Would you consider taking part in a vaccine study? - Page 2

[newmum35]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Interesting. I was not overly clear on how vaccine trials work. Still seems like it would throw the results. Huh.

Vaccine studies with "placebo" NEVER use a REAL PLACEBO - ALL OTHER scientific studies use a real placebo - saline solution, a sugar pill, NEVER against another DRUG!!! VAccine studies are the only ones that always use ANOTHER VACCINE!!! It is because they KNOW that the results will show it is better to NOT have the vaccine than to have it, if they use a TRUE placebo!! So they always skew the results in favor of the "new" vaccine by comparing it to another vaccine already on the market (which has side effects of course) in order that the "new" vaccine being tested will not look as bad!!!! These companies are "smart" in that they know exactly what to do in order their product always passes the test!! It is disgusting that we even allow this or think it acceptible!

[mamakah]

No no no no no no no no no no no!!!!! Never. Ever.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by newmum35

Vaccine studies with "placebo" NEVER use a REAL PLACEBO - ALL OTHER scientific studies use a real placebo - saline solution, a sugar pill, NEVER against another DRUG!!! VAccine studies are the only ones that always use ANOTHER VACCINE!!! It is because they KNOW that the results will show it is better to NOT have the vaccine than to have it, if they use a TRUE placebo!! So they always skew the results in favor of the "new" vaccine by comparing it to another vaccine already on the market (which has side effects of course) in order that the "new" vaccine being tested will not look as bad!!!! These companies are "smart" in that they know exactly what to do in order their product always passes the test!! It is disgusting that we even allow this or think it acceptible!

Not true. There are trials of vaccines using saline placebos. example:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lacebo&rank=11

Phase I, Double-Blinded, Placebo-Controlled Dosage-Escalation Study of the Safety and Immunogenicity of EBA-175 RII-NG Malaria Vaccine Administered Intramuscularly

Drug: Placebo
0.5 mL normal saline placebo.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Not true. There are trials of vaccines using saline placebos. example:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...lacebo&rank=11

Do you know if any of the licensed vaccines that are currently on the US childhood immunization schedule were compared to a saline placebo during clinical trials??

[carriebft]

Yes, I posted links to one for rotavirus, DTaP in pregnant women, and influenza in children 6-18 years a while back either here or another board; I will find them and repost.

here's the DTaP one:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...accine&rank=55

the thing with this site is that once its completeld, you can't always get the full description anymore; it shortens it and you cannot tell what the placebo was. this dtap one is ongoing right now as are most of the ones you can search. there is another site I like better and I will get the rota one from there because you can actually read the whole text. just gotta give me some time since I have to work 4-8.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Yes, I posted links to one for rotavirus, DTaP in pregnant women, and influenza in children 6-18 years a while back either here or another board; I will find them and repost.

here's the DTaP one:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...accine&rank=55

the thing with this site is that once its completeld, you can't always get the full description anymore; it shortens it and you cannot tell what the placebo was. this dtap one is ongoing right now as are most of the ones you can search. there is another site I like better and I will get the rota one from there because you can actually read the whole text. just gotta give me some time since I have to work 4-8.

Thanks! totally off topic but I just noticed this criteria for participants in this trials

Willing to have infant immunized with Pentacel vaccine at 2, 4, 6, and 12 months of age.

this seems totally bizarre to me. I would love to know the rationale for this.

[newmum35]

Originally Posted by carriebft

here's the DTaP one:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...accine&rank=55

well Holy Cow, bust my buttons, I am gobsmacked lol (thank you for sharing)

That's actually Tdap and not the same (DTaP) as the babies get.

It is still interesting. I look forward to your other links. Is this a new trend? Because historically, they have NOT used real placebos. I noticed the trial is new and wonder if they are hearing our complaints and hope to discredit our concerns by using some real placebos in some of the trials.

[carriebft]

sorry forgot about this until just now. OK, so here is what I have on my at the moment. Please note that this is kinda a work in progress; once I found that there were a few saline placebo studies I got curious and now I search around now and then when I get a minute and a whim:

Vaccines that I have evidence for saline placebo studies:

HPV:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...rttext&tlng=en

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18561684

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/597071 (this one is only the abstract but the placebo was saline which you can find through a search on google scholar)

Rotavirus:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/fti...t=0&format=pdf

Pentacel:
http://www.informahealthcare.com/doi...712598.6.8.807 )again, the abstract doesn't say but the blurb you get when searching for saline placebo on google scholar quotes the line of the study saying it is, indeed, a saline placebo)

PCV:
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Fulltex...njugate.1.aspx

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...tract/99/4/575

meningococcal
http://iai.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/8/3391


influenza:
http://mayoclinproc.highwire.org/content/83/1/77.full (search saline- couple studies linked here)

There are actually quite a few for influenza, I won't post them all but I have found about 8 so far but I guess that must be because there are so many strains/new vaccine each year and the mist v the injection so lots more opportunity for study.

more tomorrow! I know I have more marked I just need to fish them back out. In the end, I guess I have just been wowed by all I didn't know...I had taken the 'no saline placebo' thing as true and it turned out to not be true...just another assumption that has been taken down for me.

[shoebootie]

No way!

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Interesting. I was not overly clear on how vaccine trials work. Still seems like it would throw the results. Huh.

Clinical trials are only as reliable and ethical as the participants. There was an article in New Scientist about this recently. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but DH was telling me it talked about people who routinely participate in clinical trials as a job. Reporting side effects and waiting the required time between trials may mean less money so participants may be tempted to not do either.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by serenitii

Clinical trials are only as reliable and ethical as the participants. There was an article in New Scientist about this recently. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but DH was telling me it talked about people who routinely participate in clinical trials as a job. Reporting side effects and waiting the required time between trials may mean less money so participants may be tempted to not do either.

GAH! Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

[MyLilPwny]

No, I would never get any vaccines ever because I think all vaccines are harmful and ineffective; health and immunity do not come from vaccines. That is why my daughter is unvaccinated.

[mom2allofthem]

no

[polishprinsezz]

no thanks. too scary too risky.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by carriebft

sorry forgot about this until just now. OK, so here is what I have on my at the moment. Please note that this is kinda a work in progress; once I found that there were a few saline placebo studies I got curious and now I search around now and then when I get a minute and a whim:

Vaccines that I have evidence for saline placebo studies:

HPV:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...rttext&tlng=en

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18561684

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/597071 (this one is only the abstract but the placebo was saline which you can find through a search on google scholar)

Rotavirus:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/fti...t=0&format=pdf

Pentacel:
http://www.informahealthcare.com/doi...712598.6.8.807 )again, the abstract doesn't say but the blurb you get when searching for saline placebo on google scholar quotes the line of the study saying it is, indeed, a saline placebo)

PCV:
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Fulltex...njugate.1.aspx

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...tract/99/4/575

meningococcal
http://iai.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/8/3391


influenza:
http://mayoclinproc.highwire.org/content/83/1/77.full (search saline- couple studies linked here)

There are actually quite a few for influenza, I won't post them all but I have found about 8 so far but I guess that must be because there are so many strains/new vaccine each year and the mist v the injection so lots more opportunity for study.

more tomorrow! I know I have more marked I just need to fish them back out. In the end, I guess I have just been wowed by all I didn't know...I had taken the 'no saline placebo' thing as true and it turned out to not be true...just another assumption that has been taken down for me.

thanks for these...I have only just begun to look. (so little time) but this jumped right out at me in one of the PCV studies

Safety data were collected for 72 hours after each vaccination

3 days...3 days I mean seriously they feel they can state something is safe after 3 days?? I realize it is 3 days after EACH injection and there is a total of three injections, each seaparated by 2 months. This is basically just looking for rare allergic reaction that may result in immediate reactions. What about reactions that can and most certainly do occur after 3 days? This discounts any reactions that may occur between injections that happened after 3 days and it certainly doesn't take into account any cumulative effects. Makes no sense to me!! I'm sorry but for me...I need safety data for a hell of a lot longer than 3 days before I would even begin to consider taking something or giving it to my child.

[weliveintheforest]

I would not do this, although I admit I'd be tempted for the money. Not worth the potential side effects.

[carriebft]

I am sure there are tons of things to pick apart in each of these-- and I have tons more here!!! I guess, for me, looking into these is more about breaking down the myths I believed and coming to realize that there is a lot more I need to look into.

[redcanoe]

No Way! I'm perfectly healthy as I am, and I don't want a jab to mess that up!

[Karamom]

no way!