This first-time dog-owner needs some direction...breeds, vaxs, meds, food, etc.

[Rikki Jean]

Okay, I HAVE had a dog before, but I was in high school, my mom brought her home from a church (a lady was giving them away in the parking lot), and I wasn't responsible for any major decisions concerning her (just picking up the poop, of course). So, for all intents and purposes, I'm going to consider myself a first-time dog-owner.

We don't have a dog...yet. That's why I'm here. My husband and I would really like a dog, and our almost 4 y/o is DYYYYYYIIIIIING to have one. Our 21 m/o loves dogs too, so really, everyone wants one.

We're planning to rescue a dog from the pound. We want something mid-sized (ie. large enough that it can handle my rough [mostly in affection; they won't be beating the dog, just loving on it!], hyper children, but not so big that it needs 20lbs of food a day [that's an exaggeration, I'm sure]), great with children, minimal known health-issues (my mom raises purebred Chinese Cresteds...they're all going blind. Issues like that are not something I want to deal with), minimal shedding, if possible (I'm actually allergic to dogs...it gets better for me with exposure though), and something that will look scary to an intruder (I have some irrational fears about being attacked outside at night, or having an intruder in our home), but that doesn't have too strong of a predator instinct, as we have free-roaming chickens, and I would like to keep my flock alive.

I know that beggars can't necessarily be choosers at the pound, but some direction with what breeds are and are not a good choice for us would be helpful. I know that a good amount of dogs there will be mutts, and I'm definitely okay with that. I would LOVE to have a pitt bull (my dog from HS that I mentioned before was a pit-lab-doxie mix [totally bizarre, I know; she looked REALLY funny], and she was just awesome), but DH's grandparents are our landlords, and they won't allow us to have one, because they think they're dangerous (even though they own a chihuahua, the dog most likely to bite, and their dog has nipped at my children a number of times. Ugh!).

The other things I'm trying to figure out are my stance on vaccinations, regular meds, food, and...am I missing anything important? Common sense tells me to vaccinate the dog; it's an animal, it can easily become diseased (right?), and I'm not eating the dog, so it's not a direct threat to me if there are vaccines in the dog's system. My anti-vax for humans stance gives me pause though...I'm sure that the right thing to do is to vacccinate, but I wanted to ask here anyway.

What about regular meds (like heartworm)? Are those completely necessary? Are there natural methods that I should go for instead?

And then there's the issue of food. We follow a traditional food diet, so my gut tells me that dried pellets of who-knows-what are not really the food that dogs were designed to eat. Are we going to go into the poor-house feeding a dog a more raw/traditional diet? I looked at a website once, about a year ago, that talked about a raw diet for dogs, and I remember it being pretty intimidating...

I'm sure I've forgotten something. I'm trying not to overthink this, especially with the health stuff. We will love our dog like a memeber of our family, but in the end, for us, it IS a dog; I'm not one to spend thousands of dollars on surgery for a dog, when I have humans to worry about supporting, kwim? However, my dog from high school died from cancer a few years ago (she was just living w/my parents at that point), and that was really sad. I'd like to prevent any crazy things like that, if possible.

If you got this far, thanks for reading my novella!


ETA: Oh gosh, I just went back and read my, "what I want in a dog" paragraph. It sounds like I'm trying to build a computer! Seriously, I know that I can't be that picky, but I'm going to be as picky as is reasonable...I want a dog who is going to be an upstanding member of this family for a long, long time!

[Nicole915]

How exciting!! There are bunches of breed selector tools on the internet that will let you go through your preferences and give you a list of compatible breeds. I think its awesome that you're willing to go with a shelter animal, and thank you for that. You might also want to consider the breeds specific rescues, so that you'll have a better shot if you do indeed find a breed you'd like, many of them also rescue crosses of that breed. One advantage of breed rescues is that most often the animal is in a foster situation where the foster parents can give you a genuine snapshot of how the dog will behave in a home setting.

As far as vaccines go, some of your decision must depend on where you live and what type of life the dog will have. For example, a dog that lives in the city and is only walked on sidewalks probably doesn't need a yearly Lepto booster. By law you will need to give rabies vaccine. Most shelters will adopt the dog out only after s/he has gotten all the appropriate shots, but that doesn't mean you have to give a booster every year. If you're so inclined, you can have your vet draw a blood sample and do a titer to determine if your dog has enough antibodies that it doesn't need another vaccine. This is the way I strongly encourage my clients to go, but only with the understanding that the titer must be done yearly and a vaccine must be administered if the dog doesn't have immunity. Losing a dog to parvo or distemper is one of the worst things to face in veterinary medicine.

Diet is another matter of personal choice. I'd encourage you to talk to the vet you choose about what they think will work best for your dog and your family. There are some public health issues when feeding a raw diet, it can also be rather expensive. That said, in dogs who's presentation indicated that they were a good candidate, and the owners were willing to do the blood work to make sure that the dog was getting proper nutrition, some of those animals have thrived. Sadly, I make more money than I care to admit fixing dogs that have been on a raw diet. There are a lot of people, specifically in the mdc type community, who are very pro-raw, but it is really a decision that should be made with your vet, rather than anecdotal reports. It might be great for you and it might not be a good choice. A few dog food brands that I'd recommend are Wellness and Solid Gold. Purina spends more on nutrition research than any other company, but their low end ingredients are less than ideal.

There are natural ways to deal with many of the challenges we face in vet medicine, just as there are for human medicine. For example, acupuncture is VERY effective in animals, dogs in particular. The key is finding a vet hospital where they have a similar approach to yours. A good place to start is with a list of your area AAHA vets (this is a voluntary designation that requires extra education higher animal care standards) and visiting them. Not sure where in Southern Cali you are, but several people I went to school with have practices out there, feel free to send me a message if you'd like their info.

Okay, must stop typing now!

(I'm not your vet, and this isn't medical advice)

[KimL]

no dog should have to be "big enough to handle a rough and tumble child". save the rough and tumble for non-live play things please!

[Rikki Jean]

Originally Posted by KimL

no dog should have to be "big enough to handle a rough and tumble child". save the rough and tumble for non-live play things please!

Well, they're little boys, and they act like...little boys! I didn't say they were going to be beating the dog with baseball bats. They just aren't ideal candidates to be owners of lap dogs.

ETA: When I said rough, I should have clarified that I was mostly referring to the type of affection they like to give. They can only squeeze my mom's Chinese Crested's so much before they scare them off.

Also, I've seen them interact with bigger breeds who are child-friendly, and I know from those experiences that it's much more suitable for them. It also helps them to see the dog as a big animal, and not a little toy that they can pick up and play with.

[Rikki Jean]

Originally Posted by Nicole915

How exciting!! There are bunches of breed selector tools on the internet that will let you go through your preferences and give you a list of compatible breeds. I think its awesome that you're willing to go with a shelter animal, and thank you for that. You might also want to consider the breeds specific rescues, so that you'll have a better shot if you do indeed find a breed you'd like, many of them also rescue crosses of that breed. One advantage of breed rescues is that most often the animal is in a foster situation where the foster parents can give you a genuine snapshot of how the dog will behave in a home setting.

As far as vaccines go, some of your decision must depend on where you live and what type of life the dog will have. For example, a dog that lives in the city and is only walked on sidewalks probably doesn't need a yearly Lepto booster. By law you will need to give rabies vaccine. Most shelters will adopt the dog out only after s/he has gotten all the appropriate shots, but that doesn't mean you have to give a booster every year. If you're so inclined, you can have your vet draw a blood sample and do a titer to determine if your dog has enough antibodies that it doesn't need another vaccine. This is the way I strongly encourage my clients to go, but only with the understanding that the titer must be done yearly and a vaccine must be administered if the dog doesn't have immunity. Losing a dog to parvo or distemper is one of the worst things to face in veterinary medicine.

Diet is another matter of personal choice. I'd encourage you to talk to the vet you choose about what they think will work best for your dog and your family. There are some public health issues when feeding a raw diet, it can also be rather expensive. That said, in dogs who's presentation indicated that they were a good candidate, and the owners were willing to do the blood work to make sure that the dog was getting proper nutrition, some of those animals have thrived. Sadly, I make more money than I care to admit fixing dogs that have been on a raw diet. There are a lot of people, specifically in the mdc type community, who are very pro-raw, but it is really a decision that should be made with your vet, rather than anecdotal reports. It might be great for you and it might not be a good choice. A few dog food brands that I'd recommend are Wellness and Solid Gold. Purina spends more on nutrition research than any other company, but their low end ingredients are less than ideal.

There are natural ways to deal with many of the challenges we face in vet medicine, just as there are for human medicine. For example, acupuncture is VERY effective in animals, dogs in particular. The key is finding a vet hospital where they have a similar approach to yours. A good place to start is with a list of your area AAHA vets (this is a voluntary designation that requires extra education higher animal care standards) and visiting them. Not sure where in Southern Cali you are, but several people I went to school with have practices out there, feel free to send me a message if you'd like their info.

Okay, must stop typing now!

(I'm not your vet, and this isn't medical advice)

Thanks for your input!

I looked into some local shelters a while back, and I was having a hard time finding any that adopted out to families with children under six. We're nowhere near done having babies, so we're going to have children under six for a long time! I'm going to do some more research though, so maybe I'll find something that works for us!

I guess I have a lot of research to do.

[Girl In The Fire]

Originally Posted by Nicole915

Diet is another matter of personal choice. I'd encourage you to talk to the vet you choose about what they think will work best for your dog and your family. There are some public health issues when feeding a raw diet, it can also be rather expensive.

(I'm not your vet, and this isn't medical advice)

Most vets do not have a back ground in nutrition beyond the very basics and will tell you to feed whatever kind of food they are selling in the front office. I would be weary about taking dietary advice advice from someone that does not have a back ground in animal nutrition and may have a second agenda.

Since you are I assume a vet or work in veterinary medicine please list some research about raw diet being a public health issue, I would love to read some studies about this.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

Okay, I HAVE had a dog before, but I was in high school, my mom brought her home from a church (a lady was giving them away in the parking lot), and I wasn't responsible for any major decisions concerning her (just picking up the poop, of course). So, for all intents and purposes, I'm going to consider myself a first-time dog-owner.

I think that's a great plan - when DH and I got our first dog together, we thought we were pretty well prepared, having both had dogs growing up. Not so much! It's a whole lot different once it's really your dog.

We're planning to rescue a dog from the pound. We want something mid-sized (ie. large enough that it can handle my rough [mostly in affection; they won't be beating the dog, just loving on it!], hyper children, but not so big that it needs 20lbs of food a day [that's an exaggeration, I'm sure]), great with children, minimal known health-issues (my mom raises purebred Chinese Cresteds...they're all going blind. Issues like that are not something I want to deal with), minimal shedding, if possible (I'm actually allergic to dogs...it gets better for me with exposure though), and something that will look scary to an intruder (I have some irrational fears about being attacked outside at night, or having an intruder in our home), but that doesn't have too strong of a predator instinct, as we have free-roaming chickens, and I would like to keep my flock alive.

I would recommend speaking to the folks at local humane societies, shelters, and rescues. Your best bet is probably a medium-sized mixed breed that has a stable temperament and loves kids. Past puppy-age will be the easiest for you (i.e. minimum 1-2 years old) so that you're past the worst chewing/teething/other puppy naughtyness.

As far as the chickens you'll probably just have to test the dog around them and see if they have a prey response. I wouldn't worry about looking scary - our "scary guard dog" is 35 lbs of fuzzy cuteness, though she sure doesn't seem that way when she's doing her "mean bark" at a suspicious noise or person. When DH is away on business and I hear a funny noise at night I just look at Chaos - if she's not worried, I know it's something outside otherwise she'd be on full alert. You can also teach almost any dog to bark on command if someone spooks you (use an innocuous sounding command that you would not otherwise say like "easy boy" so the person will not realize it's a command).

The other things I'm trying to figure out are my stance on vaccinations, regular meds, food, and...am I missing anything important? Common sense tells me to vaccinate the dog; it's an animal, it can easily become diseased (right?), and I'm not eating the dog, so it's not a direct threat to me if there are vaccines in the dog's system. My anti-vax for humans stance gives me pause though...I'm sure that the right thing to do is to vacccinate, but I wanted to ask here anyway.

Why do you say that dogs easily become diseased? That is the first time I've heard that and I have 2 dogs. The vaccine issue is a personal choice, though I do very limited vaccines. Likely by the time you adopt a dog they will have been vaccinated by the rescue as well as by previous owners. Personally I am doing rabies only at this point (every 3 years, as there's not much difference between the 1 and 3 year vaccine). My old guy is 10 now so he's not getting any at this point.

Regardless of what you decide on the vaccine issue, I definitely would not vaccinate annually (not necessary to re-do it all every year) or give combo vaccines (higher chance of reactions and with multiple given you won't know what caused it; giving individual vaccines spaced by a couple of weeks is safer and lets you choose exactly what you want to give). Also consider vaccine shedding since the dog will be around your family.

What about regular meds (like heartworm)? Are those completely necessary? Are there natural methods that I should go for instead?

That depends largely on the area you live in. In certain places I would give heartworm medication, but you can look into things like the Safeguard dosage or spacing by 45 days instead of 30 (which is what most are actually rated for, the 30 days is a convenience). In our area heartworm is not common so we do the blood test and do not use the medication.

And then there's the issue of food. We follow a traditional food diet, so my gut tells me that dried pellets of who-knows-what are not really the food that dogs were designed to eat. Are we going to go into the poor-house feeding a dog a more raw/traditional diet? I looked at a website once, about a year ago, that talked about a raw diet for dogs, and I remember it being pretty intimidating...

A raw diet is not at all scary once you learn the basics - we can help with that or point you to sources. I've been feeding raw for over 4 years now to my dogs and have been very pleased with the results. The dogs are incredibly healthy and energetic, have great muscle tone (and as I mentioned one of my dogs is over 10 now). They have no "doggy" smell, have shiny coats, their teeth are clean, and my sensitive tummy dog didn't have firm stools until we started raw. Honestly, there are so many positives.

[Rikki Jean]

Ola, thanks for all of your input!

Originally Posted by Ola_

Why do you say that dogs easily become diseased? That is the first time I've heard that and I have 2 dogs. The vaccine issue is a personal choice, though I do very limited vaccines. Likely by the time you adopt a dog they will have been vaccinated by the rescue as well as by previous owners. Personally I am doing rabies only at this point (every 3 years, as there's not much difference between the 1 and 3 year vaccine). My old guy is 10 now so he's not getting any at this point.

Regardless of what you decide on the vaccine issue, I definitely would not vaccinate annually (not necessary to re-do it all every year) or give combo vaccines (higher chance of reactions and with multiple given you won't know what caused it; giving individual vaccines spaced by a couple of weeks is safer and lets you choose exactly what you want to give).

Well, I don't know that they can become easily diseased. That was just my guess, and what I've heard from other people. Again, I'm just starting to research it, so I don't really know a whole lot about it right now.

The good news is that my mom can do any vaccines that we want (she has the equipment, since she was a breeder; I'm sure it's not hard to come by, but I'd rather have her do it than myself anyway), other than rabies. So, I think that doing singles vaxes, should we choose to vaccinate, will be easy for us, and won't require multiple vet visits.

Originally Posted by Ola_

That depends largely on the area you live in. In certain places I would give heartworm medication, but you can look into things like the Safeguard dosage or spacing by 45 days instead of 30 (which is what most are actually rated for, the 30 days is a convenience). In our area heartworm is not common so we do the blood test and do not use the medication.

We're in hot southern California, and from reading different posts on this forum, it looks like heartworm is a problem here. I'm going to look into alternative treatments for it, for sure.

Originally Posted by Ola_

A raw diet is not at all scary once you learn the basics - we can help with that or point you to sources. I've been feeding raw for over 4 years now to my dogs and have been very pleased with the results. The dogs are incredibly healthy and energetic, have great muscle tone (and as I mentioned one of my dogs is over 10 now). They have no "doggy" smell, have shiny coats, their teeth are clean, and my sensitive tummy dog didn't have firm stools until we started raw. Honestly, there are so many positives.

I've done some reading, and intend to do tons more. I don't think it's scary either. My instincts as a traditional foodist tell me that raw food is what makes sense for dogs.

[Sailor]

I would never not give heart worm medication, personally. It's just such a great prevention that can save a dog's life. I work in rescue, and you can't even imagine the amount of cases where dogs have heart worm. Some so far gone that it's beyond treatable and they just have to be put down. It's very say and can totally be prevented.

I buy Ivermectin and give it to my dog. But, not everyone is comfortable with this option as you have to measure it out yourself, dosing based on your dog's weight. If you miscalculate and give too much, you could kill your dog. I use garlic for flea control. One whole garlic clove per day.

I also feed raw - basically my dog gets the raw form of whatever meat my dp and I eat that night. Except my dog gets a few extras, i.e. organ meat, bone, sometimes eggs, etc. I think raw is the best diet for a dog - healthy coat, the poop is hard, small, and with no smell, and you'll never need to pay for a teeth cleaning. I also find it a lot less expensive than the brand of kibble I would choose to buy. I have found that most vets are against raw feeding, so if your vet freaks out over this, don't let it deter you. Mine is against it as well, even though she's a fantastic vet otherwise. I just ignore her in the nutrition area.

I definitely recommend teaching your kids how to behave around a dog, and how to touch a dog though. Especially with a new dog, there is an adjustment period, and just squeezing him or even hugging him hard is a bad idea. You never want your kids to do that when you're first getting to know the dog. When the dog gets to your home, it's going to be a huge adjustment. The dog may be afraid, may be nervous, may be shy, may forget commands or ignore them for a bit, and rough touches could spark protective behaviors in the dog. If the dog becomes too started or afraid, they'll protect themselves.

So, definitely remember you'll be training both the dog AND your kids.

Also, when you think about a dog ... think about how much exercise you will be able to provide on your WORST day. A very high energy breed will drive your family CRAZY without enough exercise. I know - I have one, lol. So, keep the exercise needs in mind, and how much of it you can - realistically - provide.

In terms of type of dog ... well, that's all up to you. I can't recommend anything here as all I've ever known were dobes, GSD's, and pits. I have a GSD and am totally biased in this area.

I vax my dog, but I have his titres done so that I'm not just pumping him fill of junk every year.

Good luck on this journey. It's an exciting one.

[Nicole915]

Originally Posted by Girl In The Fire

Most vets do not have a back ground in nutrition beyond the very basics and will tell you to feed whatever kind of food they are selling in the front office. I would be weary about taking dietary advice advice from someone that does not have a back ground in animal nutrition and may have a second agenda.

Since you are I assume a vet or work in veterinary medicine please list some research about raw diet being a public health issue, I would love to read some studies about this.

Not sure where your vet went to school, but man it sounds like a great place... only having to study the "very basics". I took three full years of clinical nutrition, plus two nutrition rotations, continuing education and yearly seminars. And nutrition is not one of my areas of focus. I very much doubt that many of the people hawking raw food guides could pass the nutrition part of vet boards. If you feel your vet has an agenda beyond advocating for your animals wellness, ie selling only their stocked food, then you need to find a better vet. Especially if you're feeding a barf diet, as balancing vitamins and minerals, essential amino acids is profoundly difficult, and you'll be spending a lot of time getting blood draws to determine what is missing or over represented.

Here are a couple good papers to get you started, you can find them at any vet school library, or you can purchase them through their respective journals:

Salmonella serotypes in selected classes of food animal carcasses and raw ground products, January 1998 through December 2003
J Am Vet Med Assoc. February 2004;224(4):524-30.
Columb P Rigney1, Bernard P Salamone, Neena Anandaraman, Bonnie E Rose, Robert L Umholtz, Kathleen E Ferris, Delila R Parham, William James

Evaluation of the surgical intervention in canines consuming raw meat diets Salaam region, Tanzania
Trop Anim Health Prod. April 2006;38(3):185-94.
F M Kivaria1, J P T M Noordhuizen, A M Kapaga

There should be something later on this year in Small Animal Clinical Endocrinology, but not sure when they're releasing data.
And a website:
American College of Veterinary Nutrition

And book recommendations:
Small Animal Clinical Nutrition - by Hand
Metabolic and Therapeutic Aspects of Amino Acids in Clinical Nutrition - by Cynober

As I stated in my original post, raw diets can work in extraordinary cases, but the science behind them is sketchy at best and the possible complications are vast. Your pets are your own, and of course you're free to feed them whatever you choose, but I'd encourage people to make decisions based on peer reviewed evidence, not internet testimonials. If internet testimonials were accurate, I think my email spam box would be far more interesting. =)

[mrsteapot]

Well, I can't offer any advice on the food stuff, and we are living in Japan and so our dog is WAY overloaded with the rabies vax (they do not have rabies over here and want to keep it that way) and we do both frontline and heartgard because mosquitos are super bad over here and so is heartworm.
But I'll second German Shepherds, we love our handsome boy. He is awesome with our kids, including the baby. He totally fills your wish list.... except he think it is hilarious to charge at the fence and scare what ever is on the other side. And he loves to chase the birds. But I don't think it is a breed thing, I think it is him, I swear if he could laugh he would.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

Well, I don't know that they can become easily diseased. That was just my guess, and what I've heard from other people.

I think it probably depends a lot on the dog and what circumstances they are living in. A dog that is healthy, fed an optimal diet, and has a well-functioning immune system can withstand a lot. Our two are very healthy and visits to the vet are for routine checkups or the occasional vaccine only. I hope that continues as they age.

I've done some reading, and intend to do tons more. I don't think it's scary either. My instincts as a traditional foodist tell me that raw food is what makes sense for dogs.

I would definitely agree. As you said earlier scraps leftover from the human food industry (which is not always healthy to start with), blended, heated, and preserved enough that they can sit on store shelves for months don't sound like the best nutrition to me.

Raw is not difficult to do once you know the basics, though it is often a bit more expensive (for some people it's actually cheaper because they find great meat sources). I don't listen to folks who say that a good pet diet can only be created by those who have a degree in nutrition or multinational corporations. I mean if someone told you the same statement about feeding your family it would sound ridiculous, wouldn't it? The rules are different for feeding dogs than humans, but not any more complicated.

Basically I'd suggest to feed 70-80% meat, 10-20% bone, and 5-10% organs (with about half of that being liver). At the beginning start with one meat source and slowly add variety as your dog gets used to raw. And feed a variety of protein sources - at least 3-4 different ones I would say (except in cases of food allergies). Those are the basic rules, there are some other "good to know" things but I don't want to derail the thread too much.

[Girl In The Fire]

You stated that raw feeding can cause public health issues and insinuated that kibble fed dogs are less of a public health nuisance. I don't feed raw but your comment confused me a bit and I wanted some clarification. None of those articles you listed has anything to do with your statement. Of course there can be bacteria in raw meat and I am not sure what dogs in Tanzania, a third world country, has to do with dogs in developed countries being fed an owner provided diet

I am genuinely interested in reading any kind of credible research that has been done comparing raw fed dogs to kibble fed dogs. By raw fed I specifically mean dogs in developed countries being fed human quality meat. I would really like to see some long term studies comparing overall health and longevity and issues arising that can be specifically attributed to diet.


If your main concern is salmonella or e.coli, kibble fed dogs can and do carry salmonella and e.coli. Kibble can be tainted with salmonella or other pathogens as well. People can easily prevent infection from any source by following common sense practices like hand washing or not picking up dog poop with bare hands.

[greenmagick]

Well, I know many vets who feed and support a raw diet as well, so I guess its not all "internet testimonial".

I have been feeding raw for over 7 years now, would never dream of going back to kibble. It makes no sense to me.

It reminds me of like slimfast shakes or something that is "all the nutrition you need in one can".....can you imagine people living like that...eating the same dehydrated "balanced" diet every day, year after year? No way that would be healthy!

It also reminds me of formula...here, everything is measured and in perfect balance...that makes it healthier!

[Rikki Jean]

Originally Posted by Sailor

I buy Ivermectin and give it to my dog. But, not everyone is comfortable with this option as you have to measure it out yourself, dosing based on your dog's weight. If you miscalculate and give too much, you could kill your dog. I use garlic for flea control. One whole garlic clove per day.

Yeah, I have problems measuring correctly for baking, so...I think I should probably stay away from the Ivermectin.

I definitely like the idea of garlic for flea control though!

Originally Posted by Sailor

I definitely recommend teaching your kids how to behave around a dog, and how to touch a dog though. Especially with a new dog, there is an adjustment period, and just squeezing him or even hugging him hard is a bad idea. You never want your kids to do that when you're first getting to know the dog. When the dog gets to your home, it's going to be a huge adjustment. The dog may be afraid, may be nervous, may be shy, may forget commands or ignore them for a bit, and rough touches could spark protective behaviors in the dog. If the dog becomes too started or afraid, they'll protect themselves.

So, definitely remember you'll be training both the dog AND your kids.

Oh, this is definitely our plan. Since my mom has five dogs, we've tried to do this from day one with both of our boys. They just have a hard time getting it with smaller dogs. Like I said though, they act much differently right away around a larger dog. It's like they have a totally different respect for them (probably because the dog is as big, or bigger than them!). And really, hugging a little Crested "hard" could be barely touching a big dog. We'll definitely be working on training everyone when the dog comes home.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Also, when you think about a dog ... think about how much exercise you will be able to provide on your WORST day. A very high energy breed will drive your family CRAZY without enough exercise. I know - I have one, lol. So, keep the exercise needs in mind, and how much of it you can - realistically - provide.

This is why I looked right past Huskies (I know that they're generally not great for kids, but our local Husky rescue has some that they said were good for kids)!

Originally Posted by mrsteapot

But I'll second German Shepherds, we love our handsome boy. He is awesome with our kids, including the baby. He totally fills your wish list.... except he think it is hilarious to charge at the fence and scare what ever is on the other side. And he loves to chase the birds. But I don't think it is a breed thing, I think it is him, I swear if he could laugh he would.

Sounds like an awesome dog!

Originally Posted by Ola_

I think it probably depends a lot on the dog and what circumstances they are living in. A dog that is healthy, fed an optimal diet, and has a well-functioning immune system can withstand a lot. Our two are very healthy and visits to the vet are for routine checkups or the occasional vaccine only. I hope that continues as they age.

Okay, I'm just sitting here telling myself DUH! I would apply that exact same theory to humans. How did I forget about it for dogs?

Originally Posted by Ola_

Raw is not difficult to do once you know the basics, though it is often a bit more expensive (for some people it's actually cheaper because they find great meat sources). I don't listen to folks who say that a good pet diet can only be created by those who have a degree in nutrition or multinational corporations. I mean if someone told you the same statement about feeding your family it would sound ridiculous, wouldn't it? The rules are different for feeding dogs than humans, but not any more complicated.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by greenmagick

It reminds me of like slimfast shakes or something that is "all the nutrition you need in one can".....can you imagine people living like that...eating the same dehydrated "balanced" diet every day, year after year? No way that would be healthy!

It also reminds me of formula...here, everything is measured and in perfect balance...that makes it healthier!

These are my thoughts as well. Your comment about slimfast made me think about the humans in Wall-E!

[Catubodua]

just want to chime in another voice about how you should train your kids to interact with the dog. even some very well behaved, emotionally balanced dogs don't want hugs from children.

think of it this way - how would you feel if someone decided to hug you, but they were kind of clumsy and hugged your head or around your neck and did it tightly b/c they were excited?

you'd probably feel smothered and your instinct would be to push them off you. but, as a human, you could think it through and know that the person has their heart in the right place so you wouldn't have to overreact.

dogs can't think it through like that, and their lines of defense are growling and biting, neither of which you'd want around your kids.

so, yes, kids can be enthusiastic, but it is up to you to help them channel it into something the dog does like and won't make him/her feel threatened.

[GreenVariety]

I'm new here but this form hit a chord with me. I worked in a holistic/allopathic vet clinic for 2.5 years after graduating with my degree in Biology. It was something I loved doing but wasn't paying to bills so I had to leave. I would like to say, first and foremost that most of the doctors in the 7 doctor clinic would not hesitate to put me in a room with a client that wanted to know more about nutrition, especially when it came to a species specific diet for dogs or cats. The reason they did this (and they were graduates from Virginia Tech, Michigan State, Penn State, Kentucky State - I believe I have those all right) was because I knew more about nutrition then they did (or at least they felt I did - most of their knowledge was what was pushed on them by classes that were sponsored by Purina or Hills). The two holistic vets did have a knowledge base on raw feeding but did not feed raw themselves. And IMHO a classic mistake of someone that doesn't know too much about the raw food diet options is referring to raw feeding under the blanket statement of BARF. The one vet that had done some research when Dr. Billinghurst's data first came out still referred to it as this and we had a long conversation one day on why most people that feed raw do not use that acronym anymore (partly because it's a disgusting acronym and partly because the concept of raw has evolved so much). The reason I am sharing this is because I worked closely with 7 vets and the one that though his nutrition knowledge was exceptional recommended Iams and Eukanuba. He didn't know what Solid Gold or Wellness were (two brands that I am very impressed with although last I checked Wellness had sold out - so kudos for recommending them! If I wasn't feeding raw or in a pinch I will use Wellness CORE but I find raw easy and have been feeding it to my dogs and cats for 4 years or so). I triaged a lot of animals both in the hospital and over the phone. If they had gotten in the trash and eaten a cooked T-bone (or a chicken carcass) from the night before it was an issue, they came in! If they had eaten raw chicken bones or a raw lamb bone (or what have you) they were just monitored by their owner (unless it was the one doctor who recommended Iams...he loved animals but he fed Eukanuba and was convinced for some reason that it was the best food out there . I do not have any sort of degree in veterinary medicine but I do know from experience that the knowledge base is not generally there. That is not to say there aren't exceptions. I would never EVER assume that a vet doesn't care about your animals if they are recommending Hills, Purina or Eukanuba (or whatever else), that was definitely NOT the case with the gentleman I was speaking of. He cared a ton, but he wanted to fix animals and help them and it never occurred to him that diet plays as large of a roll as it does. He is the doctor I take my animals to if there is a problem. I can't expect him to know everything...and he takes care of tons of animals, I just don't discus nutrition with him. I take care of 5 animals, and they are my babies. It is my responsibility to be in tune with their needs and their bodies (just like you would be with a child IMHO). This is just my recommendation and take it as you will, but never walk away from a good vet (you like everything about them except their take on nutrition) because they don't know nutrition. If they want to know about your dogs diet and you don't want to discuss raw with them because of past experiences...just tell them your pet is on a premium home prepared diet.

There are many reasons that I recommend raw, here are just a few:
Teeth - love them pearly white!
Coat
Poop
Smell
Health
Weight (or Weight Management)
Allergies
Joint Problems - one of my guys has knee displasia (diagnosed by that awesome Dr. I was telling you about, who also recommended NSAIDs) it has been managed with a raw food diet

As far as vaccines go, that's really up to your discretion as others have said. I haven't vaccinated my pets since the 1 year boosters. I noticed vaccine reactions with my older two immediately. I got the third one post vaccination but he had key "markers" or vaccine reactions. Vaccine reactions can be very subtle or very dramatic (my older male developed a large brown spot on his left iris within a week or receiving his Rabies booster). Cancers at the injection sit years later have been observed in animals as well as full out anaphylaxis.

You can get some really good vaccine information from Jean Dodds' sight http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm (a little older but still way ahead of most vets) and Dr. Ronald D. Schultz, Ph.D. (Google him there is tons of info!) to name 2. Dr. Pitcarin is also a wonderful resource (I have and have read/referenced his book on multiple occasions). If you want some articles to read just PM me with your email address. I have a few written by veterinarians.

Here are some other wonderful resources (for food, vaccines and all things dog).

NameWebsite --Website -- Type
*Our Dogs Online -- http://www.ourdogsonline.com -- Forum
*The Dog Food Project -- http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ -- General
*AuNaturalK9 -- http://www.aunaturelk9s.com/ -- Natural Rearing
*Monica Segal -- http://www.monicasegal.com/-- Nutrition
*Raw Dog Ranch -- http://www.rawdogranch.com/ -- Raw
*Holistic Pet -- http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HolisticPet/ -- Yahoo Group
*AuNaturalK9 -- http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AuNaturelK9s/ -- Yahoo Group
*K9Kitchen -- http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Kitchen/ -- Yahoo Group
*CarnivoreFeed-Supplier -- http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/C...Feed-Supplier/ --Yahoo Group
*Raw Chat -- http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/R...guid=315743338 -- Yahoo Group
*RawFeeding -- http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/r...guid=315743338 -- Yahoo Group

There are also a ton of books out there! As far as pier reviewed stuff goes, you aren't going to find a lot of positive stuff. But just keep in mind that there are forces at play when it comes to getting articles published. One of the vets husbands was a member of a pier review board for a very reputable journal...I am not sure which one - it was out of England. Anyway, he left the board after the journal published an article funded by the pharmaceutical companies that was very contradictory to what the journal generally stood for. It does happen (and more often then we would like to see), just keep your eyes wide open and remember that there is a lot of good "medicine/nutrition" research being done out there that is being done by "lay persons." Traditional Chinese medicine, homeopathy, applied kinesiology, holistic nutrition...just to name a few. There isn't a ton of pier reviewed documentation about it, but that doesn't men it's any less valid. Do your own research, trust your intuition and know that anything you do for your animals (with the best intentions and love) will be the best thing for your animals. Look at those dogs that get fed Old Roy! Some survive to ripe old ages, do you think that is well balanced or nutritionally complete? Would you eat it? Why feed something you wouldn't eat to an animal you love? Would you want to eat the same thing every day of your life fresh out of a bag, covered with oil and filled with junk fillers (it would be like eating potato chips every day of your life!). I trust my animals to communicate their needs to me. They can't talk, but they can turn their nose up at food and have. I have come to this mind set after many years of research. I feed my dogs everything I eat (except the no-no's). They get green smoothies, nuts, seeds, coconut, oils, veggies, fruits and supplements. Then they get their raw diet (I'm vegan most days so the only meat we buy is for them). Look in your area for raw food coops/buyers clubs. Connect with those people, talk to them. They will provide you with tons of information. There are also raw food breeders out there.

And just for the record, there have been HUGE recalls on bagged and canned pet foods in the past few years. The only recalls on prepared raw foods have been voluntary by the company. In this day and age, the chance of your pet dieing of kidney failure due to poisoned bagged food is probably higher then a home prepared diet killing your pet. They may not be getting AAFCO approved food, but chances are, if you are on here you are a bit "alternative" yourself and you don't feed you children irradiated spinach because there is a chance of the fresh stuff having salmonella. I have about 50 million other analogies but since I've already subjected you to an onslaught of opinions/information I will refrain!

I wasn't kidding when I said this form struck a chord. My journey with nutrition and eventually turning around my own health started with my animals. I am extremely passionate about animals/nutrition/health. Sorry for subjection everyone!

xo :

Wysteria

[gealach]

Originally Posted by Rikki Jean

What about regular meds (like heartworm)? Are those completely necessary? Are there natural methods that I should go for instead?

Congrats on starting the journey to get a dog!
My soapbox - Please please please don't neglect to give heartworm preventative. If I remember correctly, California has one of the highest numbers of reported cases. It is possible to treat it if caught early enough, but the treatment is tough on the dog, the treatment itself can be fatal to the dog, and it is no fun for the dog or the family. And, the treatment is very very expensive. Depending on the severity of the case, the dog has to be kept completely quiet for weeks to months at a time.

We adopted a heartworm-positive dog from a rescue a few months ago (We knew his situation before even meeting him and the rescue paid for all the treatment). I love our new boy and am very glad we got him. Luckily, his case was caught early and he has made a full recovery with no long-term effects. He started his heartworm treatment 4 months ago. He's been able to exercise as much as he/we want for about month now, but he is still building back up his stamina from all the time his activity had to be restricted.

The preventative is not that expensive and is well-tolerated in most dogs. The chance of your dog having to suffer through heartworm treatment is just not worth it.