please tell me exactly what to do/say. i am at a total loss. nothing has worked.

[jackson'smama]

i have an almost 4.75 year old ds and a just-turned-2 ds. the violence, anger, etc...have pushed me to my wit's end. my 4.75 yo will not allow my 2yo a moment's peace. i am at point of feeling sorry for the youngest b/c he never had the luxury of living a life free of somebody doing something aggressive to him every.single.day. all.the.time. granted, they can play together SOMETIMES. and they will defend one another outside the home (my mom reprimanded oldest for hurting youngest and youngest tried to hit grandma with a badminton racket for trying to make oldest sit in a timeout?!?!)
i am SO SICK of the hitting, smacking, kicking, poking, pushing, shoving, driving into (on toy cars), etc....i cannot take much more.
dh is yelling ALL THE TIME now it seems and i know he's swatted oldest's butt at least twice. i'm like "you cannot exhibit violence yourself and expect more of your son than you expect of yourself". i just think it's total frustration b/c i'm feeling that desire myself and i hate that.
besides the violence, ds has become bossy, whiny, tantrumy, etc...always says "you need to follow MY rules" and things like that. refuses to pick up toys - actually said "i don't care what you say" to me yesterday when i asked him to pick up toys and offered to help.
he's greedy (always wants a new toy, steals food off other's plates, etc...).

i swear, i'm raising the child i said that I'D never have. i want to be a better mother and figure out what to do here, but i am clueless. please help.

[Porcelain Interior]

He sounds jealous. Perhaps he feels replaced by little brother?

My kids don't get along at all, they are girls and 6 years apart. We don't have any violence, but the oldest thinks the youngest ruined her life by being born.

I'm not sure why, it's more of a personality type. She swears she was meant to be an only child.

My only advice is to try and spend copious amounts of one on one time as much as you can with your oldest and try to rebond so you have some things that are just between the two of you.

Maybe pick a part of the day and create a special ritual for just the two of you?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

What kinds of things have you tried?

Have you tried time-outs?

Since he loves new toys, what about a positive token system or sticker chart (e.g. every half hour he goes without aggression towards the younger one earns a token/sticker, and at the end of the day he can "buy" a toy based on the amount earned - since the behavior is so frequent, the reward needs to be frequent as well).

If you feel its attention-seeking, you could try ignoring his behavior and lavishing his victim with attention and cuddles. Only if you think its to get your attention or to prevent the sibling from interaction with you.

I don't know that there is much to say to him, except short and sweet, "No hitting" and immediate removal or consequence, since he probably already knows what he's doing wrong.

Most of that other stuff (what you call "greedy," bossiness, talking back) is pretty typical for the age. Not that it shouldn't be addressed, but it sounds like the priority is aggression towards his sibling, so maybe some of that other stuff you could either ignore, block, or simply ask for rephrasing.

The PP's advice for one-on-one time and rebonding time seems critical, too.

[Chiroalltheway]

DS1 just turned 4 this week, and DS2 is 2. I HEAR you on the violence, sibling rivalry, etc.!! I actually laughed when I read your post. (NO OFFENSE, seriously!!!) I think yours is a little worse than it is here, but I think the age of your oldest probably has something to do with it. I don't know about that age yet, b/c we haven't been there, but as far as the violence among the boys thing goes, here's what I think and what we do. I think boys are just like that (yes, I do think it is influenced by many, many things BECAUSE they are boys, and are treated differently by their parents, etc. etc. etc. but that's another post) Anyway, I think they need to have opportunities to express their violence/anger/energy/whatever it is or whatever you want to call it. I think they need a lot of time outside, make sure they're getting plenty of sunlight, sweating to detox, climbing on things outside, etc.

Personally, since DS1 is the oldest and is very aware of when he is angry and can vocalize that, we tell him that it's okay to be angry, but he needs to go deal with it away from the person he is angry with if he cannot simply use his words in that moment. "Are you mad? Why don't you go to your room and I'll come talk to you when you're ready." Then, I help him verbalize what he was angry about, tell him alternative ways of dealing with it (if he was hitting or something like that.) We talk a lot about doing to others as he would have them do unto him. He gets that now. (understands it) We do let DS1 stomp down the hall and slam the door if he is angry. Some might not agree with that, but at his age, I feel like he just needs another outlet for his anger, since he doesn't have all of the words yet. He has started doing that less and less now that his vocabulary/understanding is growing.

I try my DARNDEST to be a good example when I am mad. "Mommy is so frustrated right now, and I need my space so I can calm down!" I will even go to my room and close the door (quietly) DS1 has started giving himself time-outs, which is funny b/c we don't even use that phrase with him. (We have always said, "Why don't you go to your room ....")

Anyway, I guess my summary of advice would just be to be obvious about your own dealings with anger issues to set a good example, give DS1 plenty of opportunities to vent and to deal with that extra energy before it builds up, give DS2 plenty of alone time (even if he has "room time," which is what we do with our DS2, and he LOVES it), and do a lot of talking after the incidents once DS1 has calmed down.

Does that help??????????

[ChickyMama]

My first thought is that their needs to be an immediate consequence for unacceptable behavior. In real life, if you hit, kick, hurt someone, at the very least that person doesn't hang around you anymore. I would try to reason with the oldest and discuss on a regular basis, how important it is to love each other and treat each other with love and respect. If he is going to treat his younger brother that way, he will one, have to be removed from the situation and possibly lose some sort of privilege and same thing for the younger child if he is misbehaving. Try to relate it to real life situations. When my 4 yo daughter screams and yells or hits me when she doesn't get what she wants, I ask her what would people do if I acted that way in the grocery store to the checkout lady or at the bank etc. Sometimes this helps her to realize how ridiculous she is acting. I really try to teach my daughter that she can make herself happy by doing things that will make others happy. Such as sharing with her little brother because then he will learn to share with her also or playing with him nicely so she doesn't have to play alone, or not fighting so Mommy is happy and wants to do fun things like go to the park or zoo because she knows it will be a good time since her children are behaving etc. Sometimes it sinks in sometimes not but eventually it will stick especially after seeing results. And if the older one can get it the younger one will usually follow suit.

My second thought is that especially boys have a lot of physical tension they need to release. Maybe your son needs to tunnel his aggression in a healthy way such as wrestling with dad, a sport like soccer or martial arts, a nice big punching bag, something so that your younger one isn't the brunt of it all the time.

Hope that helps! (=

~Diana

[janasmama]

I agree that the greediness and wanting is typical. I have a 4.75 daughter and she constantly wants stuff. In the effort to help her desire to be a small consumer I have began to educate her about marketing and how toys get made. I don't know if marketing to children is something that you are familiar with but it's a great time to educate our kids about it. My DD has taken the information fairly well and when I have a reason besides "no" she can usually handle not getting something.

I've also started asking my DD to stop insisting on her own way. Another tool in the toolbox is the ability to negotiate. I tell my daughter that I am willing to negotiate under certain conditons but I need to know that she will listen to me first and do what I ask.

I also have a 2.5 year old and they are constnatly fighting. I'm sure it's not as intense as 2 boys but none the less I do know where you are coming from. It will get better. Sometimes I send mine out into our safe backyard and take a break for a few minutes.

[Adasmommy]

I'll throw my thoughts into the mix.

It gets really hard to get out of these cycles of them being bad, us being mad. I really think the best way to do it is to try to take away the bad and mad as much as possible (hard, I know).

Really validate him when he is "being good." Talk about what a good brother he is when he's acting like a good brother. Refer to him as a good kid, nice kid, friendly, etc and act as if you expect it.

When the unacceptable behavior happens, put a stop to it and initiate another activity as quickly as possible, but don't put heavy emphasis on how "bad" it was. Try to be non judgmental when you explain the very obvious "no hitting."

When you give him his good-morning kiss, say, "Let's have a really fun day together and remember to be nice to each other."

You have to break the cycle with love and pleasantness all around. Make it easy for him to be nice without having to accept that he was wrong for being mean. Anyway, that's what I think. And I hope it helps.

Best of luck!

[janasmama]

^ This is great information too. It's true. The less I focus on them being bad, the more fun we have and the better mood everyone is in. We know that we have to set boundaries but we don't have to criminalize everything. Just pick the few major things that need more immediate attention and work on those.

I bet if you can feel like your older one is at least responding to you then everything will fall into place.

[mom2grrls]

Although sibling rivalry and some hitting, etc is normal when I think my kids are speaking meanly, being bossy, etc I take a look at myself first. Am I being too bossy, judgmental, mean, etc. Just from your 4 y/o saying what he did about "his rules" makes me think he may feel to bossed around.
As for being greedy that's normal too, my son wants whatever his sisters get(esp the oldest) and will pass as he gets older and becomes more open to others(rather than just concentrating on himself).
Try to get more connected again with your older son before you start worrying about him helping you clean it sounds like there may be a disconnect there. Plan an outing for dh, you and him(if you have a babysitter) or perhaps something at home in the evening after the 2 y/o goes to bed. If you haven't read it i'd suggest Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen or Siblings Without Rivalry.

[jewelsJZ]

Wow, these are my kids! This is exactly where we were a year ago. Not that we are without problems now, but they are different problems. Here's what worked for us to curb the violence. We did a reward based system. I set the timer, at first for 15 minutes, then after some successful days, we stretched it out to 30 mins., then 60 mins., then 4 times per day (breakfast, lunch, dinner, bedtime). Each time the timer went off, each child who had been KIND, got a ticket. They put the tickets into their own bowl. When they got X number of tickets, they got to pick a reward from Mommy's prize box. I put little things in there that we already owned but they had forgotten about, but it was a hit. Little party favors from b-day parties they'd gone to, sheets of stickers, a few pieces of candy, certificates to stay up 30 mins. past bedtime. They loved the prizes. If we were out, I carried tickets in my pocket and did my best to give them to them every few minutes. If they were violent during the allotted time, we said, "I see you hitting your brother. We don't hit. I know you can do better next time." Then we let the timer run out.
Also, we put up signs around the house that said "Be Kind". They can't read, but they asked what the signs said, and we often pointed to the signs and read them out loud when we were reminding them to be nice to each other. Pretty soon, they were pointing at the signs and telling each other this, instead of retaliating.
My almost 5 year old was also doing a lot of back talking and we just ignored him when he talked like that. If he wanted something, we said, "I asked you to pick up your toys. Please do that now and then I will get you a snack/take you outside/build lego towers with you/etc." The talking back is the verbal version of the physical aggression, kwim?
I also agree with the pp's about spending time with him 1:1. That worked for our oldest. There was lots of jealousy about having a younger sister.
Best of luck, it's not easy. it's like living in a war zone sometimes, i know. but it can get better. peace can be restored.

[jackson'smama]

thanks for all the replies and advice.
for those who asked, we've tried ignoring what can be ignored, verbalizing for him ("it sounds/looks like you're frustrated/angry") - and offering ideas for verbalizing and physically expressing those emotions in appropriate ways, spending one on one time with each child, monitoring diet/activity/sleep to ensure those weren't contributing factors, physically separating when necessary, and unfortunately yelling and time-out when we get so frustrated because nothing seems to work.
i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to). i'm not being snarky here - it just seems that whenever i've read anything about discipline that involves something other than just redirecting, reasoning, and talking that it is somehow damaging and it's put me in a position of worrying that everything i do is a potentially detrimental thing for my children. so if you use rewards to combat violence, for example, how did you decide on this method?

[LilyGrace]

This is a little less GD than most on here, but sometimes, I think kids just need it spelled out for them as simply as possible. I have no problems telling a child who's hitting/being mean, This is not okay. It will not be tolerated. You need to leave the room and come back when you are not dangerous. And then walking them out of the room, shutting the door between us. Or, taking the other child and walking away to go to a room with a door.

It seems to snap them back into reality when they're not looking for empathy or trying to express how they feel, but instead feeling glee or pride when hurting another. By 5, the difference is usually apparent because this is one of the bossy stages.

We don't use rewards, but I do put an emphasis on meaning exactly what I say. When I need a direction followed I won't say please or 'can you/will you/do this for mama'. It's cut and dry: this needs to happen, I will ensure it happens, and you're doing it because it needs to be done.

[jewelsJZ]

We used rewards in this case because we tried everything else (redirecting, distracting, talking about it, modeling the behavior we wanted, playing it out with their stuffed animals) and still my children were hurting each other and my dh and I were getting so frustrated, we were yelling at them. After a couple of weeks with the reward system, they were no longer hurting each other and it has rarely been an issue since then. The way I see it, we could've continued to be frustrated and have them hurt each other, or we could try something else.
I think they had fallen into the habit of hitting/pushing/kicking whenever they didn't like something the other one had done. The reward system got them into the habit of being kinder to each other. It worked for us. It was the right thing for our family at that time.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to).

Its not ideal, for reasons you expressed. It does tend to lead to doing things for extrinsic rather than intrinsic reasons.

BUT if you are going to use negative consequences (time-out, yelling, physically separating, showing disapproval), which also doesn't result in intrinsic motivation, why not use positive ones instead/as well? They are two sides of the same coin, but the positive approach doesn't have as many negative side effects (anger, disruption of the attachment, sneakiness, increased resentment of the other child).

In addition, many behaviors start out extrinsically reinforcing and later become intrinsically reinforcing. For example, using extrinsic reinforcement to learn the sounds letters make will lead to reading, which is (often) intrinsically reinforcing. Children don't usually sound out letters for fun but they will read stories for fun. Learning to interact well with others probably falls easily into this category. At first you do it because you get a reward; later the ability to have friends and play well with others becomes intrinsically reinforcing.

[jackson'smama]

jewelsJZ - thank you for telling me how you came to that decision. i feel like i'm in the same boat of having tried EVERYTHING under the sun - or at least it feels that way. i actually told my mom today that rather than parent them today, i would have wholeheartedly preferred laboring and birthing the two of them simulataneously. all day. i even got slapped in the face today. i actually cried.
separating has been tried. i've tried putting one in one room and one in another and it ramps it up. take this morning for example, youngest was playing harmonica in the kitchen. oldest didn't want to hear it and rather than leave the room, he tried to clobber youngest. no amount of redirecting, discussing, or removing worked. we finally just left the house so that i could put them in carseats in separate areas of the car.
i think the reward system is definitely worth a try. i just hope it's not something that results in him saying "but i don't want THAT" when he gets whatever reward i decide on. and then we end up battling over the rewards.
thanks again for all the replies.

[jackson'smama]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

Its not ideal, for reasons you expressed. It does tend to lead to doing things for extrinsic rather than intrinsic reasons.

BUT if you are going to use negative consequences (time-out, yelling, physically separating, showing disapproval), which also doesn't result in intrinsic motivation, why not use positive ones instead/as well? They are two sides of the same coin, but the positive approach doesn't have as many negative side effects (anger, disruption of the attachment, sneakiness, increased resentment of the other child).

In addition, many behaviors start out extrinsically reinforcing and later become intrinsically reinforcing. For example, using extrinsic reinforcement to learn the sounds letters make will lead to reading, which is (often) intrinsically reinforcing. Children don't usually sound out letters for fun but they will read stories for fun. Learning to interact well with others probably falls easily into this category. At first you do it because you get a reward; later the ability to have friends and play well with others becomes intrinsically reinforcing.

thank you for stating what should have been obvious to me!

[Surfacing]

About the hitting etc, it reminds me of a section in Sibling Rivalry in which the author suggests we point out to each child what the other loves and worships about them. Sometimes the hitting and anger is a result of loving the other sibling and feeling hurt/put down by something. Often it's just a misunderstanding. Maybe there's a way they long to connect with each other (evidenced by always wanting to be in the same room) but not knowing how. Just a thought and $0.02.

And about the bossiness -- sometimes when dd1 is using a very bossy tone or saying something rude, I will pause calmly and then say, "Let's try that again." Then I sometimes stay quiet. Or sometimes say her phrase again the way I would really like her to say it, but with over-the-top frilly manners, kind of mockingly saintly with pantomime and everything. She gets the picture and complies. Worth a try, perhaps? Take it or leave it.

It's hard to live with the constant fighting.

[momma_unlimited]

Is hypnosis GD? Haha. When my two boys fight I think to myself... they really do love each other... so why would it hurt to implant them with subconscious suggestions to be kind to each other? Although I hear it doesn't work too well on kids under 3.

[jackson'smama]

what a day!...

ok, dh talked to oldest ds before me and youngest got up yesterday and they discussed a reward system. ds's idea was to use actual money . we tried the 15 minute timer idea and it was blown within a minute. then we tried to give him a bank of 10 dimes and told him he could earn a dime by being kind but a dime would be taken away if he was unkind. by noon, he was 10 cents in the hole (it had fluctuated all morning between earning and losing). then after lunch, he earned a some back and should have had 2 but "couldn't find them". he didn't care. i just gave up and we left the house to go swimming at mom's. after that, we had dinner and while i was preparing, i asked if he'd pick up some toys. he had dumped out
1) whole box of lincoln logs
2) whole box of blocks
3) whole box of matchbox cars
4) whole box of "random junk" toys like happy meal/dollar store type trinkety things
5) whole can of "junk" which is small road signs, spare tires, little construction workers, etc...a coffee can full

plus he had his lionel train set up on the dining room table and a race track with a box full of my old matchbox cars in my bedroom floor.

we had stuff everywhere and he refused to pick up - even with my offer of help. "i don't want to. i'm not doing it."

in a very matter of fact voice, i said that whatever i picked up would be put away until i determined he was responsible enough to have it back out (he has too much stuff in the playroom right now anyway, so i know that he's probably overwhelmed). but i was just floored by his attitude. i just feel fed up right now. so it all went to the attic.

how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!

[GuildJenn]

Has he had one-on-one time with both you and your husband?

It kind of seems to me that by rejecting the rewards he's communicating something deeper here.