How to handle it when your kid continues to do something you've asked them to stop doing?

[quelindo]

I feel like dealing with my son has been pretty easy until now. He turned four on Monday and it's like the testosterone has just ramped up. He's been hitting me when he's angry or frustrated and doing things that we have asked him to stop doing.

For instance, we have a gate at the top of our stairs that we just leave open all the time since he's four and it's not really needed. He was banging it against the wall and my DH asked him to stop. DS kept doing it and was obviously doing it just because he was asked to stop.

I hate to think in terms of "disobedience" and "defiance" but this is what it feels like. My dad was VERY controlling when I was a kid and he ALWAYS had to be right and in control. I don't want to be like that. But I also don't want to have a kid who is out of control.

I love Alfie Kohn so that's my guide for parenting, but I'm at a loss right now. Maybe I need to re-read UP. But if anyone can provide some guidance, I would be grateful.

[meemee]

typical typical - v. age appropriate. remember thru definance they are trying to figure out boundaries.

lower your expectations. they dont HAVE to listen to you EVERY single time. only when it truly matters. i remember doing the same even in my teens. isnt that what childhood is all about?

dotn worry. 4 is an age they hit a peak. suddenly at 4 1/2 a maturing change happens. then its back to tantrums again at 5 and or 6 and then stop.

the best way for me was to give my dd more autonomy. and instead of commands do choices. and help them and be there.

i want you to know that childhood is really hard these days on kids - without real playgrounds, without community and dealing with structure.

louise bates your 4 year old would be a good book for you.

i am a single parent. my ex is v. v. controling. by nature i am laid back. due to his parenting i am even more laid back to my almost 7 year old. she should have been more unruly as i never say no, but give her v. strict limits. but she isnt. she is extremely well behaved.

with the gate incident. instead of saying stop it or what ever words you used if you used an explanation that might help. my dd says my explanations helped her a lot to listen to me. something like when you bang that gate i am concerned that the plaster will come off the walls. so will you please stop doing it. if you would like to bang something here is <object>. you are free to bang that against <another object>. remmeber he is already beating that gate out of some frustration. so maybe ask him why he is hitting the gate. do a lot of role plays with pretending to figure out what is going on in his head.

[Wild Lupine]

My daughter is 2 1/2 and we deal with this daily. So I have a well-honed technique.

I'm going to skip over what I do on a bad day, as that would be of no help. But what I do on a GOOD day is:

First, I ask: Did you hear what I just said?

If it is clear she hasn't heard me (either by her saying no, or by not answering) I go to her, get down on her level, make sure she is looking at me and repeat my request. If I cannot get her to look at me and listen I assume something else is going on like hunger or tiredness and address that.

But, if I am satisfied she has heard me and she continues doing whatever it is, I state the obvious: I asked you to stop X and you are continuing to do X. Is there a problem?

The situation can go in many directions at this point depending upon what her response is, often she realizes I am serious and stops. Sometimes we get into a conversation, usually along the lines of her wanting attention, needing something else to do, needing a reason why she should stop X, wanting to do what she wants, etc... So then I address those needs. (I usually need to prompt her, I guess what might be going on for her and she agrees or disagrees.)

But if after all that she doesn't stop, I give her a choice: Do you want to stop on your own, or do you want me to remove you/object/change situation, etc..?

In situations related to safety I skip all that and just remove her, while explaining why I am doing so.

This sounds long, but in reality it takes a minute or two.

[mom2grrls]

If it were me and the gate is no longer needed, it would come down to avoid future problems

[denimtiger]

At four, he is still very young, and doesn't necessarily have the impulse control to not bang the gate. Banging the gate gives some nice sensory input, and feels interesting.

Remember, as much as possible, to give him something TO do, instead of something NOT to do.

One request - "if you need to bang something, please come over here and bang this ________" if he doesn't stop, he will need you to remove and redirect him.

I would (on a good day!!) wait until he is out of the sensory mode of the gate to explain to him why banging the gate is not such a great idea.

If the gate is absolutely no longer needed, I would also remove it, although I get that the gate is not the real issue you are talking about. He is very much testing boundaries, and (as backwards as it seems) kids really do thrive on having the boundaries there. It's just hard as parents to be absolutely firm and unbending about them.

A good analogy I once heard is that being a young child is sort of like if someone placed you on a chair in the middle of a vast, utterly dark room with strange noises and echoes. At first, you would cling to the chair, but eventually would want to spread out and start exploring... finding carefully where the floor began and ended, where the walls were... oops! there's a huge hole in the floor there! Boundaries, to children, are like the walls and the floor in that room. If they are consistently in one place and secure, then you eventually have the freedom and confidence to spread out and explore and get comfortable. If one time there's a floor, and the next time there's a gaping hole, you've got issues.

Kids just like to really jump up and down on the floor and slam into the walls to make sure they'll hold. Sometimes, they're not thrilled with the slamming process, and get upset by it, but in the end they feel a lot better if they know where the wall is and how not to get hurt by it.

[heartmama]

Yes I would make sure he heard me, ask if there was a problem with what I said (sincerely, not snarking at him) and then if he wouldn't discuss/engage, redirect him to something he could do.

I tend not to ask very much, and expect to be engaged when I talk to ds. Ignoring me isn't acceptable. Of course I can't force him to talk, but for the most part, I think it's reasonable to teach ds to engage a family member who speaks to him. I always made that a priority and he has really been good about engaging in sensible discussion since he was small.

Sometimes, even at age 4 and 5, kids like to regress and pretend they are not actually able to understand you--kind of a wishful thinking "Look, I'm a baby again!" thing. In that case I always treated him like a baby (picked him up and moved him to an acceptable or safer area), making it clear he was free to act like a baby but would be treated just like a baby as a result! Ds usually preferred to start talking and problem solve the situation with me instead.

[Bennifer]

I love the analogy about boundaries, but dh and I are having similar issues as the OP and I realize ds needs more clear boundaries, but am not sure how to provide that in the realm of UP. Here's an example of something I tried recently, but am unsure how I feel about it:
The other day, we had to leave a weekend trip early b/c I wasn't feeling well, and ds was angry. Very, very angry. He was looking forward to a boat ride with his uncle and a visit to an amusement park, and we were missing out on it b/c of me not feeling well. Dh is the one who broke the news. I want ds to feel he can express his feelings, talk about how angry he is, how dissapointed, and for us to acknowledge that...so that is what we did. But then he started calling dh "junky." As in, "Daddy is junky!!" over and over. I had major issues with that. Attacking someone's character and name-calling are not ok things, and so I told ds, very calmy but seriously, that I will not allow him to call daddy names, but that instead he could say, "daddy saying we had to leave is junky!" or "Leaving vacation is junky!" etc, etc. Well, he kept at it, "Daddy is junky!" over and over. After a few reminders and calm discussions, I finally said, "this is your warning. I will not allow name-calling in our family. You may say, " ____" If you choose to call names, I will need you to spend time in your room when you get home." He was mad, and decided to test it. "Daddy is junky!" I said, "Ok, 5 minutes in your room when you get home." He was not pleased. I reminded him that if I heard name calling again, I would add on 5 more minutes. I never heard another word about it. But thinking about it now, I never heard anything about it since. So, did I shut him down??? But I felt he did need the boundaries; he needed to know, too, that I wasn't going to let anyone call *him* names, kwim? I would never put up with that. And I felt like he was really searching for a limit. So, thoughts, anyone? I am not trying to hijack the OP's thread, just felt it was an example of another situation...what DO you do??? Because these situations arrive, when you try all that other UP stuff, and you let your child express himself...but where ARE the boundaries? I'd love examples of family rules, consequences, or whatever you do. Ds, btw, is 4 as well!!!

[quelindo]

Yeah, I'm really torn between making a "thing" of DS's poor behavior and just trying to set a good example, explain how I feel and letting it go. I feel like the second is more UP, but it's hard when you feel like your kid is being a raging brat.

My son has been hitting lately, too, and he'll hit me, run away and laugh, then come back to do it again. Hitting is SO not okay, but when I try to hold him still or even just talk to him it escalates. So I've been telling him that hitting is not cool, that it hurts me, that if he's upset he should talk to me instead of hitting -- and then I just try to get away.

Am I creating a little monster? Or is this just a developmental phase that he'll get through knowing that I'll always be there for him, no matter what?

[LianneM]

It is really, really hard, especially when our FEAR kicks in, imagining all the horrible things our kid is going to do later because we didn't make this stop.now.

My son is 4.5 (today, actually) and I can tell you that it IS getting better - much better than 6 months ago even. He still tests his boundaries, no doubt, but he has turned a corner on cooperation and a true desire to be helpful and work things out. It's really noticeable and he is so much more enjoyable.

I certainly haven't handled every situation perfectly, but the advice above is good. It's parenting for the long-term, not the short-term. It's hard. It's hard to let things go when you really just feel angry and want to make sure your kid really feels that. But that isn't helpful in the long term, nor the short term really. It just makes all of us feel bad.

I agree with removing the gate if it isn't needed, or in that moment just removing the child and going to do something together. I find one of my weaknesses is that I want to just TELL HIM to stop something and have him listen, which isn't very effective. But if I stop what I'm doing and go to him, and take him to another room to engage him in something, it's guaranteed to stop AND we connect, which is better for both of us in the long run.

[Llyra]

I have to preface by saying I'm no Alfie Kohn fan. So take what I say with that in mind. We're not a yelling, spanking, or punishing household, but we are maybe a bit more authoritative than some folks around MDC.

When you've come from a family where you felt controlled and dominated, it's often difficult to negotiate situations like this. You don't want to be controlling and authoritarian, and it's hard to know where the line is between reasonable limits and being overly dominating. I can see how that is hard, if you weren't raised gently.

I do think, however, that it's reasonable to expect anybody, child or otherwise, to cease an annoying behavior, if you've asked them to. If you were at an adult friend's house, and they asked you, courteously and kindly, to to stay out of a certain area of the yard because grass seed has just been planted, you'd do it, right? There's a solid reason for what's being asked, the request has been made kindly, and to persist in walking on the newly planted grass would be obnoxious, right? Why is it any different for a child?

The one thing I wouldn't do, I think, is to tell him to stop, and then if he didn't stop, let him keep doing it. I've seen lots of parents do that, where they tell the kid not to do something, and the kid ignores them, and then they mutter, "he never listens to me," and then they just sit there and fume while the child continues the annoying behavior. I think that does two things:

1. It teaches the child that your words carry no importance, and that you can safely be ignored. Too much of this, and you'll find your child not heeding your genuine warnings, because he's learned by experience that your words are empty and not backed by action.

2. It causes frustration to build inside of you, which erodes your patience, leads to resentment, and often comes bursting out later in the form of yelling.

My approach is to carefully choose my "battles." I don't often give a direct instruction. I save that for the things I think are important. But once I do give a direct instruction, I say it once, wait a moment or two, and if the child ignores me, I take some kind of action. I'll lift the child out of the situation, and show him something else he can do. Or I'll remove the object (in this case, the gate). I don't punish; I won't take away a toy, or send the child into isolation, or anything like that. I just physically cause the annoying behavior to stop, either by moving the child or moving the object in question. If the child protest being moved, as crying or whatever, I'll offer honest sympathy, and stick to my decision. If the child immediately returns to the behavior, I'll repeat redirecting as many times as necessary, or possibly block access to whatever he's doing, or remove him to another room or another area of the yard.

[mamazee]

If he doesn't have a choice, don't ask at all. Tell. And if he can't stop, simply make what you need to happen happen, without a lot of emotion or any punishment or consequences. If that means taking the gate off for some period of time, or closing it for now, or whatever, so be it. But if you actually ask, then "no" is a fair response.

UP is about not using punishment, rewards, consequence, or any behaviorist-based methods of discipline, but it doesn't mean letting things happen that will cause damage to your house, either. I am always open to dd giving me alternatives. ("You like to slam this, but I can't let this hit the wall because it could hurt the wall. Do you have any ideas as to how we can fix this problem, or should I just close the gate for now?") And I'm careful to really consider if something is ACTUALLY a problem or if it is just something I don't want to happen because, say, my parents would have freaked out if I would have done it. I find that's an issue a lot of the time - that I get upset and don't want something done but really, when I think about it, it isn't a big deal and I should just let it go. Also, I always assume the best intentions for my children. Like, I'd know my dd didn't want to hurt the wall and that she just wanted to see what would happen, or make a cool noise, or play with something that moved like that, and I'd ask her what she liked about it and see if we could fulfill that in a different way.

[Wild Lupine]

I'm really appreciating this thread and all the different approaches and strategies people use.

I've just remembered a phrase I use often: "Let me help you." As in "Banging the gate is damaging the wall. Let me help you stop." And follow it up with gently removing the gate or leading the child away by the hand.