Help! Our dog bit our friend's child tonight....unsure what to do? - Page 2

[mamallama]

Can you/are you willing to get a second opinion from a different vet?

I don't think rehoming is an option.

If she bit because she was in pain, rehoming doesn't solve that. She will still live a painful life. I am of the opinion that as custodians of animals, our first duty is to give them a life free of pain. If that's not possible, our only recourse is a humane death. I'm sorry. I know it's hard to hear.

If she bit because she is of an unsound mind, I don't see rehoming as a responsible option. For one, it's highly improbable that that mythical home where she will never encounter children or strangers even exists. But, more importantly, if she is so unstable as to bite randomly, my bet is her day-to-day mental state is not a comfortable one--something akin to a life of physical pain--and again, the kindest, most loving option is to give her a humane death.

Get a second opinion on pain relief. I have had dogs with chronic health problems, and I know for a fact that baby aspirin is not your only (or even most effective) option.

[OkiMom]

Im sorry you are going through this. I have a policy with animals, snapping/bitting without cause means a rehoming (if I can find something I think can deal with them) or they have to be put down. I won't take the chance with my family/children.

[mykdsmomy]

Thanks everyone. This has been an especially difficult time. The first vet that told us baby aspirin was at the pound where we adopted her. The second time was when we took her to our vet clinic we use. The vet there told us baby aspirin for her pain was the best we could do

We use this clinic because it's inexpensive and the staff has always been very good with our pets.
I called them this morning and they said they could see her tomorrow but we will have to wait because they will squeeze her in. They also asked if we could bring a muzzle (which we don't have).
The really awful part about all of this is we are sooooooo strapped right now due to medical bills from my son plus my husband losing some accounts from work. They also sort of eluded to the fact that if she's a "biter", they will encourage us to put her down.
I'll update tomorrow. I don't want to put her down per their opinion but I don't know who else we could go. (We priced vets around here before we got her and an office visit is around $75)

(It's not helping that DH is nonchalant about the whole thing : )

[phatchristy]

If she is in chronic pain like that, I would definitely consider euthanasia. Not only is she in pain, with a history like that wouldn't be able to be rehomed but you also have increased personal liability now that she's a 'known biter'. So sorry that you have to go through this.

[Nicole915]

Very strange that they would ask you to bring your own muzzle, I can't imagine they don't have one.

Is there something else going on with her medically that all she can have is baby asprin? There are all sorts of other pain management tools that we can use that aren't crazy expensive, things like tramadol that can be filled at your human pharmacy at a low cost.

They're probably going to push you to Euth, as the willingness to bite in the face is a signal that the dog is past a bite inhibition that is hard to work back from. They're also protecting their license, they will need to document that the client was advised that the animal has potential for further injury to children.

I hope you're managing okay, and that your husband is being more supportive. Thinking kind thoughts for you.

[betsyj]

There are many better pain options than baby aspirin. You can get them much cheaper online-ask your vet to write you a script for them.

As for biting the face-children tend to get bit there because that is what is level with the dog's mouth. Generally severity and not location depends on bite inhibition.

This is a very serious incident and I truly feel for your difficult situation. Considering keeping the dog would require hands on professional evaluation at this point.

[Flarmonster]

So sorry to hear about your experience. I know how stressful and frustrating that kind of incident can be. I wanted to write to clear a few things up as a veterinary technician and a dog trainer.

Please don't let anyone bully you into putting this dog to sleep unless they have behavior training and have taken a full history. I did not see what happened and have not taken a full history, but from what you have written, I don't think this dog is a good candidate for euthanasia.

First of all, this dog has grown up with your family and not had any incidents until recently, so you know it has a good base relationship with you. Secondly, it gave plenty of warning signs that I read in your post: growling, acting in a fearful and avoidance manner, hiding under things. Finally, when it continued to feel threatened by humans that seemed to ignore its loud cry to be left alone (whether due to pain or fear or both), it escalated into a snap. Contrary to what someone else wrote, that scratch your dog left on the child's cheek showed a GREAT amount of bite inhibition. Instead of whipping out the equivalent of a gun or a knife (a real bite that leaves puncture or tear wounds), your dog chose to deal with a perceived threat by pushing the aggressor away with the equivalent of a hard shove and a yell ( a scratch or air snap). Dogs have a great amount of precision with where they bite. You dog did not want to maul or hurt that child, she only wanted it to move away from her, and since the child did not understand how she was communicating it (and neither did any adult nearby who could direct the child), she felt the only way to move him away was to escalate into aggression to protect herself. The only significance of it being on the child's face is that it was the closest thing to the dog's muzzle. That is why most children get bitten in the face- they are on face level with the dog.

You need to get this dog checked out for pain first of all, especially since you suspect it already. I would suggest a different vet, if at all possible. The fact that they would say aspirin is the only thing available is just ridiculous. There are a TON of meds MUCH better than aspirin (robaxin, metacam, rimadyl to name just a few). Pain meds can do wonderful things to a dog's temperament when they are grouchy because of pain. Also, the fact that they told you to bring a muzzle because a dog scratched someone with it's teeth?? And that they would slap the label of a "biter" on her without ANY previous bite history? It takes 3 seconds to whip up a muzzle from gauze, too, BTW. Something they should know if they can't even afford to keep any real muzzles on hand. Also, don't automatically assume there is a mental "sickness" here or abuse, any more than a shy child is mentally sick or abused. Abuse is possible, but genetic predisposition is very likely too. Consult with a trainer before assuming those things.

Finally, what I would recommend right now:
1. Keep the dog away from any children until you can come up with a reasonable way to deal with her real fears
2. Assume she is in pain, avoid any unnecessary handling that she does not solicit. If she growls about something, please listen to her! She is saying she is uncomfortable. Punishing, assertiveness, reprimands or retribution will only scare her and make her think she needs to defend herself with aggression.
3. Have her checked by a real vet
4. Consult with a trainer
5. Be realistic about your family situation. If you do not have the time or energy to deal with a fearful dog and all the issues that come with it (management, training, etc.) then look for a new home for her.

Don't assume that just because your dog has done this once that it should be put to sleep. If there was more damage or more bites in her history, it would be an entirely different story, but I don't see any reason right now to put her to sleep. It sounds like a very manageable case in the right home that can deal with a fearful dog. The website www.fearfuldogs.com has a lot of great info too.

Lots of hugs to you as you go through this. Feel free to send me a private email if you need to.

Sarah Walker
Side by Side Dog Training
www.sidebysidetraining.com

[Nicole915]

Originally Posted by Flarmonster

Contrary to what someone else wrote, that scratch your dog left on the child's cheek showed a GREAT amount of bite inhibition. The only significance of it being on the child's face is that it was the closest thing to the dog's muzzle.

Originally Posted by betsyj

As for biting the face-children tend to get bit there because that is what is level with the dog's mouth. Generally severity and not location depends on bite inhibition.

While that was the wisdom many decades ago, these statements simply do not follow contemporary veterinary medicine practice. If you're interested in current studies and texts, a good place to start is with Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, it was my textbook in vet school, and continues to be the gold standard, or the Journal of Veterinary Behavior. I'm not a DipACVB vet specialist, but did concentrate heavily on canine behavior both in school and since, and would never feel comfortable making blanket statements about an individual animal's propensity for face biting.

Seeing a veterinarian (not a vet tech/trainer/self educated behaviorist) who can point you in the right direction should be your next step. Sadly you're in a situation where you must consider what would happen to the next child who your dog might bite, be it life long deformity or just a band aid while balancing your legal responsibilities. I'm so very sorry that your vet wasn't more proactive about pain management, and I hope that whomever that vet is, she takes something away from the situation.

[rubidoux]

This sounds like a really hard situation. I want to scream "don't kill that dog!," but I can definately see how you might feel that's the only solution given that you're likely not going to find another home for her overnight and you can't keep her there with your kiddos.

I can't imagine that it could be true, though, what people are saying about you still being responsible for any future biting if you rehome her. That really doesn't make any sense to me. It also doesn't make any sense that there wouldn't be potential homes without children. I have no doubt that there are plenty of homes w/o children. Obviously the people who take her would have to know the history, but if they do I just cannot believe that you would be responsible.

So, I just want to mention our situation bc we have lived with a difficult (and wonderful and lovable) dog for 11 years now. She started biting people about 3 mos after we brought her home from the pound (she had been very severely abused), and I'd say in that first year she probably nipped/bit (I think it was probably escalating towards biting, but I don't think she ever punctured anyone with her teeth) four or five people. The last three were people who were very much aware of the situation and thought they could help socialize her. But she wasn't having it. Sooo, she has not had a chance to bite anyone since then. She's basically been grounded for the last ten years. She has to go into the back yard or into our bedroom when we have company and she's not allowed offleash unless we're in a completely closed in area. When our first son was born, we were terrified and we had her completely separated, unless he was in our arms, for about three years. But it turned out, thank goodness, that she completely accepted him as a member of our pack and actually adores him.

I'm telling you this mostly because we are responsible dog owners. We adopted her and brought her into our family and loved her and there was no way we were going to get rid of her UNLESS she went after a child. I completely understand that your dog cannot live with your children any more. But there are other responsible dog owners and dog lovers out there and you may be able to find them.

Hugs!

[betsyj]

Most vets are not trainers or behavioralists. I use my vet for medical advice and my trainer for behavioral advice. She should see her vet to discuss pain and the mgmt of that pain. She should have her dog eval'd by a professional trainer/behavioralist for the aggression. There are many behavioralists out there who have years or decades of training and experience.

Good luck OP-this really is a terrible and heartbreaking situation to find yourself in.

[Flarmonster]

Originally Posted by Nicole915

While that was the wisdom many decades ago, these statements simply do not follow contemporary veterinary medicine practice. If you're interested in current studies and texts, a good place to start is with Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, it was my textbook in vet school, and continues to be the gold standard, or the Journal of Veterinary Behavior. I'm not a DipACVB vet specialist, but did concentrate heavily on canine behavior both in school and since, and would never feel comfortable making blanket statements about an individual animal's propensity for face biting.

Seeing a veterinarian (not a vet tech/trainer/self educated behaviorist) who can point you in the right direction should be your next step.

Could you please clarify what you are stating? That face bites on children are significant in another way? Do you have citations for that? I actually have the book you are talking about and I'm not sure where you are getting that information. I'm also not sure why you are so quick to put down my experienced suggestions.

If this mama can't afford to go to a vet who recommends more than an aspirin and BYO muzzle, I don't think she is going to be up for going to a credentialed Veterinary Behaviorist, which is what she would need if she wants a holistic approach to vet medicine and behavior. The next best (affordable) thing is working together with a good vet and a good trainer, as stated by the last poster.

I hope you are able to do that, mama, and if not, are to find a good rescue who will work with you and the dog.

All the best!

[mushka3000]

I got bitten by my friend's dog when I was about 13 - a small terrier with sharp little teeth that bit my hand hard enough to draw blood. I had been following the dog around the room and when it went under a table I leaned down and held my hand out in a "friendly" manner. My friend's mother apologized for not supervising me or warning me not to harass the dog when he hid under the table. The incident was definitely considered my fault.

I'm just throwing this story out there to give you another perspective. Does your dog have somewhere safe she can retreat to? Could you put a crate out for her and give children strict instructions not to bother her if she is in there?

Also -do you think there is any chance that she has a toothache or any other new condition that could be treated rather than just giving her pain medication? Do you think she is getting enough exercise and/or mental stimulation?

I'm sorry you have to deal with this and obviously you know your situation and your dog better than any of us do.

[2lilsweetfoxes]

My parents had a dog a while back that was so gentle with the children that when he started snapping at and biting my nephew, it shocked us all. I was living on the other side of the country at the time and I suggested they take the dog to the vet. He had cancer and was in a lot of pain. Several thousands of dollars were spent trying to cure/save him, but they ended up having him put down.

I'd find out the reason before just re-homing her. If it is anxiety, she could be medicated. If it is something serious, like cancer, then your decision would be different.