Muslim swimwear

[hakeber]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/...urquini_banned

What do you guys think of this?

I think the President and the Mayor are pure out of line deciding what is and is not religious imprisonment and oppression of others, and frankly I think their comments only serve to boldly underline that the supposed ban on full body suit swimwear has a lot more to do with discrimination than health issues.

The suit shown in the picture is no baggier than any of the UV protective wetsuits used by a lot of small children, and snorklers who are conscientious of the risks of skin cancer, and I doubt very highly that they throw a kid out of the pool for swimming in a t-shirt when their shoulders are burned and yet...isn't that also "public attire" I would say likely even much more so than the burquinis these women use for the pool.

I don't know why this makes me so mad, but I wish like heck I lived in Emerainville right now so I could get a whole mess of women and men together to wear full bopdy swimwuits and just dive in. Who do they think they are?! I'm not Muslim, but I think it's time France started to understand a little bit more about it's second largest religious sect.

[lilyka]

well it sounds like it did violate the pools dress code, being loose, not so much covered. It sounds like even men are not allowed to wear loose shorts and must opt for the swim suits that fit like bike shorts or speedos like one would wear on a swim team. ok fine. it is a stupid rule and their reasons is insane but whatever. So long as said rule applies to everyone. it sucks but that is the rule for pool attire. and it is a posted and followed rule.

the mayor on the other hand. what kind of moron is he? legislating fashion!!!!??? but then I do not consider france in any way to a free or enlightened society. and his comments reinforce that notion for me. talk about setting people back .... lack of religous freedoms is so not ok anymore.

and while i do think there are serious issues of France and their ban on modest attire and their lack of religous freedoms, i don't think this swim suit has anything to do with it.

[Liquesce]

France and issues of attire are, by this point, nothing to be even remotely surprised by, in my opinion.

What were the results of the study recently commissioned with regards to the proposed ban upon the Very Serious Public Nuisance That Is Niqab? Something like under 400 women in the entire nation even wear it?

And don't even get me started on the headscarves in public schools thing.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

France and issues of attire are, by this point, nothing to be even remotely surprised by, in my opinion.

Yup.

It's just willful ignorance, sadly.

[umsami]

It amazes me that a Muslim swimsuit is a problem, yet going topless is not viewed as a problem.

I could understand it...the claims of health issues and such....if it was just street clothes, but the Muslim/Modest swimsuits are not. They're made from the same material as other swimsuits and splashguards. Heck, with the number of suspicious moles I've had removed, the fact that my "burquini" has SPF 50 built in is fabulous.

The problem is ignorance of people like M. Guillaume who said, ""These clothes are used in public, so they can contain molecules, viruses, et cetera, which will go in the water and could be transmitted to other bathers." It's not street clothes, idiot. It's a swimsuit used solely for swimming.

And for the record, as somebody who did used to wear Speedos and swim on a varsity swim team, the well-designed modest swimsuits are very easy to swim in. Not even as bulky as swimming in the drag suits I used to use during practice.

[EdnaMarie]

I love France, but this kind of thing about La Republique ALWAYS pisses me off, though I'm not shocked.

The only thing is that at least I don't feel like America has the worst of the right-wing fanatics. So I feel less lonely, knowing how my French friends are suffering.

I like the burquini. I thought it was such a great idea when I first saw it. Have you ever seen those poor Saudi women with their babies in the ocean? What a pain to be in the long chadri in the water!

[cappuccinosmom]

Ugh. I am always ticked off when I hear about France's "issues" with modest (Muslim) dress.

I'm not Muslim, but I do believe in modesty and have always greatly admired the modest dress of many Muslim women.

The "health concerns" are ridiculous. Burkinis "might carry viruses"? Helloooo! The human body can carry viruses. Even if it's completely nekkid.

[vegk8]

I lived in Paris for a year and just wanted to say that topless bathing wasn't permitted in the public pools at that time. Beaches are another story, which I have no problem with really. The people I swam with generally wore more modest suits than I see at the pools here in the US (ie. suits for swimming not for flaunting. )

Anyhow, this story doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I am very irritated with France's attitudes in terms of Muslim dress at this point. I agree with the point made that burkinis are swim attire. I wish the article had quoted someone talking about the material and the fact that they are by no means street clothes. This event isn't about health concerns, it's about discrimination for sure.

I was a French major during my undergrad years and have spent a lot of time in France. I am going to be taking some graduate courses in French beginning in a couple of weeks. One is a writing course. I expect, I'll be doing a fair bit of research. I'm actually interested in the attitudes of the French towards Muslims, particularly women. I hope I'm able to choose my research topic.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by vegk8

I'm actually interested in the attitudes of the French towards Muslims, particularly women. I hope I'm able to choose my research topic.

That would be a really interesting topic.

[vegk8]

Thanks. I think so, too. I just hope I can do it.

As a side note, coming from a "tradition" of colonialism (British), I can't help but think/say seriously, do the French not realize that had they not colonized Muslim areas, they would not be having these "issues." The same goes for the Brits whining about the fact that Britain is no longer British. People have to be a bit more flexible and that includes recognizing that the people of a nation create its culture, and culture is not a stagnant thing. End rant.

My boyfriend is from a country colonized by my people. Gosh we screwed a lot of things up! I live in the US now where I hide each 4th of July. Just kidding!

[Dar]

Why the French Don't Like Headscarves
This is by one of my professors... I think it's fascinating, and it's really helpful in understanding why the French have such a hard time with headscarves. His newest book is called "Can Islam Be French?" and the bits I've read are great... I think it will be published this fall.

ALthough colonialism is certainly a big part of it, the French concept of laicite is also important to understand what's going on. I could go on and on... actually, I'm going to be at the Sorbonne in the spring, studying this general issue...

And I almost bought a burqini in Alexandria this summer... they were cheap and cute! I swam in my capris and a t shirt there, fwiw (in the sea).

[vegk8]

Thanks for the book recommendation. I will certainly look for it at the library.

I guess I just don't agree with scarves and swimsuits having to be an issue of laicite. I think that the/a state can be laique without dictating dress code. You are right though, it is more than just colonialism. I do, however, think that these stricter rules are a non-violent attempt at ethnic cleansing.

Thanks for your recommendation again!

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by vegk8

I do, however, think that these stricter rules are a non-violent attempt at ethnic cleansing.

:

[tessie]

The French seem to think everyone should wear Speedos.

I don't think this issue is about religion, they don't allow anything other than tight fitting swimwear at public pools.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by tessie

I don't think this issue is about religion, they don't allow anything other than tight fitting swimwear at public pools.

In the broader context of what has long been going on in France with regard to an acceptance of efforts to impose an external vision of what is appropriate visibility, and sometimes what is and is not Islamic at all, upon the Muslim community, it really is. The subsequent remarks from the regional mayor, for example, are quite telling ... he agreed with you that it has nothing to do with religion. Not because of some odd national public waters hygiene standard, but because there is no mention of swimwear in the Qur'an. Apparently, if non-Muslim French leaders haven't found it in the Qur'an, actual Muslims have no business attributing religious significance to it.

[tessie]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

In the broader context of what has long been going on in France with regard to an acceptance of efforts to impose an external vision of what is appropriate visibility, and sometimes what is and is not Islamic at all, upon the Muslim community, it really is. The subsequent remarks from the regional mayor, for example, are quite telling ... he agreed with you that it has nothing to do with religion. Not because of some odd national public waters hygiene standard, but because there is no mention of swimwear in the Qur'an. Apparently, if non-Muslim French leaders haven't found it in the Qur'an, actual Muslims have no business attributing religious significance to it.

I do understand where you are coming from as I know the history of the French and overt religious symbols (which applies not only to Muslim garments but also to other religious symbols) but I really don't think this particular issue is about oppressing Muslims. They won't allow a non Muslim man to swim wearing board shorts or a non Muslim woman wearing a t-shirt over her swimsuit.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by tessie

I do understand where you are coming from as I know the history of the French and overt religious symbols (which applies not only to Muslim garments but also to other religious symbols) but I really don't think this particular issue is about oppressing Muslims. They won't allow a non Muslim man to swim wearing board shorts or a non Muslim woman wearing a t-shirt over her swimsuit.

: And they won't let you wear a ski mask on your way through airport security but they'll go out of their way to accommodate niqab, for a reason -- a refusal to make exceptions in the name of the recognition of obligation, be it physical or cultural, is oppressive towards people with different absolute requirements than the presiding physical and cultural norms. (While personally I find refusing board shorts or whatever to be just as dumb, it's not quite the same.)

(As an aside, while the religious symbols prohibition does not only impact Muslims, it was well known before its enactment that the most heavily affected population in France would be Muslim girls, and it was well demonstrated in the political rhetoric at the time that this was the point of its most ardent supporters. The neutral wording of the final law didn't well mask the intentions of it, and so it's sad to me when I see the neutral wording seeming to be remarked upon as somehow mitigating its more targeted nature. It's kind of like the PA "garb laws" which prohibit public school teachers from wearing visible religious symbols to work -- the law is worded neutrally, and was at one time rewritten to be worded even moreso, but that it arose in a swell of anti-Catholic sentiments is still the dominant fact of its existence.)

[yarngoddess]

wow. First let me say- the suit, is so very cool! I think that it's a great alternative to the typical suit. I think that if it makes you (any one) comfortalbe wearing this kind of suit- then that woman should be allowed to wear it! I am very uncomfortalbe in a bathing suit. I am over weight and have had 4 babies, so I am very uncomfortable in a bathing suit. I think that wearing a suit like this should be OK.

I'm very sad about the French position against Muslim people It just makes me sick that there is so much anger and violence and ignorance regarding religion.

I hope you who are writing your papers on this issue are able to write great papers- maybe the minds of others can be opened and people can let go of all this anger....

[mamabadger]

Not defending the French attitude, but trying to understand it better...

Originally Posted by Liquesce

As an aside, while the religious symbols prohibition does not only impact Muslims, it was well known before its enactment that the most heavily affected population in France would be Muslim girls, and it was well demonstrated in the political rhetoric at the time that this was the point of its most ardent supporters.

From what I read, the main objection to "Muslim clothing" is that it is discriminatory or demeaning to women, because women bear the main burden of modesty requirements. I think if you told a typical French politician that their prohibitions would mostly affect Muslim girls, they would say that proves the prohibitions are needed. The rules affect Muslim girls and women more because Muslim men can go out in "regular" clothes, and this is seen as unfair. Is that the basic idea?

[DahliaRW]

But who is the French government to dictate what is right or wrong. If a muslim woman or girl WANTS to dress modestly according to their faith, what's wrong with that?

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are modesty standards for muslim men, right? I'd guess they are probalby more in line with what others wear.

As for me, I couldn't swim in France. I don't wear small, tight-fitting swimsuits because, as a Christian, I don't find them to meet MY OWN modesty standards. No man, even my husband, has every told me what I can/can not swim in (ok, so my dad only allowed me to wear a one-piece as a kid, but that wasn't a big deal). I usually swim in a one piece uv suit that has sleeves and goes to the knees with a skirt over it. Wouldn't be allowed in France. And no, I don't feel "oppressed", it's my choice.