How muvh "good behavior" can I expect in a 5 year old?

[havsulen]

My husband and I are committed to gentle discipline. It is totally new to our extended family (our parents, siblingsetc) so it certainly makes us very different from many of the people we spend time with, and I know that many of them think that we are spoiling our kids because we don't punish/scold etc..

I have found comfort when I have read here before that as long as we are patient and give them the time they need to mature, our kids will eventually be able to show the behavior we model for them. Then the grand parents can see with their own eyes that we didn't have to be harsher.

But right now I am a bit impatient with our oldest. She is the sweetest little girl, showing a lot of love towards her younger sister (1, 5 years), jealousy has never been an issue. But she still sometimes has trouble sharing with other kids. She is also quite a boss when she plays with other kids, telling them which parts to play etc. And she often falls apart if things don't go her way - say if her father doesn't want to play the way she had envisioned for instance.

I try my best to think long term, and to remind myself that she tries her best every time. I know that 5 years old is still quite young. But I need someone to tell me that it will be fine, that she will outgrow this behavior.

I feel like when I was nursing her (until she was 4), I needed to see kids that has self weaned and were ok. It was so much easier to believe that she would eventually stop when I say other kids who had gone through the same.

I have so few friends and family with kids who aren't disciplined quite strictly, and it is hard not to think that I need to start with time outs and consequenses and punishment, too.

So please tell me - can I expect my child to "be nice" around other kids eventually? I don't expect her to never get into conflicts with other kids, but I would have loved to have a play date without always being scared of the next conflict.

I knew I had to help her a lot during play when she was a toddler, but now that she is almost 5 I am longing to be able to expect her to be kind. Oh, please let me tell you - 90 percent of the time she IS. But the last 10 percent of the time still bothers me.

I was always "a nice girl" as a child, too scared of harsh words from my parents to ever try something I was not allowed to do. I don't want my own kids to go through the same - I know that it is more healthy to show their emotions and be their true self. But ... I am sure that from the outside it looks as if we are failing with our mild guidance, and I need strength to believe in her and myself.

[JMJ]

Well, ideally, you would expect her to behave well all the time. You would see how you could format her environment to set her up for success, and you would delight in watching her choices and her personality.

First, are some of these things that you're having problems with things that are wrong, or are they just things that you don't like? The one that sticks out to me is your complaint that she "falls apart if things don't go her way." This sounds to me like an expression of her feelings. You may not want her to have those feelings, but an important part of GD is accepting the child's feelings. I think that sometimes throwing a fit is part of the natural consequence. She is choosing this expression of her emotions. You are not forcing it on her.

I think it is also an important part of the learning process. Dad has a right to draw boundaries as to what he is willing to do. She has a right not to like those boundaries and to express her displeasure. If she were my child, I would respond by letting her throw her fit, letting her know that I can see that she is angry without getting upset with her for getting angry, and calmly explaining to her that the boundaries drawn are not going to change.

For the other things you talked about, draw boundaries and encourage the other people around her to draw their own boundaries. If she is bossing you around, tell her that you would like her to ask nicely if you are going to do it for her. If she doesn't want to share, ask her if someone else can have a turn when she is finished. Take each conflict as a learning moment. She is figuring out appropriate ways to relate to other people. Thomas Edison claimed that he didn't fail 1000 times when trying to make his lightbulb. He found 1000 ways not to make a lightbulb. Try to look at your daughter's behavior the same way. Along the road, she is bound to try out some inappropriate ways to relate to other people. Help her to see, "well, that one didn't work. Try something else."

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by havsulen

But she still sometimes has trouble sharing with other kids. She is also quite a boss when she plays with other kids, telling them which parts to play etc. And she often falls apart if things don't go her way - say if her father doesn't want to play the way she had envisioned for instance.

This is really typical for 5 years old, especially one with a younger sibling.

[violet]

You mentioned you don't like some of the behaviors, like the not sharing and the bossiness, but you don't say what you Do when these things occur. Is the problem that she has these feelings and behaviors that you don't like to see but you feel like you are dealing with it well? Or is the problem that she has these behaviors and you feel at a loss for how to appropriately respond? I would say it sounds totally normal to me for 10% of a child's reactions/interactions to feel a bit messy. But if I felt like I didn't know how to deal with/set boundaries/ coach my child through it/ etc for 10% of her behaviors -- that I would worry about kwim? Certainly having trouble sharing and being bossy are normal, but waiting for her to outgrow it is not the same as helping her through it.

[sparklefairy]

The ages of 5-6 seem to me to be a time of HUGE social growth. A lot of learning takes place during those years. For some kids, it's learning the intricacies of having a conversation, for other it's physical boundaries, for some it's working to moderate personality traits such as bossiness or difficultly asserting oneself. This is when I see kids hearing 1000 times a day "take a step back, your friend feels crowded" but they don't seem to internalize the awareness until they're more like 7, if that makes sense?

[JL83]

Gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline. Discipline means to teach. It's OK to have boundaries and limits. And it's OK to be gentle with her when she tests or breaks those. It is possible to react to undesireable behavior in a way which shows empathy and compassion without condoning the behavior.

[philomom]

If well fed and well rested. I say a couple of hours.


I used to use the idea of "turns" for my littles. I take you to the park playground ... that's your turn. You be quiet in the library and look at books a few minutes so mom can pick some... that's mom's turn. In a little while it will be your turn again.

And kudos to the poster who said gentle discipline is still discipline. I completely agree. There's lots of little ways I encourage my children to do the right thing and make the right choices..... and it doesn't involve hitting or shaming.

[hempmama]

We are GD, and our kids are extremely kind, socially adept little people. No punishments needed.

The playdate thing kind of popped out at me. I would expect at this age to be able to have basically conflict free playdates with some friends a good portion of the time. I am definitely no longer on edge for conflict, and am surprised when it happens. Which is not to say they aren't sometimes bossy, but it doesn't rise to conflict level. One asks the other to stop, and they do. If it's conflict heavy, I think I would try to be more explicit with her about how people feel when one acts certain ways. Some of the natural consequences of social behavior are a bit subtle for 5 yos. We also introduced the concept of "perspective," and thinking about whether something is a big problem or little problem around 4. Not in a punitive or invalidating way, but I think then they are old enough to be able to take a step back sometimes. That might help with the falling apart.

[LynnS6]

The things that help me most is reading about child development. What I know about 5 year olds is:

They're highly verbal. Really verbal. And they wield language about as subtly as a Neanderthal with a club. Just like 2 year olds are likely to overuse physical power (i.e. hitting) to get what they want, 5 year olds are likely to overuse verbal power (i.e. rude, disrespectful talk or bossiness).

5 year olds are also often black and white in their thinking. Rules are rules. You don't violate them. Both of my kids when they were about 5 ragged on me for driving 38 miles an hour in a 35 MPH zone! That's why they can tend to be tattletales.

5 year olds are very opinionated. And of course, their way is the best way. They have empathy. They can see other people's point of view, but it's hard work (for parents & kids). This is probably the thing that I find most difficult about the stage my dd (also 5) is in. That's why 5 year olds want to assign all the roles when playing. Our dd has very definite ideas about how the world should be run, and anything that runs contrary to this leads to howls of protest. She constantly complains that one of our neighbors is 'mean'. Why? Well after weeks of digging, it's because the neighbor won't do what dd wants her to do!

5 year olds are still experiential learners. They often have to live through the consequence to understand. Yes, it's painful to watch, just like watching our dd ride the air mattress down the stairs was painful.

Originally Posted by havsulen

So please tell me - can I expect my child to "be nice" around other kids eventually? I don't expect her to never get into conflicts with other kids, but I would have loved to have a play date without always being scared of the next conflict.

This may be hard for you because you were the 'good' child, but these conflicts can be useful, as long as they don't get out of hand. Our dd is slowly learning that when she insists on her way all the time, other kids don't want to play with her. I can tell her this a hundred times, and it doesn't sink in. Having her friend leave teaches the same lesson after 2-3 experiences.

The other question is how 'bad' these conflicts are. Are they just plain old disagreements or are they bad enough that the other kids don't want to come back? If it's the former, you may need to increase your tolerance for conflict. Not all conflict is bad. Sometimes conflict leads to a nice negotiated settlement.

We've had a lot of kids around our house this summer (much to the despair of the two introvert parents!). There's a lot of 'conflict' that gets worked out.

Originally Posted by philomom

If well fed and well rested. I say a couple of hours.

:

Originally Posted by JL83

Gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline. Discipline means to teach. It's OK to have boundaries and limits. And it's OK to be gentle with her when she tests or breaks those. It is possible to react to undesireable behavior in a way which shows empathy and compassion without condoning the behavior.

Definitely. when dd (5)or ds (8) are too rude or bossy, I take them aside and ask them to try again. The other day, the entire neighborhood was in our front yard playing "Mall" where different stores were set up and different kids had jobs. Ds was the 'manager', but he was getting increasingly bossy and shrill. No one could do anything that he didn't want them to. When he came in the house for a bathroom break, I mentioned that I was hearing him being very rude to his friends, and asked him to figure out a more polite way to ask people to do things. I also reminded him that sometimes he needed to listen to other kids' ideas.

We have a neighbor who's often at our house. She and ds often gang up on dd. She came in the other day and said quite rudely to dd "Why don't you go play somewhere else." I looked at her and said "C, that was quite rude. Please try again." In fact, "that's rude, try again" is a common refrain in our house these days.

[havsulen]

Thank you so much for all your replies, they get me thinking!

I definately try to help her through each situation, I don't expect her to just evolve without guidance. I have read books like "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk", "Siblings without rivalry" etc, and we also try to use Non Violent Communication inspired by Rosenberg.
We do have boundaries, personal boundaries, and I try to show them in a gentle way.
So when something happens, I for instance try to help the offended kid, then show empathy with my daughter - saying that she can have the toy once the other kid is done with it, that I understand that sometimes it can be hard to wait etc

That is what is driving me nuts I think - I very much expected to be doing this sort of coaching her when she was younger - but I feel that I have spent the last 4 years of play dates constantly being ready to act as her guide. I am longing to be able to sit down and have a cup of coffee, thank you very much.

LynnS6: I love learning more about child development, so thank you!

I hear Hempmama saying that she would expect to have little conflict during play, and I would love for that to happen here soon. I guess I just have to keep trying to live through it, and be patient, increasing my tolerance for conflict. It has never been so bad that other kids don't want to come back. Of course, the other kids are bossy and not sharing sometimes, too. I guess I am expecting much from her, but you know, I have found comfort in the saying "Kids behave as well as they are treated", keeping my hopes up that she would treat other kids as gently as we try to treat her. I am not saying that we always manage, but we do try our best. And now, I feel that she is behaving worse than she is treated.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Hi, Havsulen.

I think I understand where you are coming from. My expectations sometimes gets the best of me, and when it does, I see my son differently. I see him as "not being exactly like I envisioned him" instead of seeing him as the amazing, unique and wonderful little person he truly is. The fact is, he IS different from what I had thought he/our life would be. But that is not his fault, you know? And most of the time, he is more amazing, more loving, more everything than I envisioned him.

Do you think it is possible for you to try to stop thinking about what you "should be able to"? And just try to live in the moment, right now? I don`t know how your life is, but I feel that in MY life, when I get too hung up in what "should be", it just makes me frustrated. And when I am frustrated, it shows. And that makes my son uncomfortable, and it will affect both how he acts and how I act. Trying to see and accept him just as he is, makes it easier for me to see the whole picture, too.

I hope you find some of this helpful. :


Ps: Are you the Havsulen I think you are? I am Line Tamara, from AP-Norge. We miss you there.