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I need serious advice! - Page 4

post #61 of 131

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Edited by GoestoShow - 12/7/10 at 7:02am
post #62 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post
I'll be perfectly honest - I would not potentially sacrifice my child's well being for another child's. I just would not. I can accept that the nephew has had a hard life and is probably acting out something that has happened to him and that he's not "evil" and that he's probably a victim, I can even be compassionate (although if it had been my three year old then maybe not) but I can very much see how the OP would decide that having the two of them together was just not worth the chance of what might happen. This incident was in a room full of people. And this was not exploration between peers, which is a whole other thing.

I would protect MY child first, ESPECIALLY as the nephew seems to have a mom who is on top of the situation and really looking into his best interest. Some day WAY down the line when I felt my child was not quite so vulnerable, we might consider having them together again. Supervised.

My child is my priority and I am her primary protector.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened in your family. For everyone.
This exactly. We have a child molester in my family. I haven't seen him since he did it over 20 years ago. So I do drop them. I don't know what to do since this was a child, but my gut says to keep my kids safe first and foremost. I'm not totally sure what his age has to do with it. So he was eleven. What if he were 12? 13? does it really matter?
post #63 of 131
One brief point that may have been overlooked.

OP said her son told her they were "doing pee-pee kisses." Not "X was kissing my pee-pee" -- "we were doing pee-pee kisses." That implies to me that this was not a one time thing -- this was something that they have done repeatedly, often enough to give it a name. It also makes me wonder whether the nephew might have had OP's son "kiss" his penis as well.

OP has said that the boys were always supervised in the past. If they were always supervised in the past and they may have nonetheless played out sexual games multiple times, then I would agree with OP that she has no choice but to cut off contact entirely, at least in the short term, while she figures out what to do and how to do it. She has to know how pervasive this was.
post #64 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beene View Post
But see, you are misinterpreting people. No one is condoning what happened at all. What happened was NOT ok and no one said it was. The people saying perspective is necessary are saying this because, yes, while the boy is 11, he is a product of the flawed foster care system and has likely been abused himself. So, 11 and should know better does not apply to him because he is NOT a normal child. He is sick and abused himself. He needs love and patience to heal too. He is just a child, not a monster!

From the OP's son's perspective, he was playing a game with his cousin and friend, NOT an abuser. He, so far, does not seem to be showing any signs of trauma. So, why make the nephew out into the ABUSER, the BAD GUY, the guy whose FAULT it is? Why punish them BOTH by annihilating their friendship?It doesn't make any sense to make such a huge production out of something that needs attention from a counselor and supervision and vigilance from adults. In my opinion the drama would affect the children more than the original incident.
:::
post #65 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
First of all, I want to say I can't even imagine how sad/freaked out you are over this, as I would be as well. I think you have handled it very well.

I was told by a therapist one time that studies have shown that it is not sexual abuse/molestation in and of itself that causes long term damage to a person, but rather how it is handled or how they are treated. Children who are not believed, children who are in a situation of being scared to tell, children who are threatened and manipulated for a long time, children who are made to feel ashamed - these are the ones who end up dealing with serious repurcussions. Children who experienced a one time, non violent incident, and were immediately believed and protected by their parents (or adults in charge) go on to have no discernable effects from the situation.

Now, I don't have any personal experience with this, but it made sense to me. As scary as this is for you, it sounds like he will be fine.

My main question is: What is happening in regards to future contact with his cousin? I'm not insinuating that they should never see each other again, although that may be one answer, but how you and your sister feel about it and agree to deal with it, and how it's explained to your son. This kind of stuff can really put a strain on family relationships.
I believe this to be true. I was fondled by a playground attendant when I was in elementary school, we weren't even out of the school parking lot when I told my mom, and she instantly went to the cops. She made sure I went to the rape crisis center that week and started talking to someone about it. The school didn't believe the story and refused to fire the man. My mom would not let up and had everyone involved. Finally the school fired him and the rape crisis center came in and taught good and bad touching to all the classes. I have never felt an ounce of shame, embarrassment or guilt. I never think about it and actually forget that I was ever "victimized".
post #66 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetling View Post
This exactly. We have a child molester in my family. I haven't seen him since he did it over 20 years ago. So I do drop them. I don't know what to do since this was a child, but my gut says to keep my kids safe first and foremost. I'm not totally sure what his age has to do with it. So he was eleven. What if he were 12? 13? does it really matter?
I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.
post #67 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakah View Post
I believe this to be true. I was fondled by a playground attendant when I was in elementary school, we weren't even out of the school parking lot when I told my mom, and she instantly went to the cops. She made sure I went to the rape crisis center that week and started talking to someone about it. The school didn't believe the story and refused to fire the man. My mom would not let up and had everyone involved. Finally the school fired him and the rape crisis center came in and taught good and bad touching to all the classes. I have never felt an ounce of shame, embarrassment or guilt. I never think about it and actually forget that I was ever "victimized".
Your mom is awesome! And it is incredible that the school didn't believe and wouldn't fire him, but again your mom is awesome for not letting up.

OP is just as awesome, as is her sister. Both have responded immediately and amazingly, and OP made sure her son didn't feel he'd done anything wrong.
post #68 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dov'sMom View Post
OP said her son told her they were "doing pee-pee kisses." Not "X was kissing my pee-pee" -- "we were doing pee-pee kisses." That implies to me that this was not a one time thing -- this was something that they have done repeatedly, often enough to give it a name.
I have a lot of thoughts about this situation, which I'm not going to get into. I already know I'll do a very poor job of expressing them and will wind up sounding like I'm saying something completely different than I meant. However, I don't get this from"pee-pee kisses" at all. DS2 is far more likely to say "nose kisses" or "toe kisses" or "elbow kisses" than to say "kissing her/my nose/toes/elbow". It's not because he's naming a regular occurrence - it's just the way he expresses things. He has, in fact, referred to "penis kisses" (and "bum kisses") a couple of times, when on one of his potty humour sprees.

This is an awful situation, and it's obviously possible that it's happened before, but the term "pee-pee kisses" isn't really indicative of anything, imo.

I do wonder what's going on with the nephew, I've never dealt with an abuser who would have dared a venue as non-secure as a fort in the middle of the room.
post #69 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by LROM View Post
I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.
I'm not sure exactly what you think I said, what I will try one more time to say that trying to foster a relationship between them is, to me, possibly sacrificing my child's well being for another's. I'm not saying anyone here said that the 11 year old is more important, I'm saying that TO ME, having them continue to see each other would involve the possibility of something further happening to my child or his resenting me later or feeling unloved because I didn't end contact with this older child. I didn't say anyone here said forget the little one, the older child is more important. I'm saying that all the emphasis on continuing their relationship for the sake of the older child could harm the younger one and that some of us could see that as putting the younger in harm's way for the sake of the older. I would not do that to my child.

I don't want to go back and pick on anyone in particular, but if you go back and read what everyone has said, the OP has been accused of being the one messing up the family if she keeps her son away from the older child and she's been told that the only one REALLY hurting is the nephew. There's a lot of emphasis on not making the nephew "feel like a bad kid" but as I said, his mom is there to help him process that. The op can only be held responsible for HER child. As much as I have sympathy for a child who has had a hard time, the reasons he may have done what he did do not negate the effects of what he's done.
post #70 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post
I'll be perfectly honest - I would not potentially sacrifice my child's well being for another child's. I just would not. I can accept that the nephew has had a hard life and is probably acting out something that has happened to him and that he's not "evil" and that he's probably a victim, I can even be compassionate (although if it had been my three year old then maybe not) but I can very much see how the OP would decide that having the two of them together was just not worth the chance of what might happen. This incident was in a room full of people. And this was not exploration between peers, which is a whole other thing.

I would protect MY child first, ESPECIALLY as the nephew seems to have a mom who is on top of the situation and really looking into his best interest. Some day WAY down the line when I felt my child was not quite so vulnerable, we might consider having them together again. Supervised.

My child is my priority and I am her primary protector.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened in your family. For everyone.
It's not what I think you said, it's what you actually said above. I'm just pointing out that no one prior to your post said that her child shouldn't be protected first and that needed to be clear, since others have now picked up that quote.

And no one has said that the nephew's history negates his current action to OPs son.

It's already such a sticky conversation, just trying to point out that on some of these key things there is actually NO disagreement. That still leaves plenty of hard stuff that we do not all agree on, which is fine. But let's not get rankled about things that actually no one thinks in the first place.
post #71 of 131

Real life cases *sorry long*

Quote:
Originally Posted by knucklehead View Post
My sister is beside herself and is making no excuses whatsoever. She herself contacted social services to let them know and is having an emergency meeting with his psychiatrist. She is disgusted by this and crushed. Everything that has been poured into my nephew has been a waste. I feel horrible for my sister. She simultaeously loves him and is so tired and repulsed by him. I don't know what this is going to do to our family. Nothing is ever going to be the same. I never want to look at my nephew again and my children will never be around him. I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my son why he never sees his cousin anymore. He is used to seeing him at least once a week. He still asks for his cat that ran away over a year ago! What do I tell him? I think of holidays, birthdays etc., what the hell do we do now? Everything is ruined. Even if I get my son past the actual act how do I explain everything else? A death would be easier to explain than this. I'm at a loss.
I am so glad to hear that your sister is being proactive. Without going into more detail, I want to say that I have extensive experience on this type of thing and years of seeing how these things pan out over many years. Diffferent reactions, different results.

I want to say how very sorry I am that this has happened to your son. Your son will be more traumatized by being uprooted from losing all contact. However, if it is possible, probably preferable, and they can meet up at family gatherings when he is much older.

Case #1 One boy I know of had an experience at 3.5yo that was considered inoccuous. Same child has NEVER been abused at any other time. Same child has victimized several family members before it was discovered. Mother of boy NEVER made excuses. Did counseling. Child NEVER realized how serious and wrong such behavior was(because of age difference, lying, hiding behavior, etc), and that as he got older, he could be convicted of a felony. Therapists kept saying "experimental se*ual exploration". Boy had no psychological diagnosis whatsoever to give them a reason for the behavior. Grew up in stable and loving home. Boy didn't stop behavior until at 13yo he went to residential treatment. Boy is also a model citizen and academically doing well and very social, charismatic, hard worker. Homeschooled most of his life. Boy got into internet and saw things he shouldn't. Young man seems to pose no more threat, and has successful life.

Case #2 Boy molested sister of 5 years younger over a year or so. Family brushed under rug and never held boy responsible. Younger sister train wreck for all her life. Other boys in neighborhood considering having s*x with younger sisters perfectly normal, and "experimental play". Activity stopped. Had a pretty normal childhood in large family, although father had died young and when boy was 5yo. Never abused by ANYONE. Fast forward. Grown man molests 10-11yo daughter. Blames daughter for being "seduced". Is criminally charged and given 5 yrs probation, registers as s*x offender, and counseling. Counseling never had any effect. Fast forward. Older man uses internet to find victims. Was off of list because of lack of getting caught again. Man sitting in prison for trying to get young girls off of net to meet up, ran off to Canada, and is serving more time.

Case #3 Teenage boy is socially inept. Reads all the time, and is an introvert. "Experiments" with foster sister 3 yrs younger who is soon to be adopted. Activity is stopped by girl. Both grow up to have their own families, and everything seems pretty normal. Man is very protective of his children. Woman is very protective of her children.

Case #4 Special needs uncle is found in closet with 3 and 4yo niece and nephew. Found by older brother. Nothing done. Seems innocuous to children who later "experiment" on much younger nephew/nieces. Same uncle moves in with lady with children. Inappropriate fondling with those children. Given jail time and probation. Does not have contact with any children anymore.

There are other "cases" that I can think of, but won't go into all of it here. I think that your sister is handling this right. But, unfortunately, the state will try anything to brush it under the rug to avoid labeling a child a s*x offender. She will have to PUSH for services, and she SHOULD. (not for a label though) This type of thing tends to run in bio families, and the boy may not even know WHY he is doing these things. I think a lot of the stuff they purport as "continuing the cycle" may only be coincidence. A boy is molested is thought to molest. However, many of the cases I have seen, the child was never molested, not by definition. There may have been a trigger; like seeing p*rn, s*x ed class, etc. There are cases where the boy/man had a relative that they never had contact with, who also was never molested, that had a compulsion to molest. Maybe the molestation took place before their memories could form, like before 4-5yo, the time that ppl think that it is "innocuous" and not important to do counseling or follow up.

I am not saying that the person victimizing others is not to be blamed. I don't think we can fully blame all of them either. I think that they have a sin issue that needs to be dealt with. I believe that the earlier the intervention, and CONTINUED intervention, the better.

To be the mother of such boys/men is such a burden. Your sister needs your love and care, even if it means you meet up when the kids are with their fathers. Don't alleniate your family entirely, please. To have a child that you have to watch like a hawk and that already has issues has to be so hard for her. She has chosen to adopt this boy, and although the state would take him back if she chose to do so, I am sure she couldn't bare to do that. She will be his best advocate and advocates of other children too. And, hopefully, with her intervention (and your love towards the nephew), he will grow up to be a stable young man.

And, TBH, in order to prevent this happening to others, you will have to watch your own son carefully, so that another mother won't be in your shoes someday. Having a happy and stable family does not make your son immune to the consequences of this. Being young, he will not know WHY he acts out the same on someone else, but he may anyway. It is sad and unfortunate, that this was not your fault, but yet you will have to live life differently than you would have otherwise. This last part is JMHO. I don't think that a victim should be considered a possible perp in the future. But, unfortunately, it happens all that often, moreso when they are so young and don't remember the incident or any hurtful feelings against it. And, to not treat it proactively, makes the same thing happen over and again.

Please no flaming or criticizing my advice. I hesitated to add the last paragraph, but I think it is important. Kymberli
post #72 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I do wonder what's going on with the nephew, I've never dealt with an abuser who would have dared a venue as non-secure as a fort in the middle of the room.
Exactly. Abusers are smart about it, and would never do something in a venue where they were so sure to be caught. A child would, but not an abuser.

I know the age gap is huge, but the nephew's past of being in the foster system and his social awkwardness makes him so much more a child than "11yo" can describe. It's about social age, NOT biological age. If this were a "developmentally disabled" child, it would be a totally different story for many of the posters here - and I really think that he should be treated as such and given the benefit of reconciliation at some point. Not now, not soon, but after counseling on EVERYONE's part and once time has healed some of the wounds.
post #73 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by LROM View Post
I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.
I read the whole thread. I still think what I wrote. I think the nephew needs help, no doubt. But I also would not ever put my kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again.
post #74 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwlady View Post

Case #1 One boy I know of had an experience at 3.5yo that was considered inoccuous. Same child has NEVER been abused at any other time. Same child has victimized several family members before it was discovered. Mother of boy NEVER made excuses. .......

Case #2 Boy molested sister of 5 years younger over a year or so. Family brushed under rug and never held boy responsible. Younger sister train wreck for all her life. Other boys in neighborhood considering having s*x with younger sisters perfectly normal, and "experimental play". Activity stopped. Had a pretty normal childhood in large family, although father had died young and when boy was 5yo. Never abused by ANYONE. .......
Your examples show how many different shapes/forms abuse can take.

Just wondering - given the often invisible and hidden nature of sexual abuse, how does anyone know for sure that in the above 2 cases where you say there "NEVER" any other abuse incident... how can anyone be certain there was no other prior abuse?
post #75 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you think I said, what I will try one more time to say that trying to foster a relationship between them is, to me, possibly sacrificing my child's well being for another's. I'm not saying anyone here said that the 11 year old is more important, I'm saying that TO ME, having them continue to see each other would involve the possibility of something further happening to my child or his resenting me later or feeling unloved because I didn't end contact with this older child. I didn't say anyone here said forget the little one, the older child is more important. I'm saying that all the emphasis on continuing their relationship for the sake of the older child could harm the younger one and that some of us could see that as putting the younger in harm's way for the sake of the older. I would not do that to my child.

I don't want to go back and pick on anyone in particular, but if you go back and read what everyone has said, the OP has been accused of being the one messing up the family if she keeps her son away from the older child and she's been told that the only one REALLY hurting is the nephew. There's a lot of emphasis on not making the nephew "feel like a bad kid" but as I said, his mom is there to help him process that. The op can only be held responsible for HER child. As much as I have sympathy for a child who has had a hard time, the reasons he may have done what he did do not negate the effects of what he's done.
I totally agree with this too.
post #76 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
Exactly. Abusers are smart about it, and would never do something in a venue where they were so sure to be caught. A child would, but not an abuser.
That's actually not true. Kids have been molested while sitting on the perpetrator's lap in the room with others (or 'tickled' etc). And the nephew wasn't molesting op's son in plain site anyway.
post #77 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetling View Post
I read the whole thread. I still think what I wrote. I think the nephew needs help, no doubt. But I also would not ever put my kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again.
That thought makes me really sad for that poor boy. 11 years old, and he's had his one strike. He's out. Regardless of the help he gets.

You can still have contact with him without putting your kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again. You can have them play together - but this time, no forts or alone time allowed.

Those of us who seem to be "putting the nephew first" are just advocating to not decide now, in the heat of the moment, to cut this part of her family off. To just keep the option open.
post #78 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate View Post
That thought makes me really sad for that poor boy. 11 years old, and he's had his one strike. He's out. Regardless of the help he gets.

You can still have contact with him without putting your kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again. You can have them play together - but this time, no forts or alone time allowed.

Those of us who seem to be "putting the nephew first" are just advocating to not decide now, in the heat of the moment, to cut this part of her family off. To just keep the option open.
Okay - and I was there when the abuser in my family molested my cousin (cousin to cousin - older boy was babysitting us) I know what it did to not only the girl who was actually abused but to the rest of us that were there. I choose to not knowingly put my kids into a situation like that. What does that say to the victim? (though there are those arguing that the 3 year old is not a victim, what if he changes his mind one day?) If the kids were closer in age and it was a normal exploration kind of thing I could see it, but I can't in this situation. I don't know either kid. I'm going off of what the OP has said and my own personal experiences.
post #79 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by neetling View Post
Okay - and I was there when the abuser in my family molested my cousin (cousin to cousin - older boy was babysitting us) I know what it did to not only the girl who was actually abused but to the rest of us that were there. I choose to not knowingly put my kids into a situation like that. What does that say to the victim? (though there are those arguing that the 3 year old is not a victim, what if he changes his mind one day?) If the kids were closer in age and it was a normal exploration kind of thing I could see it, but I can't in this situation. I don't know either kid. I'm going off of what the OP has said and my own personal experiences.
I agree. And we do not know if that was the first incident of molestation either (of the op's son or other children).
post #80 of 131
Neetling it sounds like in your situation all those kids were unsupervised. I think everyone who's mentioned hoping OP will one day open to maybe still allowing her son (who she says herself loves her nephew) to still be able to see him sometimes has said "SUPERVISED".

Supervision is clearly and obviously key to any future relationship, and OP herself was already thinking that and that's why she looked in. "Playing tent" seemed harmless at the time, but now we know it wasn't.

All some of us are saying is, if the cousins really value each other and OPs son will have a hard time never seeing his cousin again, and if it's possible to have constant adult supervision at all times, maybe that will be best for everyone in the future. But only if there's constant supervision!

No one... no one wants OPs son to be mistreated again. But there's some room between "they never see each other again" and "leave them in a room alone totally unsupervised".
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