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They bought in 1999 and owe more than they paid! - Page 2

post #21 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amys1st View Post
I guess I am not understanding? I the wife do not work (well for a w2) and have 2 school aged kids (well one preschool) and we have sold to upgrade.

Can you expand on this??

Or and I had TWG on my shelf for years. It was not for show and gave it away so others could benefit from it.
If they had financial difficulties she would have a job to pay the bills.
post #22 of 35
We are on our third house and have made a profit each time where the people we bought from don't seem like they do...we do buy fixer uppers and do the fixing ourselves, but still we always feel like we did better than whoever we bought from...

Anyway, that was the impression I got from the OP and then the thread seemed a bit hard. So to the OP, we have been there wondering if they did something "wrong or unwise" and trying to figure them out...Not sure how you don't put money in and end up breaking even..
post #23 of 35
But you don't know anything about these people except 3 numbers on the closing statement. A lot of assumptions are being made, which IMO are not well founded. All that is known is that they paid $165K 10 years ago, and at the time of the sale are carrying $200k in mortgages against the house. Oh and they have a copy of the Tightwad Gazzette. How is that anywhere close to enough information to make any kind of judgment about the financial position of this family? Maybe they have elderly parents that they needed to put in nursing care, maybe they started a small business, maybe they purchased a rental property, maybe the husband went back to school to finish his degree/get a masters and they decided to use their equity to fund that so they could continue their SAHM situation, maybe they spent unwisely, maybe they used their equity instead of getting a construction loan on their new house, maybe maybe maybe. The point is that we don't know because that sort of information is not generally made available to the buyer, and especially not on the closing papers.
post #24 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildmonkeys View Post
We are on our third house and have made a profit each time where the people we bought from don't seem like they do...we do buy fixer uppers and do the fixing ourselves, but still we always feel like we did better than whoever we bought from...

Anyway, that was the impression I got from the OP and then the thread seemed a bit hard. So to the OP, we have been there wondering if they did something "wrong or unwise" and trying to figure them out...Not sure how you don't put money in and end up breaking even..
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.

Quote:
Maybe they have elderly parents that they needed to put in nursing care, maybe they started a small business, maybe they purchased a rental property, maybe the husband went back to school to finish his degree/get a masters and they decided to use their equity to fund that so they could continue their SAHM situation, maybe they spent unwisely,
And none of that depresses you? You wouldn't feel at all sad at gaining no financial ground in ten years?
post #25 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.
I understand your point- here, by what you can see, they owe MORE than what they originally borrowed. But houses were not always sources of income the way they have been treated recently. My parents bought a house in 1990 for $180k and sold it in 1999 for the exact same price. Technically they didn't gain anything financially-- I guess maybe they even lost because they had to pay the transaction fees on the house-- and while that was frustrating, it wasn't really the point of the purchase. Of course now the house is worth almost $500k FWIW.

So there are really no guarantees. All judgment aside, I think that's the important point. BUYING A HOUSE IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF ANYTHING. Except maybe that you can paint your walls whatever you want and no one will complain.

And, your assumption that they gained no financial ground in ten years is what people are arguing with. How do you really know what their financial picture is like? Maybe the fact that they KEPT the house given whatever hard times they encountered is enough of a "gain." But anyway. I'll let others speak to that point.
post #26 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
And none of that depresses you? You wouldn't feel at all sad at gaining no financial ground in ten years?
I don't know about that. We made some not-so-stellar decisions in the past. When we sold a home a few years ago, we walked out with a smaller amount of equity than we could have. We had taken out a home equity loan in addition to our mortgage. We used the HEL to pay for lots of "little" things costing a few thousand dollars each- we used a little to pay for our adoption travel expenses, we used a little to buy a (used) car, we used some to fix up the house. Maybe we weren't as financially savvy as we should have been, but we didn't feel sad that we hadn't gained as much financial ground as we could have. We were happy that our lives had been so rich and satisfying in the previous years. To be honest, we weren't thinking in terms of net worth. We were thinking that DH had a bigger salary, we had a bigger family, we had paid off cars, we had no credit card debt- so we HAD made a financial gain in the previous years.
post #27 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.

But they just bought a new house right? Do you know how much they put down? I haven't heard of many loans getting through with less than 20% in cash, so maybe they gained all THAT financial ground.
post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.

And none of that depresses you? You wouldn't feel at all sad at gaining no financial ground in ten years?
Well if they hadn't taken out that equity, they would have paid that 100K down the drain also, since on a 30 year schedule they would have only paid $18Kish (132K original mortgage, 7.5% interest), so 82K down the drain.

Try this scenario:
Say they did their refi in 2004. They would have already paid on their 132K mortgage for 5 years. They would have made $50K in payments and paid down $8K in principal. Now they do their refi so they have that money to use on things they want or need. Now they have their new $180K @5.5% and 35K @8% mortgages. That puts $91K in cash in their pockets. Now they use that $91K to purchase a rental property free and clear and it provides a positive cash flow of $400 a month. So now even though their payment is now $1300, it is offset by that $400 positive cash flow from their rental property. They make their new payments for 5 years paying another $50K. So in the 10 years since they've bought the house, they've paid $100K in payments. But since they used their equity to purchase their rental property, they now have something that provides them a passive income providing them with long term security they would have had if they had paid down their mortgage instead.

And since for their 10 years of paying their house payment they now have a free an clear rental property to show for, who's to say that's not a better position to be in than to have paid down $18K of their mortgage?
(All numbers completely fictional in this example)
post #29 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by cristeen View Post
My parents did this. They bought their house before I was born, so over 30 years ago. You would think by this point they'd have it paid off or at least close. Nope, my dad kept refinancing for cash out. Last I heard he had a mortgage for over $500K on a house that they bought for $22K.
That is my IL's. They are in danger of losing their house right now as well. They refied for the cash out 22 months before they would be done paying their mortgage, and then refied 2 more times after that. Stupid, stupid, stupid. My MIL gambled most of it away.
post #30 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.



And none of that depresses you? You wouldn't feel at all sad at gaining no financial ground in ten years?
Before you make these judgments, don't you wonder what the OP paid for her house? If she paid 10K or 100K or MORE over that original 168K, then you can't really say they have nothing to show for it, right? They have made an investment and chose to REALIZE some of the proceeds of that investment prior to selling the house. And if they did something fun with that money - a trip to Africa, or buying an RV or something - who is to say that's not gaining ground/should be viewed as depressing?

I have to say this is an interesting thread because some people are SO focused on eliminating debt that they see that as the only way to get ahead. That's perfectly fine for them, but it's not the way everyone views their life's objectives. Yes I pay down my mortgage every month, but I have zero intention of living in this house for the rest of my life. I will have another mortgage someday. So paying it down is prudent but not part of an overall goal to pay it off. I know very few older people with paid off homes. (The people I am thinking of are very well to do) Do they have the assets to do so? Sure, but a lot of people choose to keep themselves more liquid than having all of their capital tied up in their homes. I am totally off topic by now. But I have been reading this thread and really disliking the approach of judging and condeming some poor strangers because they have not complied with a simplistic and black and white approach to personal finances.
post #31 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Yes, TEN years of paying every single month, and they're behind where they started, with nothing to show for it. How depressing is that? It's $100,000 or so down the drain.



And none of that depresses you? You wouldn't feel at all sad at gaining no financial ground in ten years?
But you don't know what they have to show for it. They may have purchased a holiday home by refinancing their primary home, financed adoptions, anything really.
post #32 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower.mama View Post
Before you make these judgments, don't you wonder what the OP paid for her house? If she paid 10K or 100K or MORE over that original 168K, then you can't really say they have nothing to show for it, right? They have made an investment and chose to REALIZE some of the proceeds of that investment prior to selling the house. And if they did something fun with that money - a trip to Africa, or buying an RV or something - who is to say that's not gaining ground/should be viewed as depressing?
Oh, I thought I'd put that in the thread title or the first post. They paid $165,000, and now owe $168,000, plus a $35,000 second mortgage. Assuming it was zero down they're only $38,000 down. If they had a deposit they're even further behind. On a 30 year term they should only owe $142,000 now. Or $111,000 on a 20 year term.

Quote:
I have to say this is an interesting thread because some people are SO focused on eliminating debt that they see that as the only way to get ahead. That's perfectly fine for them, but it's not the way everyone views their life's objectives. Yes I pay down my mortgage every month, but I have zero intention of living in this house for the rest of my life. I will have another mortgage someday. So paying it down is prudent but not part of an overall goal to pay it off. I know very few older people with paid off homes. (The people I am thinking of are very well to do) Do they have the assets to do so? Sure, but a lot of people choose to keep themselves more liquid than having all of their capital tied up in their homes. I am totally off topic by now. But I have been reading this thread and really disliking the approach of judging and condeming some poor strangers because they have not complied with a simplistic and black and white approach to personal finances.
I think there's a big difference between paying down a mortgage and withdrawing equity the moment you can. Mathematically, yes, you shouldn't pay early if you can invest the money for a higher return. Paying extra is an emotional decision. But withdrawing equity is another thing entirely. Would you like to discuss it? Should we spin off a thread?
post #33 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delicateflower View Post
Oh, I thought I'd put that in the thread title or the first post. They paid $165,000, and now owe $168,000, plus a $35,000 second mortgage. Assuming it was zero down they're only $38,000 down. If they had a deposit they're even further behind. On a 30 year term they should only owe $142,000 now. Or $111,000 on a 20 year term.
No, the question is what did they sell it to you for?
post #34 of 35
Here is another spin on the imagined story.

A few years ago we owned a house debt free, no mortgage. We wanted to upgrade, found a great house, then took out a Equity line on the paid off house to buy the new house. We owned both houses for a few months while we fixed up house 2 and sold house 1. When house 1 sold at closing it looked like we were paying off a large mortgage with only a few thousand coming to us after closing.

So you never really know.
post #35 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhiandmoi View Post
No, the question is what did they sell it to you for?
Lots. But that wouldn't be the case if we were in Vegas or Florida or California.
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