please tell me exactly what to do/say. i am at a total loss. nothing has worked. - Page 2

[Surfacing]

It also strikes me that any new approach to parenting will take some time to take hold. When we change something in how we interact with our child (or partner or whomever) the initial reaction from them is CHANGE BACK! It uncomfortable to change so they want to go back to the familiar pattern. We have to holdfast until it becomes the new norm.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

we tried the 15 minute timer idea and it was blown within a minute. then we tried to give him a bank of 10 dimes and told him he could earn a dime by being kind but a dime would be taken away if he was unkind. by noon, he was 10 cents in the hole (it had fluctuated all morning between earning and losing). then after lunch, he earned a some back and should have had 2 but "couldn't find them". he didn't care. i just gave up and we left the house to go swimming at mom's.

It sounds to me like part of the problem here was that the criteria for earning dimes was vague. "kind" and "unkind" are not very specific. I think if you get more specific about what behavior you expect, you'll be more successful. What are you looking for in terms of "being kind?" No hitting? Gentle touches? Using words instead of hitting? Using a regular voice instead of yelling? If you're addressing yelling and hitting, are you rewarding him separately for not yelling and for not hitting?

Also, I would consider, at least at first, sticking only to giving him dimes for positive behavior and *not* taking away dimes at all for inappropriate behavior. Our reward system used points, and we only ever gave her points, we never took points away at any point. I think there is no need to take away points (or dimes), and that in fact doing so can impede progress by increasing frustration. This is only my personal opinion, and how we approached a reward system with our child, but these are my reasons for saying this: 1)It's very helpful to remain as positive as possible when addressing problematic behavior. The more you focus on his positive behavior, the more successful he feels, the better. 2) It's quite likely that at his age, a good chunk of the reason he's engaging in these behaviors is that he lacks the skills to consistently handle his frustration in other ways. So taking away those dimes is frustrating, and runs the risk of adding to the problems. I really think that in general, kids do well if they *can* (as opposed to "when they want to"). I think that when there's a chronic problem, it's not helpful to assume that they just aren't motivated to do better, but rather it's helpful to assume that something is getting in the way of their doing better.


(FWIW, what we did do when our dd engaged in the problematic behavior was have her sit-typically in the same room as us-until she was calm and able/ready to be safe. Then we could talk about what happened, and different ways she might have handled it. "you hit, you sit.")

Also, I found it helpful to address the one or two most problematic behaviors to begin with, rather than addressing all sorts of things all at once.

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!

IME, any change in approach is going to take up to several weeks before you start to really see change. These things take time. However, I also think that any reward system has to be just a part of a larger approach.

I think one very good place to start is by making time to have "special time" with him every day (or as close to every day as you can manage) for only 15-20 minutes. This is one-on-one time with one parent. No sibling interruptions, no answering the phone. Let him lead the play. All your verbal interaction with him should be positive (if his behavior becomes problematic, simply say, neutrally, "it's time to be done. Remember we'll have special time again tomorrow"). This should be a positive, enjoyable time for both of you. The whole point of this is to nurture your relationship with him, to nurture trust. This will really help wrt addressing his behavioral issues. The more connected to you he feels, the more positive your relationship, the more he trusts you, the easier it will be to address his behavior. IME, it's so easy to get caught up in a negative spiral when behavior is difficult, and that just makes everything harder.

Also, take some time to really observe him and think about why he's doing what he's doing. What does he need in order to do better? What skills does he need to learn or improve upon? Here's a couple of links to help you consider that:
http://www.thinkkids.org/parents/lagging.aspx

http://www.thinkkids.org/core/pathways.aspx

A couple of great books that I've found helpful are The Explosive Child by Ross Greene (which is just such a great resource when it comes to understanding and dealing with difficult behavior, and which I've absolutely found to be helpful even in parenting my kids whom I wouldn't call "explosive"), and Raising A Thinking Child by Myrna Shure (about helping kids learn the thinking, problem-solving, communication and emotional skills required to resolve conflicts in healthy ways).

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

thanks for all the replies and advice.
for those who asked, we've tried ignoring what can be ignored, verbalizing for him ("it sounds/looks like you're frustrated/angry") - and offering ideas for verbalizing and physically expressing those emotions in appropriate ways, spending one on one time with each child, monitoring diet/activity/sleep to ensure those weren't contributing factors, physically separating when necessary, and unfortunately yelling and time-out when we get so frustrated because nothing seems to work.
i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to). i'm not being snarky here - it just seems that whenever i've read anything about discipline that involves something other than just redirecting, reasoning, and talking that it is somehow damaging and it's put me in a position of worrying that everything i do is a potentially detrimental thing for my children. so if you use rewards to combat violence, for example, how did you decide on this method?

Jackson'smama,

I absolutely hear every word you typed here.

My kids (4 and 6) are about to be siblings to yet another (in December) and I am keenly aware that i am on a bit of a timeline to try and tackle the violence, yelling and namecalling that goes on before I have another variable in the mix. It has pushed me to really try everything. I do a lot of what you just typed, and it has had very mixed results.

The KEY for us, truly, has been how we start our day. Seriously. My attitude, my demeanor, the way I either rush around (not good) or actually sit with them and chat (much better) makes a very big difference. I also try to "catch them" in the acts of doing things in apositive way together. For example, this morning, while DH was getting ready for work, I was sort of running around getting our house ready for 5 friends to visit the kids (hectic and stressfull). BUT, I caught hte kids sitting on hteir floor finshing a Thomas puzzle TOGETHER. I could not pass up the chance to go in and hug them and tell them how nice it is to be able to watch them havign such fun together being a team. They LOVE those comments. They eat it up!

I know it is hard, and some days you just lose sight rather quickly of what you are hoping to have happen, fall into the frustrated, angry mode of mama-ing, and just throw your hands up. I know. I do it every other day, it seems!

Today, I am actually writing myself notes and leavig them throughout the house to remind myself of the outcome I'd love to have, rather than the outcome I worry about. Things like, "Catch'em being good to one another!" and "Take a breath before you react" really help.

Again, I know all too well how hard it is, believe me, I can really relate to everything you have said here. I do not do any kind of rewards other than just showing them love and telling them I am proud, etc.

Rewards are VERY extrinsic, and you are right to be concerned. I have known kids whom will only do somehting, like be nice, clean up, or say please if there is some benefit to them. It makes me cringe. I hear ya on that one, too.

s to you, and remember to take little moments for yourself to regroup in the locked bathroom, do breathing exercises, remind yourslef how littel they are, how they are growing their little minds, emotions and personalities everyday at an alarming rate, adn that your actions and attitude can really make the difference.

Thinking of you!!

[Magella]

I just wanted to add this thought about rewards. I was very opposed to a reward system as well, for a long time. My reservations about reward systems included concerns about extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, as well as concerns regarding effectiveness and frustration given that I really think kids already want to do well (and if they aren't doing well, it's because they can't, they're struggling). We came to using one after struggling with some very serious behaviors for a long time. We actually had decided to work with a psychologist to address our child's behaviors, and this was one of her suggestions. I agreed because dh was just absolutely at his wits' end (well, we both were), and I thought why not, we've tried it all. As I mentioned before, we drew the line at taking away points for negative behavior, asking the therapist to instead help us help our child learn the skills she needed to do better.

My thoughts on the reward system that we used are that there have been no negative effects. I don't think that the reward system, in itself, is responsible for the changes in our dd's behavior. I think that it did do some positive things for her and for us, which did help her and us as we worked on changing her behavior. It placed the focus on the positive, which was very important. It gave dd some tangible, positive reinforcement for all the had work she was doing to learn to manage her own behavior, and this helped her feel better about herself. She never became dependent on the rewards for good behavior.

I really think the problems with reward systems are not inherent in the reward systems themselves, but in how they're commonly (over-)used.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

so it all went to the attic.

It did sound like he might have access to a bit too much stuff considering his ability to make a mess.

I think your idea is a good one - if he isn't able to take care of his toys, they go away for a while. I just want to caution you about a few things.

First, change can take a while. Take a deep breath and be patient. Consistently implement the plan you have chosen and don't expect immediate results. Now that you have a plan for taking care of toys, instead of removing the whole lot when you reach frustration level, you can (ask him, help him, remind him) after each activity to clean up, and if he is unwilling, calmly remind him that you will put the toys away for him, but you will need to put them away where they won't cause trouble for a long time.

Second, I strongly suggest you just focus on the problematic behaviors right now, which sound like aggression towards his sibling. Just choose one big thing to work on to start. Its going to be way too much to try to focus on everything at once. When the problem behaviors get under better control, you can start adding some other things to work on.

But it really does sound like he might have access to too many toys right now.

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!

He won't care about getting a reward until he gets a reward. The coins aren't rewards yet, they are just things. They don't become valuable until they are shown, a few times, to have value through the purchase of something desireable.

For a child that young, I would choose stickers on a sticker chart that is displayed where its easily seen and reached. I wouldn't use coins or tokens or anything he can lose. He won't be able to keep them together until its time to spend them. So you need a system where you keep track of them for him, and he can see his progress. Make sense?

In the beginning, until he gets the idea, you might do a reward exchange every hour or every few hours. Make the reward (the thing he "purchases," not the tokens) closer to the appropriate behavior in time and then slowly increase the time until its once a day.

Identify very specifically what behaviors he can earn tokens (stickers, points, whatever) for. Write them down where everyone can see even if its only you and DH who can read. For example, some things he can earn a token for might be:

1. Asking for something using his kind words.
2. Doing something you have asked within 3 minutes.
3. Playing for 15 minutes with his brother without yelling, hurting his brother, or throwing things at his brother.

There are two kinds of behavior you can give tokens for. One is the absence of problematic behavior (aggression). The other is when he displays appropriate behavior. Its easier to remember to give a token (stickers) for the absence of problematic behavior because it takes less work and attention. Its harder to give tokens for each occurance of the appropriate behavior because it means you have to be paying attention and catch him doing well.

But its way more effective and will mean more to him when you catch him doing something good.

Its less effective to simply reinforce the absense of problematic behavior, but easier for the parent to do.

Finding a combination of these will be most effective and easiest on you. Shift your mindset so that instead of being on alert for what he does wrong, you're focused on finding what he does good, and ready to appreciate it verbally, and have him put a sticker on his chart.

I also strongly suggest not removing stickers/tokens for problematic behavior. He doesn't even value the stickers yet, so removing them has no effect and must seem arbitrary and cruel. Make the token portion of the plan purely positive. Use timeout or delayed gratification or ignoring (whatever response you choose for each problematic behavior) but don't tie the punishment to the positive program.

[jackson'smama]

thank you all! ok, i felt like crap for taking away the dimes but i was like DON'T YOU GET IT? YOU LOSE BY HITTING YOUR BROTHER! i didn't say this, i was thinking it and i guess i am just expecting adult thoughts from a 4yo. duh!

we laid out "kind" and "unkind" and we've been using those words and describing them and modeling for awhile, so he knows what we're talking about.

we chose money because we had the discussion with him and money was his choice (over tokens to earn something or stickers).

i definitely caught him being "kind" and rewarded it...holding a door for me, taking a toy to his brother to occupy him because he was about to set up his train for himself.

the one-on-one thing is very hard. like today, i had the kids alone all morning (dh worked late and slept in, then went to the dentist), then i was out all afternoon. neither nap and they both go to bed at the same time. i think i had about 5 minutes with oldest before youngest got up this morning. it's gonna be hard to carve this out with our schedule but DEFINITELY something we want to work harder at. problem is, he balks at it when we've tried. we try to get grandma to take youngest so that he can have time with just mommy or daddy or have both of us all to himself and he's like "but i want brother here too". HUH? the kid you just punched in the ear? are you serious?

yes, i agree that the aggression is the primary issue, but it really seems to be an overall change in him (i'm attributing it to some testosterone surge or something) - where he's just gone bonkers wanting to wrestle, have his way, beat up his brother, and leave a mess wherever he goes. it's hard to just want to work on one thing. i'm not good at that - i need to work on it.

i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.

[jewelsJZ]

jacksonsmama, you can break the time down to as few minutes as you need to with the timer. if they can only go one minute, set it for a minute, then slowly increase the time as they have more success.
i think going with the dimes was good, if he suggested it, it may be the thing that motivates him. have him put them in a jar on the counter so they aren't lost.
we tried to phrase the behaviors we wanted to see, instead of saying "you get X for not hitting your sister" we said, "you get X for being kind to people".
And I totally know what you mean about getting out of the house just so you can get them into their carseats and unable to physically fight with each other. BTDT!

[54321]

I just wanted to log on and say hi and offer support.

I haven't been to the boards in a long time and I look forward to getting involved again.

I identify with a lot. Thanks!!

Lisa

[Surfacing]

Originally Posted by Magella

My thoughts on the reward system that we used are that there have been no negative effects. I don't think that the reward system, in itself, is responsible for the changes in our dd's behavior. I think that it did do some positive things for her and for us, which did help her and us as we worked on changing her behavior. It placed the focus on the positive, which was very important. It gave dd some tangible, positive reinforcement for all the had work she was doing to learn to manage her own behavior, and this helped her feel better about herself. She never became dependent on the rewards for good behavior.

I really think the problems with reward systems are not inherent in the reward systems themselves, but in how they're commonly (over-)used.

[VroomieMama]

This thread was a good read.

[Oh the Irony]

I highly, highly suggest you read Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.

It has been wonderful for us so far! It is very much focused on the positive.

He talks about how intense kids are energized by seeing the adults react to situations so not reacting in a strong fashion helps. Observing them and commenting in a neutral fashion on things they are doing, and yes, a point system. And then short time-outs when rules are broken.

It is helping me create very clear rules and very clear expectations of good behavior. I'm so not rule and structure oriented it really helped me to have a system. He gets points for everything and then can spend them on privileges. You encourage success by being generous with the points and not taking any away.

And hey, it wouldn't be MDC without someone bringing up diet. Look at www.feingold.org and see if he matches any of their checklists. My little one was eating all kinds of salicyates (sp?). We're on day 4 and he seems mellower and more in control of himself.

And big hugs to you--it can be very challenging. Some kids really are just more intense and require more than others in terms of parenting.

eta: and the physical exercise!

[Magella]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

we laid out "kind" and "unkind" and we've been using those words and describing them and modeling for awhile, so he knows what we're talking about.

I get what you're saying here, and I wanted to clarify by what I meant when I said it sounded "vague." We have also always talked about what it means to be kind and unkind-what kinds of things are kind and why. However, we learned that even at ages older than 4, when it comes to using a reward system (and even addressing difficult behavior without a reward system), it helps to be very, very specific about exactly what behavior we're looking for. If I'm rewarding my child for being kind, and being kind encompasses many things, it's hard for the child to really predict and know what to expect and what's expected. It's a much bigger task to "be kind" than it is to "use words to say you're angry." It's much more predictable for a child to know "I'm going to get a dime when I use my words to say I'm angry (instead of hitting)" than it is for a child to know "I get dimes when I do something kind." KWIM?

It's also easier for me, as the parent, to help my child with difficult behaviors when I am very clear and specific about what to address, and when I've prioritized so that I'm not addressing *every* behavior all at once. It's much
more effective for me to decide I'm going to (for example) help my child replace hitting with using words--it gives me a specific goal, and leads me to specific tools and methods to meet that goal.

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

it's hard to just want to work on one thing.

I hear you. IME, when you work on just one thing, in a way it starts to feel more manageable. You have one priority, and you're working hard on addressing that and letting go of the stress of addressing all of the rest of it *for now.* And when you start to see improvement in that one really important area, the stress level begins to fall and the whole family starts to feel better. Less stress makes the next thing easier to address, and some problems disappear on their own as the stress melts away.

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.

I wouldn't read too much into this. He made you something that he's proud of having made, he sees you enjoying it every day and feels a connection with you through your daily use of it, and enjoys hearing that you appreciate him.

Do not forget to take care of yourself and manage your own stress. This is so very important.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by jackson'smama

i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.

Don't beat yourself up! This was/is a great thing!! He is telling you that YOUR happiness is important to him. Go with that. Show him how happy you are when he does something good. IME that is what truly makes the difference. You can do rewards, too, fine. But, model how wonderful it feels to receive something, too.

Awesome job, mama!

[Adasmommy]

Something that works well with my dd (5) and can be done also, is that when she wants something (Can I have a popsicle? I want to watch a movie. Etc), I say, "Okay, just bring your dishes into the kitchen." Or, "Clean up the puzzle you were working on while I get the popsicle."

If she doesn't want to, or is "too tired," I point out that I will be happy to put on the movie while she does the job, and when the job is done, she will get what she wants. But always friendly and if she chooses not to, fine. I cheerfully continue what I was doing without putting on the movie.

That was my thought when you said he "didn't care" about the reward!

I know this doesn't specifically reward kindness, but I find that when she contributes a little--does some things for me in exchange for my doing things for her--then she is all over more kind and nice to be around. Being in a situation where people do things for you and you offer nothing in return is kind of crappy and can turn a person rude, I think.