do you think its self defeating to lactivism - Page 6

[peainthepod]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I was totally impressed when one of my friends stood up for me when someone tried to tell me I couldn't nurse in a public governmental office. My friend said, "You have a constitutional right to breastfeed here!" -- and to punctuate her point, she pulled up her shirt, exposing her entire breast (she didn't wear a bra), and invited her toddler to nurse, which he did.

By the way, the office employee who was getting onto me, went back into her office, shut the door, and left us totally alone after that.

:

Your friend is a hero. What an inspiring anecdote--thanks for sharing!

[Bookworm715]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I very much agree that it's wrong to "shoot disapproving stares" at mothers for not doing what we would do.

And I certainly don't think the "only" way to be a good mom is to nurse freely whatever situation you are in when your child gets hungry (though it is TOTALLY bad parenting to make a baby wait to be fed, whatever your feeding method) ...

Also, I agree that there are many good moms who aren't able or inclined to do child-led weaning for whatever reason. No need to shoot disapproving stares at them either.

That said, I STILL feel saddened by the societal attitudes which I see as the main force driving so many women to feel it could never work for them to nurse freely, or to let their children wean at their own paces. And I know we're not all just passive beings being driven along by "societal forces" ...

I fully support everyone having a choice, and no one should set themself up as judge over another person. BUT, I still commend every mother who's willing to nurse openly, because this is how people get used to it as a normal part of human, mammalian life.

This doesn't mean I don't commend the mothers who nurse in any way, shape, or form. It's certainly not about making yourself uncomfortable "for the greater good." Let's just be ourselves, and let everyone else be themselves, too.

I was totally impressed when one of my friends stood up for me when someone tried to tell me I couldn't nurse in a public governmental office. My friend said, "You have a constitutional right to breastfeed here!" -- and to punctuate her point, she pulled up her shirt, exposing her entire breast (she didn't wear a bra), and invited her toddler to nurse, which he did.

By the way, the office employee who was getting onto me, went back into her office, shut the door, and left us totally alone after that.

I consider myself to be an "open nurser" -- but my friend's bold move (on my behalf) went way above and beyond anything I'd be capable of doing on her behalf (I mean, I would speak up in her behalf, I just couldn't pull out my whole breast like she did).

But -- we're not in a competition: I can commend her for having complete boldness and no shame about exposing her entire breast, without having to demean myself over my own need to keep most of my breast covered.

I love this last paragraph. But I just don't see how what your friend did helps the cause, if the cause is making BFing more accepted and mainstream. I'm sure she left you guys alone because she was horrified. I can't say that I would be unphased by a woman yanking up her shirt in what seems almost confrontational.

I go back to my previous example- say you're a parent with very strict religious beliefs and are sitting in the same waiting room. You wouldn't be a bit peeved at someone exposing their breast in front of your child? YOU might not see a breast as a big deal (frankly, I don't, but the majority of the population does, and many for religious reasons) but you can't respect that someone else might? I appreciate when people use courtesy around my children.

I've gotten warm smiles from elderly men who notice me nursing- you can tell that it brings a memory to them of their own wives nursing their babies. There's something so soft and nurturing and feminine about a nursing mother but the 'in your face' style of attempting to normalize it seems to take away from that so much.

[Adsullata]

A little late to the table here, and I haven't read all the posts, but here's my answer to the OP's question:

No, I don't think it's self-defeating to lactivism to say that women are allowed to feed their babies however they see fit, even with full breast exposed.

What is self-defeating is the judging of each other and expecting someone else to behave as we do simply because we were able to nurse a certain way. Whether it's judging one mother for using a cover or another for full exposure, both defeat the whole of the cause. That is, if the cause is achieving higher rates of successful breastfeeding, passing judgment on any mother for how she feeds her child is detrimental to that goal. As long as there is that judgment of each other, there will be at least one part of the nursing population that feels isolated and persecuted.

What hurts the cause is a mother who assumes that because she can nurse a particular way, other mothers should nurse in a similar manner. We have no right to make these assumptions, especially if we are not personally acquainted with the mother in question. Without that personal knowledge, there is no way of knowing why a mother is nursing the way she is and, thus, dictating how breastfeeding should be done will always exclude someone and potentially be a detriment to breastfeeding success.

Insisting that being modest while nursing is dumb or insisting that showing breast while nursing is dumb hurts the cause. There is no way to know what will work for each and every mother-child dyad, as they are each their own individual relationship. There is a broad spectrum of what works for each pair, so insistence on a particular method or on avoiding certain nursing behaviors, is impractical at best and damaging at worst.

There should not be emphasis on either end of the spectrum, but rather the emphasis should be placed on the whole spectrum itself. That is to say, that breastfeeding (and NIP) can be presented as a wide range of options within which every mother will have a better chance of finding what will successfully work for her and her child. "The Cause" can only be assisted by this level of inclusiveness. Mothers and mothers-to-be who see the full spectrum of nursing will see themselves in there somewhere and ultimately feel okay about their own decisions, regardless of how they nurse their children. It is also a means of education, teaching by example different methods that work for different dyads. Then, whether the mother whose child nurses covered or the mother whose child won't tolerate any coverage nearby and everyone in between, could all feel they are nursing "normally".

Besides, as most of us can probably attest, how we nurse is not so much something we control, but is often determined by our babies and what style of nursing makes our child comfortable. Which is exactly why we should make further effort to not pass judgment on another mother because she is not nursing how we think she could or should nurse. It should not be about making society comfortable or uncomfortable. It's all about the comfort of the mother and child and if we remain focused on that, the cause will be furthered.

[elanorh]

Originally Posted by Bookworm715

I go back to my previous example- say you're a parent with very strict religious beliefs and are sitting in the same waiting room. You wouldn't be a bit peeved at someone exposing their breast in front of your child? YOU might not see a breast as a big deal (frankly, I don't, but the majority of the population does, and many for religious reasons) but you can't respect that someone else might? I appreciate when people use courtesy around my children.

I've gotten warm smiles from elderly men who notice me nursing- you can tell that it brings a memory to them of their own wives nursing their babies. There's something so soft and nurturing and feminine about a nursing mother but the 'in your face' style of attempting to normalize it seems to take away from that so much.

Two things.

First, you continue to assume that women who aren't nursing like you nurse, are doing so intentionally to be 'in your face' and make a statement about breastfeeding. There are lots of dyads who just aren't able to nurse 'discreetly' (or as discreetly as you'd like). Moms of twins. Moms nursing a twiddling toddler. Babies (like mine) who would lift the cover and throw it aside if they were covered (and that's a lot more exposure than my 'lift the shirt' method gives out). Mothers who have larger busts. The list goes on. Apparently that entire group of women, regardless of whether they intended to be 'discourteous' in their nursing, ought to stay home so they don't damage the breastfeeding cause??

Perhaps, if I wanted to expend a tremendous amount of time and effort, I could teach my babies to lay still and accept a blanket over their heads while nursing, so that I might appear 'courteous' to those around me while nursing. I've got better things to do with my time than that. Especially because I still am not convinced that nursing the way I nurse is 'discourteous' or offensive to others (and frankly, since I'm feeding a baby, I'm not so worried about offending others; I'm far more concerned about what kind of adults put their comfort ahead of that of an infant).

Second - I simply don't agree with your assumption that 'religious' people find breastfeeding offensive. I go to mass every week, I'm sure I could be categorized as having 'strict religious beliefs' by a lot of people. I've seen most of the women I've seen nursing, at MASS. Covered or not. Many of my 'most religious' friends nurse, and nursed into toddlerhood. And you may notice, I live in WY which is not exactly a bastion of liberal ideals .... So I just don't buy the "religious people are offended by breastfeeding argument." Maybe around you - but certainly not around me. And it's not like we have a stellar breastfeeding rate in WY either.

I really agree with the most recent poster. If we aren't about making every mother comfortable nursing however works for her and her child, we are undermining our overall cause. To assume that either end of the spectrum hurts our overall goal of more mothers feeling comfortable and supported in breastfeeding, and penalize accordingly through our thoughts, actions, or posts - defeats our goals.

For every mother/person who needs to know that nursing is possible with a cover/cape, there's another person who needs to know that nursing is possible with no 'props' at all. And another person who needs to know that if a mother's breast is showing even a little, that's OK, because she's just feeding her baby.

In the end, I hope that when my daughters are old enough to be breastfeeding their children, this discussion makes them roll their eyes, because they aren't able to fathom this level of pressure being exerted on women to keep their breasts solely as sex toys rather than recognizing that, like mouths, they are dual purpose body parts.

[Adsullata]

Originally Posted by elanorh

In the end, I hope that when my daughters are old enough to be breastfeeding their children, this discussion makes them roll their eyes, because they aren't able to fathom this level of pressure being exerted on women to keep their breasts solely as sex toys rather than recognizing that, like mouths, they are dual purpose body parts.

Here, here... I share this hope and quietly, fervently pray it comes to fruition.

[jocelynr]

If we aren't about making every mother comfortable nursing however works for her and her child, we are undermining our overall cause. To assume that either end of the spectrum hurts our overall goal of more mothers feeling comfortable and supported in breastfeeding, and penalize accordingly through our thoughts, actions, or posts - defeats our goals.

:

[KnitLady]

Originally Posted by elanorh

First, you continue to assume that women who aren't nursing like you nurse, are doing so intentionally to be 'in your face' and make a statement about breastfeeding. There are lots of dyads who just aren't able to nurse 'discreetly' (or as discreetly as you'd like). Moms of twins. Moms nursing a twiddling toddler. Babies (like mine) who would lift the cover and throw it aside if they were covered (and that's a lot more exposure than my 'lift the shirt' method gives out). Mothers who have larger busts. The list goes on. Apparently that entire group of women, regardless of whether they intended to be 'discourteous' in their nursing, ought to stay home so they don't damage the breastfeeding cause??

: I really suck at the ole lift the shirt method. My now toddler always hated it, my shirt was always in the way for me to help him get latched on, my shirt would keep falling down and covering his nose making it hard for him to breathe, and he hated having my shirt right there. As a matter of fact, even at 3.5 yrs old he hates the lift the shirt method.

I'm a dyed in the wool over the top of the shirt nurser. I can actually SEE what I need to see and my baby can breathe well. I really don't care how other people nurse, and I hope everyone nurses the way they are most comfortable. I'd like the same courtesy. Although as an experienced NIP'er, I could probably lift my shirt now, had I been required to do that as a first time mom, I don't think I could have. We had a very rough start with regards to breastfeeding, and that would have just been too much to add to the mix and I doubt I would have left the house. :

Please don't assume that my over the top of my shirt method means I'm trying to make any statement or be loud and proud (although I'm fine it that's what others do), I really, really am just trying to feed my baby.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Bookworm715

I love this last paragraph. But I just don't see how what your friend did helps the cause, if the cause is making BFing more accepted and mainstream. I'm sure she left you guys alone because she was horrified. I can't say that I would be unphased by a woman yanking up her shirt in what seems almost confrontational.

I go back to my previous example- say you're a parent with very strict religious beliefs and are sitting in the same waiting room. You wouldn't be a bit peeved at someone exposing their breast in front of your child? YOU might not see a breast as a big deal (frankly, I don't, but the majority of the population does, and many for religious reasons) but you can't respect that someone else might? I appreciate when people use courtesy around my children.

I've gotten warm smiles from elderly men who notice me nursing- you can tell that it brings a memory to them of their own wives nursing their babies. There's something so soft and nurturing and feminine about a nursing mother but the 'in your face' style of attempting to normalize it seems to take away from that so much.

The way my friend helped me, was in showing me that sometimes you get more harrassment when you're trying to be "discrete." I was wearing a huge, tent-like t-shirt, and my 2yo, who hadn't wanted to be covered with a blanket when she was younger, as a toddler just loved coming up under this shirt to nurse.

I thought it worked great for public breastfeeding, 'cause there wasn't even the minimal exposure that sometimes occured in the split-second after lifting my shirt before Baby latched on, or in the split second between her unlatching and me remembering to pull my shirt back down, LOL.

Wearing my "tent," absolutely no breast showed and dd just loved it when I'd play peekaboo by looking down through the top of the shirt.

Well, just prior to the office lady coming out to harrass me for nursing discretely, my friend later told me she had noticed the woman sitting on the other side of me getting up and moving to another seat as soon as I started breastfeeding.

Sometimes discrete just doesn't get any respect. It seemed like my discrete under-the-shirt method was "hurting the cause" (in the sense of making people feel they could bully me into leaving) just as much or more than my friend's method of just letting it all hang out.