Then theres me...as a kid, I did ok but I had lots of gastro issues my whole life and was always sick. My immune system is not as strong as it could be. I'm 32 now and diagnosed myself finally, with much relief of my pain. So we are all created different. My point is, gluten sensitivity should not be taken lightly. You and/or your husband could be too and you don't know it yet. There is a form of gluten intolerance called "silent" celiac disease...no symptons but health problems do arise.

:

That's sounds like me! I didn't get it figured out until I was 30 years old. FWIW, I'm a type O, too, as is my son who just got diagnosed with gluten intolerance. He has a double copy of one of the non-Celiac gluten-intolerance genes, just like me, and had elevated antibodies. He had no clear, obvious symptoms, but I'm making the whole house go gluten-free now.

Oh, and "angry and frustrated" can be signs of gluten-intolerance. I have many more neurological symptoms than digestive ones. I was an angry, frustrated child in general. I was so frequently foggy-headed, unfocused, tired, uncomfortable in my own skin... with no way to know it was unusual to be that way, so I didn't tell anyone about it. I also had tummy aches and a CONSTANTLY dripping nose, but my mom didn't have any idea about allergies, so no one ever connected the dots. Even as an adult I was often so foggy-headed that I was angry and easily-frustrated beyond my ability to cope.

I understand your hesitancy... I've been 'diagnosed' with things by a naturopath that just didn't seem accurate at all. Even had one tell me my daughter would be mentally slow because she got teeth too early and it used the calcium her brain needed to grow. But I'm like crunchy_mama... I know too well the nightmare of gluten. I think everyone on the planet ought to give themselves a month off it, to see if it's a problem for them.

[jiva]

No crunchy mama, you were not coming across curt or rude. I really do appreciate everyone's imput.
Yep, I know his symptoms were related to gluten...he's back to his normal self after 3 weeks on the homeopathic and with a 50% reduction in his gluten intake (well, for all of us really). Maybe one day I'll fully come around. I've felt for years that we need to reduce our wheat intake just 'cause I think too much of anything is bad...I just got hooked on the ease of baking muffins to use as a snack or grab on our way out the door.
Like many of you, I knew as a child that eating too much bread could easily become addictive for me and make me feel groggy and that uncomfortable in one's skin feeling Junegoddess mentioned. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. My entire family is o- and none of us were sickly as children or have overt symptoms now. We've been lucky.
I guess I'm just in denial, but in my defense, I am the daughter of a woman who any given day has loaves of sourdough bread rising on her countertop for 12 hours...

[Cristiaz]

Originally Posted by jiva

No crunchy mama, you were not coming across curt or rude. I really do appreciate everyone's imput.
Yep, I know his symptoms were related to gluten...he's back to his normal self after 3 weeks on the homeopathic and with a 50% reduction in his gluten intake (well, for all of us really). Maybe one day I'll fully come around. I've felt for years that we need to reduce our wheat intake just 'cause I think too much of anything is bad...I just got hooked on the ease of baking muffins to use as a snack or grab on our way out the door.
Like many of you, I knew as a child that eating too much bread could easily become addictive for me and make me feel groggy and that uncomfortable in one's skin feeling Junegoddess mentioned. I just didn't know what it meant at the time. My entire family is o- and none of us were sickly as children or have overt symptoms now. We've been lucky.
I guess I'm just in denial, but in my defense, I am the daughter of a woman who any given day has loaves of sourdough bread rising on her countertop for 12 hours...

I was in denial for years, so don't feel bad about that. I started working at the health food store 4 1/2 years ago and would get my mystery pains at work sometimes and they'd let me lay down. The women I work with have always been blood type diet believers so they kept trying to convince me I was gluten intolerant. Since gluten was in my diet in such a large way, I told them they were wrong. I did this for 2 years! At first it wasn't so much denial as it didn't make sense to me. My pains were sporatic and made no sense. I thought I'd have to have an immediate reaction after eating it. And as Junegoddess pointed out the foggy head/out of your own body feeling, I had that forever so I was used to it. After having my daughter, when she was about 7 months old, my mystery pains were almost constant and I had to always lay down, which is hard taking care of a baby...so I got desperate and went off all gluten for a week. No more pains since!!!! When I look back at my life I know it would of been a better one with out gluten. As a kid, my mom kept me stocked up on pepto (yuck)...the pains started when I was 18. I missed out on dates, parties, etc. cuz the pain would appear. I lost a couple jobs because when I would try to tell them what was going on it made no sense to them and they thought I was lying. I saw about 20 doctors over the course of my adult life and not one ever figured it out. Even gastro doctors. Well, theres my story, lol.

On another note, for starters, go to wholelifenutrition.net and buy her cookbook, then check out her glutenfree blog. Lots of yummy muffin recipes. I've made a lot of them and no one can tell they do not have gluten. You can get used to it and even come to love being gluten free, as I do.

[WuWei]

This is a fascinating topic which we've been exploring in the Allergies forum, (avoidance vs. detox). We are working on the theory that most food intolerances could be relieved with proper stomach acid, adequate nutrient absorption for opening detox pathways, and proper food processing, such as soaking/sprouting whole grains. AND whole food probiotics.

I'm curious about the hypospadia, which could be considered a 'midline defect', along with tongue-tie, butt dimples, septate uterus, cleft-palate, etc. We are finding these are associated with the MTHFR genetic variation and food folate deficiency. Folic acid supplementation 'fills up' the receptor sites and folate is unable to be utilized properly. Check out the links in the first post of our chat thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1119033

Basically, the intolerances (auto-immune issue) develop over time due to inability to detox undigested proteins (leading to leaky gut). Wheat and dairy are difficult to digest without adequate stomach acid and cause behavior issues when the whole proteins leak into the blood system. [This neurophysiologist identified the correlation between gut dysbiosis and psychological beahviors such as ADHD. http://www.behealthy.org.uk/gaps.pdf ]

Soaking whole grains in homemade raw milk kefir does provide for neutralizing the phytic acid, and provides enzymes, prebiotics and probiotics to help digest the proteins. Using A2 milk helps to diminish intolerances also, it seems. But, behavioral issues are associated with food intolerances developing. Our son has similar intolerances to wheat, classical homeopathy has helped him tremendously. I use the Sue Gregg blender batter method for soaking whole grains, avoiding wheat. http://www.suegregg.com/recipes/brea...erwafflesA.htm

Also, regarding digestion and detox issues: Where to start? Help 101

I'd love for you to chime in and help us to learn more about herbal remedies and herbal detox alternatives. This is an area about which we are all interested in learning more! And the mamas have many recipes for gluten-free baking. KJBrown is amazing!! She has a website with many allergen free recipes. The woman made Twinkies without eggs, wheat, dairy. LOL www.kathysrecipebox.com


Pat

[Sailor]

I was in denial about my own issues for a long time as well. When I was a kid, I had a lot of acne issues, as well as rash spots. It looked a little like eczema .... but, slightly different. Now, it was only like 5 or 6 spots on my body so I ignored it. I also had tons of mucus issues - like, I don't ever remember breathing clearly through my nose as kid or teen.

My family ate a lot of grains, and a lot of dairy - though, at least, it was raw dairy.

Later, as an adult, I was a raw food vegan. My skin issues, and mucus issues went away completely. But, I still had digestive issues.

Recently, (in the last two months) I've switched to a TF diet ... actually, it's more Paleo as I'm (sadly!) allergic to dairy (even in raw form). But, I can have eggs and meat fortunately. I recently, in the last year, eliminated gluten ... and man do I finally feel 100% fantastic. What a difference it makes!

So ... I wouldn't ignore all the gluten elimination ideas. It really makes a huge difference if your body can't tolerate it. Now, I know some people have cured themselves of such intolerances ... but, it's not possible for everyone. Definitely try - but, don't force it if it's just not happening.

[Tigeresse]

This is a vey timely thread for me! Very interesting! I can totally relate to some of your stories. Last week my 17yo ds was diagnosed w/celiac. He was diagnosed type 1 diabetic last fall. He is a type O. Typical type O autoimmune stuff. We started eliminating gluten immediately after his biopsy, 2 weeks before getting his diagnosis. I am also type O (non-secretor) diagnosed w/IBS at age 30 which I had for probably 10 years before that. No one tested me for gluten intolerance. Developed hypothyroid at age 33 after being a vegetarian for several years and having babies/nursing at the same time. Typical O stuff,esp. for more sensitive non-secretors. I became an omnivore after reading Eat Right for Your Type in 1997, long story short went more TF and what-not since, as I thought the blood-type thing was kind of debunked. Well now here we are coming full circle and I realize maybe the blood-type connection is more true than I thought. I dug out all my old books and was happy to see that Dr. D'Adamo has a thriving website and a new book. It has not been debunked!

Anyway, more on topic, I also believe gluten and type O's especially do not mix. Many type O's would be best to go completely or almost grain-free. I for one, did not have any immediate reaction to gluten like my ds did. It was very hard to connect my symptoms to what I ate. This can be very common in gluten sensitive/celiac people. There may be no symptoms at all. I'm beginning to think gluten-free will be best for all of us, incl. my one type A kid.

[jiva]

WuWei...tmi, but my entire family has butt dimples! I didn't realize that was on par with midline defects. Ds2, who has the hypospadia, has always come back with a clean bill of health from his ND tests...although he's 2, so it could just be that nothing has manifested. He was sick more his first year (6 minor illnesses vs. 1 for ds1's first year...last year was much better!) so I was sure he'd be my puzzle...but it seems ds1 is so far.

When training as an herbalist, I was taught that the body could be "reset" by a cleansing diet and herb formulations...that basically every cell in the body wants to function properly and despite our inherited quirks, each cell still retains a memory of "perfect" (for lack of a better word) dna. It's a huge undertaking and sounds unconventional, I know, but that's where I'm coming from. If my son had a more severe reaction, I'd likely go that route instead of using homeopathics, which are my ND's specialty, not mine.

Ds1 (the one with the confirmed sensitivity) Asyra came back with a list of food sensitivities that he's never even eaten...shellfish, for one...never had it. But his list consisted of o- food sensitivities with gluten coming up as currently affecting him.

Thanks for the links and personal experience, everyone!