Homosexuality and the Bible

[AlwaysByMySide]

There was a good discussion about this awhile ago, and I have a specific question that would have been better to ask in that thread, but that thread is locked, so I hope it's okay to open up a new one.

I am a Christian, and I also believe that homosexuality is not inherently wrong, and I know that there are Christians at MDC that agree with me, and that disagree with me. But I want to specifically address a comment that was made, that I shouldn't be hanging around gay people with my children there (as in - my 4yo DD's best friend has two mommies, and I shouldn't let her see the two mommies together, doing whatever it is that two mommies do in front of 4 year olds that is so offensive?) because then I am teaching her that that is okay, and then she might grow up to be "that", and then she'll go to hell. So I should teach my children that that is wrong, because I don't want them to go to hell, because I claim to be a Bible-believing Christian and that's what the Bible says, yada yada yada.

So, for those of us who believe otherwise, I guess I'm looking for advice/guidance on how to refute that argument, respectfully. If my kid came home and told me she was gay, I'd be happy for her, I wouldn't be worried that she'd be going to hell. For the record, I'm arguing with a born-again evangelical, who is very important to me, and it's important that this issue get hashed out, so I'm not just willing to say, "Well, that's what they believe and it's too bad for them that we don't agree."

I hope to keep this a respectful discussion, please.

[cappuccinosmom]

OK, I am a born-again evangelical who would be on the side of any sex outside of hetero marriage being outside God's perfect will/Word.

That said, I think it is *silly* to keep children away from homosexuals in particular. I mean really, they "see" all types of people, from all backgrounds, doing all sorts of things, any time we go out. We believe strongly in modesty. But if I were to avoid all contact with immodest people, we'd never leave the house. Most people don't dress according to our standards of modesty, so I suppose pretty much all friendships would be out, and then if everybody applied this, we'd lose our friendships with our even more conservative friends so their children wouldn't grow up to be "immodest" like my children. :

I would point out two things to your friend:
1. A person doesn't go to hell for being homosexual, anymore than a person goes to hell for being a glutton. If your friend believes homosexuality is sin according to the Bible, this friend must also know that gluttony is included in the list of "really bad sins". Picking out a particular sin and saying "You're going to hell for that" is a form of "works righteousness" which most Evangelicals claim to despise, since we're supposed to be relying on the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus for our salvation.

2. One can relate to, even have wonderful relationships with, people with whom one disagrees strongly. My aunt, who has been with her female partners for decades, reads my radically conservative blog. And compliments me on it. : We have great times at family get-togethers, and her "gayness" isn't even on the radar when it comes to family relationships. We love each other, we enjoy each other's company, she and her partner were wonderful to us when we were kids and are wonderful to our children now. Spending time with them did not "turn" me or my siblings gay, and I have no fear that it will have that effect on my kids either. It is no different than my other aunt who has lived with her male partner for decades. We do not believe that is Biblical either, and wouldn't want our children to do that, but it doesn't mean we can't love people where they are, spend time with them, and relate to them.

[doubledutch]

why does it need to be hashed out? you two are not going to agree so . . . ?

i understand what it is like to have people you love very much believing that you are "endangering your child's soul" and all that. engaging in that discussion is not productive. it is okay to simply tell them you appreciate their care and concern for your family and you're glad you have them in your life. if they press, it's okay to say your friendship with mom&mama isn't up for debate. then repeat, "you're very important to us, and i want to enjoy our time together. let's not argue." and change the subject.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

I would have to second what cappucinosmom said. Under her logic, she needs to keep her children away from anyone who is living in unrepentant sin. Is she prepared to do that? As in never leaving the house???

[kimiij]

Originally Posted by doubledutch

why does it need to be hashed out? you two are not going to agree so . . . ?

I agree. I think you should only have the discussion if you go into not trying to change her mind. I agree with cappucinosmom that her reasoning doesn't make sense. BUT, by "hashing" this out, you could lose a friend in the process. Friends don't have to agree on all things. Say your opinion, let her say hers, and then just move on. Seriously, I wouldn't want to see you lose a friendship.

[Valkyrie9]

Isn't there a scripture that lists good attributes and then finishes, "But the greatest among these is love"? (Forgive my bad memory. I'm a long way from my Bible days.)

You could apply this in a couple of ways. One, you could point out that having love for your fellows is the greatest thing you can do, regardless of those folks' beliefs or lifestyles. The other way you could look at it is that homosexuality is another form of love--certainly in the case of your daughter's friend with two mommies. Who are we to say that love is wrong?

Another thought is that while the Bible makes no specific mention of Jesus having contact with homosexual people, would it be safe to assume he'd treat them any differently than he did the prostitute of whom he said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? While I am no longer a Christian, I am sure that Jesus did not have a double-standard in this regard.

[AlwaysByMySide]

Good to know I haven't completely lost my mind.

It's a boyfriend. Who has kids that I occasionally babysit. And I mentioned having a playdate with DD's best friend and actually, the response was that it was okay as long as only one of the moms was there. (As if, if both of them were there, they would have sex in front of all of us or something.) I told him that I didn't want my kids to be taught that love was wrong, or taught intolerance, etc, and he said he didnt want his kids to be taught that "that" was okay.

I even brought out the "love is love" argument - lead ballooned. Jesus and the prostitute, I crashed and burned on that one too. He and I have argued over stuff in the Bible before (spanking being one of the bigger topics) and I've gotten him to change his way of thinking on that when he takes the blinders off and stops picking and choosing what he wants to believe.

I don't expect him to want to go to Key West with me and hang out with drag queens (one of my favorite vacation-y things to do), but the response I got was not at all on a level that I am okay with. I care about him enough to at least put in the effort to discuss it like civil adults. I also care about myself and my children enough to think hard about walking away over this. (I have a gay brother, a gay aunt, DD's best friend has two mommies...there is no issue in my mind. It doesn't even register in my brain. I also have no patience for ignorant intolerance.)

On every topic other than this one, we pretty much see eye to eye. We both acknowledged that we need to discuss it calmly, but that it is an issue that needs to be discussed, because it appears to be a possible dealbreaker for both of us.

[umsami]

Homosexuality is not caused by a virus... it's not contagious. Just as gay people hanging out with straight people aren't going to suddenly become hetero.

I would say, coming from my ex-Christian background, I want my kids to be comfortable around all people--different colors, sizes, religions, and sexual orientations. Because I have no idea what God may call them to do in their life. What if their ministry is gay people? Jesus dying on the cross applies to all people. Jesus did not agree with shunning lepers, prostitutes, or anybody else--nor do I believe we should.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by AlwaysByMySide

Good to know I haven't completely lost my mind.

You haven't at all. I think you're doing a great job and important work in raising children who will be open-minded and kind-hearted.

[cappuccinosmom]

Another thought is that while the Bible makes no specific mention of Jesus having contact with homosexual people, would it be safe to assume he'd treat them any differently than he did the prostitute of whom he said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? While I am no longer a Christian, I am sure that Jesus did not have a double-standard in this regard.

I am sure Jesus would not have a double standard. However, I'm pretty sure this friend would be quick to point out that after Jesus said that thing about casting stones, he said to the woman "Go and sin no more.".

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

Another thought is that while the Bible makes no specific mention of Jesus having contact with homosexual people, would it be safe to assume he'd treat them any differently than he did the prostitute of whom he said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? While I am no longer a Christian, I am sure that Jesus did not have a double-standard in this regard.

You forgot the important ending, Christ told the woman to "Go and sin no more."

[smeisnotapirate]

Is he referencing Leviticus 18? That's part of what's colloquially known as the Holiness Code (Lev 17-20something. It outlines commandments given by G-d to the Israelites. Here are some of the things that are in the Holiness Code:

1. Keeping the Sabbath and the Torah-stated festival holidays. Does he observe Yom Kippur? Sh'mini Atzeret? Because G-d told him there to observe them.

2. The actual prohibition is against MALE same-sex relationships.

3. Drinking blood. A medium steak counts as drinking blood.

4. Ritual slaughter. Does he buy kosher meat, slaughtered according to the laws in Leviticus?

5. A child insulting its parents should be stoned to death (Lev. 20).

6. Waiting until the next day to pay a "hired servant" (read:employee) is unlawful. Most of our employment system works on 2-week pay periods!

7. Not sowing fields with 2 kinds of seed.

8. Not wearing clothes with 2 different kinds of material. (I'm SURE he's guilty of that!)

Lastly, have him try on Lev 19:18 for size:

18 Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

~JPS

I can't help much with the Christian bible stuff, but I hope I've given you a bit about Hebrew Bible arguments. Also, didn't Jesus supercede anything in the Torah? I seem to remember learning that a million years ago in CCD.

[doubledutch]

oh . . . boyfriend. someone you could possibly form a family with and be parenting with, therefore his opinion matters very much. (i was thinking family-of-origin or something, not possible-future-family-of-choice.) now i understand wanting to find out whether you can come to an agreement. i hope you can, because this would be a total deal-breaker for me.

no suggestions for how to bring about the desired enlightenment. sorry.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by Tradd

You forgot the important ending, Christ told the woman to "Go and sin no more."

That's true. However, in Matthew Peter asks how many times one can trespass and be forgiven, and Jesus replies that there isn't a limit and offenders should be forgiven "seventy times seven."

[Oriole]

I think there are sins far worse that people do daily, and yet they point fingers at homosexuality. :

I really don't get it. So I'm with you on that one.
I see people swearing at their loved ones, getting drunk, jealous, proud, watching movies that by no means are "good for the soul", let's not even start on eating habits in the US, cheating on their spouses, living together before marriage (which I'm guilty of myself ) divorce every five years, yet insisting that a loving gay couple is somehow deserves a pointed finger before they clear up their own sins.

I don't get it. I will never forget a gay couple that adopted a young boy dying of AIDS. There is no way that God looks at that couple and thinking "hmmm... those two need correction for their lifestyle".

The God I believe in is loving and fair. To be fair, a faithful gay couple is hurting no one, and deserves the same consideration of whether they spread love or hate as any other human being. To me, if God chooses to create 1/10 of population on this Earth gay, he will not be condemning them for what he has done. Actions that comes out of deep love are what's good in this life, and I believe that God looks at whether we fill our lives with LOVE vs. HATE much more so than any other commandment.

I just cannot envision a kind, generous gay person not getting into heaven just because they are gay. I can see someone having difficulty if they lived their lives spreading hate (be it against gay people, or any other group out there).

P.S. I always liked the "Don't judge" part of the Bible, but it's funny how often it is forgotten to fit a particular cultural standard.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

2. The actual prohibition is against MALE same-sex relationships.

Actually, Torah only prohibits one specific sexual act between two men. If a gay couple refrains from anal intercourse, they're not violating any Biblical prohibitions.

I woudln't get into any major Biblical arguments with people who think you should stay away from gay people (or people who smoke, or people who swear, or people who dress immodestly, or....) If this is somebody on a message board, I'd completely ignore it. If this is somebody you know IRL and enjoy spending time with, then I'd focus rather on the religious ideas about "love the sinner, hate the sin" and "being a good host and not making guests feel uncomfortable" and similar kinds of teachings. You're teaching your DD to be respectful to all people. She doesn't have to be rude to "sinners" to be taught "sin is wrong."

[MysteryMama]

Judgement is reserved for Christ alone. I would tell him that. I think you've gotten some really good responses here.

[AlwaysByMySide]

Well, we got into it again tonight. And he brought out his Bible and showed me 1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders," and he said that if we're going to believe that the Bible is the truth, that's what we have to go by. It's in the NT, and that's that, and there's just no argument over that. And if I cared about my friends as much as I say I do, then I should be concerned that they will go to hell if they die tomorrow if they don't repent and change themselves.

I tried the judgement tactic...which was refuted with that he wasn't judging, he was just trying to save people. He cares about them, he's not judging them. And that any church teaching that being gay was okay was a false teacher, which people predicted there would be false teachings, and on and on and on and I just turned around and walked away at that point.

I don't understand how people can claim to be Christian and be so intolerant. It's like I'm reading a completely different Bible.

I agree with a previous poster that said that I don't think there can be gay people who do all sorts of wonderful things and they get to heaven and God says, Well, you've been a good and faithful servant, but you loved the wrong gender, so you're going to hell, thanks for playing. Not the God I know.

Thank you guys for the thoughtful and intelligent responses. Maybe some of you would have had better luck in this argument. I feel like I've been arguing with a brick wall, and unless there is a verse in the Bible somewhere that specifically mentions homosexuality being okay, I'm not going to win with him. Which is fine, and I'm okay with that. It means he's not someone I want to marry and raise children with. It's just sad that he's out promoting a Christian message when I don't think that this was what Christ was all about.

[smeisnotapirate]

I'm sorry - this sucks for you.

Maybe writing a letter would be cathartic for you. Even if you never send it.

[AlwaysByMySide]

He called today to let me know that yes, it would be okay to bring his kids to a playdate with the gay moms. (I put it on him that if THAT wasn't okay, we have playdates with a mom who is - gasp! - having sex outside of marriage, and maybe she's not okay to be around either, because one of my kids might do the same thing.)