Help with old argument; "no vaccinating has brought long ago died out virus' back"

[Mama_2_Boy]

I do not want to cause a heated debate here, but i'm getting into one of my own. I am not totally against vaccines, but I am very selective and try to do as much research as possible. A family member is always giving me a hard time for what choices we have made with our son. He has indicated that because of people like me..virus's that were long ago irradicated are now coming back in strong numbers like in places like London. Is this true?

[CallMeMommy]

First I'd ask exactly which viruses are coming back. Bet they can't name them.

[chaoticzenmom]

apparently they weren't eradicated Ask him how long it's been since he had his shots? Is he sure that he's immune to these things. Adults are very undervaccinated and if there's a blame somewhere, undervaccinated adults are right there with the kids as far as blame goes. Is he aware that vaccines need to be boosted every 10 years? Has he had his boosters? So, I'd probably respond with "When was the last time you had your booster shots?"

I've learned to never answer questions. I always answer even the smallest question with a question. It drives my husband batty, but it's so great when it comes to dealing with annoying people. It's so automatic I can't even help it now.LOL

[chaoticzenmom]

Other responses would be "What diseases?" as was previously suggested, "Where did you read that?" or "Actually, hygiene has done more for eradicating diseases than vaccines" (know your source, there are charts everywhere),
"Is that so?" then change the subject.

Also, many of these diseases that are coming back are good! Chicken pox and measles may have an important function in the child's immune system. It's always been a popular thought, but I'm not sure if it's been researched. The best way to prevent these diseases in old people is to let children get the actual disease so that they are always immune. If you think about it...a huge number of 20 year olds are going to have waning chicken pox immunity since it's unlikely they'll go off and get boosters. That's going to suck when they get it as an older adult, rather than when they should have had it naturally.

Yeah, it's not good for polio to come back, but hygiene worked on Polio before the vaccine was invented. It was already on the decline (again, you can find the charts online).

[EVC]

.virus's that were long ago irradicated are now coming back in strong numbers like in places like London.

If he wants to make these claims, ask him to PROVE his allegations. The burden of proof is on HIM, not you.

But if you want to give him some food for thought:

My guess is that he's talking about measles? Ask him to prove that it is the result of the unvax'ed and not the result of a vax'ed person shedding (as the mmr is a live virus which does shed).

If he is talking about pertussis, ask him if he realizes that the vaccine does not prevent transmission and therefore quite often vax'ed people are the carriers of the disease.

If he mentions polio ask him if he read the recent news story on polio in Nigeria where it is the oral polio vaccine is causing the emergence of a new mutated strain of polio. And as with the MMR, the oral polio vaccine used in much of the world, is live and therefore sheds and can CAUSE transmission of the disease.


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[Mama_2_Boy]

I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the virus', but he did name a few. So what I am reading here, is that the reason that old virus' that were reduced by vaccine are now coming back due to improper hygiene?

[Mama_2_Boy]

Originally Posted by EVC

If he wants to make these claims, ask him to PROVE his allegations. The burden of proof is on HIM, not you.

But if you want to give him some food for thought:

My guess is that he's talking about measles? Ask him to prove that it is the result of the unvax'ed and not the result of a vax'ed person shedding (as the mmr is a live virus which does shed).

If he is talking about pertussis, ask him if he realizes that the vaccine does not prevent transmission and therefore quite often vax'ed people are the carriers of the disease.

If he mentions polio ask him if he read the recent news story on polio in Nigeria where it is the oral polio vaccine is causing the emergence of a new mutated strain of polio. And as with the MMR, the oral polio vaccine used in much of the world, is live and therefore sheds and can CAUSE transmission of the disease.


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This is actually a very good point and I will raise it for the next conversation (because it ultimatley always comes up). He travels alot so he is always talking about vaccines. He is going south this winter and is going to get the hep shot because he feels this will protect him.

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy

He is going south this winter and is going to get the hep shot because he feels this will protect him.

Is he going south for promiscuous sex and intervenous drug use? What does he think this is going to protect hem from?

[ZoeyZoo]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

Is he going south for promiscuous sex and intervenous drug use? What does he think this is going to protect hem from?

I think the OP was talking about the HepA vax; not HepB. I know it is often recommended for people traveling to places like Mexico.

[chaoticzenmom]

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy

I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the virus', but he did name a few. So what I am reading here, is that the reason that old virus' that were reduced by vaccine are now coming back due to improper hygiene?

No, but many argue that Polio was eradicated because of the vaccine and the vaccine alone. But looking at the disease rates, it was already on the decline before the vaccine was available.

Many people say that diseases are coming back. I don't now if it's true. Communication is now better, so we could just be hearing more about them when they're just as uncommon as always. I'm sure that some diseases are becoming more prevelent though. It's a mix...some truth, some hype.

It's not all bad for some of them to come back. I wouldn't want Pertussis, but at the same time, the vaccine is not a safe vaccine. It's highly reactive and can cause harm. I'll take my chances with the disease, although, I'd rather we not get it. I'm ok with Measles and chicken pox coming back. I think it's really dangerous that kids aren't able to get those as children anymore.

I'll go see if I can find the charts.

[chaoticzenmom]

This site explains that getting the dtap vaccine may actually contribute to your susceptibility to polio.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17037363/T...d-Consequences

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/polio.htm This may be a biased site, but it shows the graphs and the sources for the information.

Vaccines of course, have done a lot to lower incidences and when we stop vaccinating, it's natural for the disease to come back. But with proper care, hygeine and a strong immune system, the odds are in our favor.

[Mama_2_Boy]

Originally Posted by ZoeyZoo

I think the OP was talking about the HepA vax; not HepB. I know it is often recommended for people traveling to places like Mexico.

Yes this is correct. It is said that HepA can come from poor water conditions, and that translates to poor ice (in the drinks)...but the water being the bigger concern because you can avoid ice beverages.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Mama_2_Boy

Yes this is correct. It is said that HepA can come from poor water conditions, and that translates to poor ice (in the drinks)...but the water being the bigger concern because you can avoid ice beverages.

You can also drink bottled water. I have traveled the world...many third world countries.... and have never had the Hep A vax. IMO as long as one is sensible and take precautions, than they would be fine.

[Mama_2_Boy]

Thank you for all the wealth of information and replies - this is most helpful!!

[Pirogi]

Originally Posted by Marnica

You can also drink bottled water. I have traveled the world...many third world countries.... and have never had the Hep A vax. IMO as long as one is sensible and take precautions, than they would be fine.

I dunno about Mexico, but in eastern Europe where my husband is from, Hep A is one of the recommended vaccinations if you are going to travel there. There are some areas where bottled water is not available, or where I wouldn't trust it even if it was. Also, Hep A can be transmitted via food handled by infected people with poor hygiene carrying the virus on their hands. Open-air markets are especially problematic.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Pirogi

I dunno about Mexico, but in eastern Europe where my husband is from, Hep A is one of the recommended vaccinations if you are going to travel there. There are some areas where bottled water is not available, or where I wouldn't trust it even if it was. Also, Hep A can be transmitted via food handled by infected people with poor hygiene carrying the virus on their hands. Open-air markets are especially problematic.

It's all about what type of risk one is willing to take. As I said I travelled in some very unhygienic places...ate the local food and did in fact drink the water in some of the places. Overall I took sensible precautions where I could. I was not vaccinated and did not get Hep A...some would say it was just lucky, but it was a risk I was willing to take over getting the vaccine.

[carriebft]

My response would simply be the facts. Yes, we know that vaccines have dramatically brought down the numbers of some diseases and we have examples of how low vaccination brings them back in certain areas. measles is definitely one of these; hard evidence demonstrates that, while the numbers were going down, they dropped to essentially near zero from hundreds of thousands of cases when the vaccine was introduced. We see that, in places of low vaccine uptake, there are outbreaks (examples: UK, recent outbreaks in Ireland, Norway, etc-- outbreaks in unvaccinated Steiner School students in Germany, we can go on)

But others are not as contagious or endemic so you aren't going to get a huge explosion with low vaccine rates: ie Polio in the western hemisphere.

Others you have the vaccine working pretty well but leading to possibly unwanted results. example: chicken pox is pretty effective vaccine in that everyone use to get it and now most do not; however, there is the troubling result of a shingles problem.

so it's not black and white argument, kwim?

[NoraB]

As I understand it, w/o vax, adults are normally exposed to childhood illnesses as the children around them are exposed. This functions as a natural immunity booster (and may reduce problems like shingles later in life...my own speculation from all that I've read). W/o a natural exposure, our own immunity may be wearing off too. That could be very serious in the near future. Of course, the gov and pharma would suggest adult boosters. The vax are different than the natural infections though...that just won't solve the problem for long. I do think we'll see some of these diseases coming back...but BECAUSE we've vax'd and not b/c ppl are starting not to vax. Viruses and bacteria can all mutate w/ astounding ease. Surely they can mutate so that the vax are no longer protective or perhaps they'll mutate so that the folks who've been vax'd are actually more susceptable (scary thought for me b/c I was given all the available vax as a child...w/ the lovely parting gift of autoimmunity issues). How many of the folk who believe that vax are the saviour of humankind stop and think about how childhood diseases may have functioned in human society. Instead of questioning whether they might have had a mostly symbiotic effect, the assumption is that they are worthless at the best and deadly at the worst. By losing the option for natural infection, what exactly have we lost?

I am not totally antivax, btw. I think it's possible that there are some situations where the benefits may outweight the risks (family history of a severe or deadly rxn to the disease, immuno compromise, etc). Still, Western Med doesn't focus on boosting natural immunity or building healthy and hygene. It treats the immune system like it does everything else, like an isolated machine that can be treated and manipulated at will w/ no effect on anything else. Sigh.

Another thought occurs to me as I write this...something about nature abhoring a vacuum. What will come to take the place of these illness...or are we already seeing them?

[Marnica]

Another thought occurs to me as I write this...something about nature abhoring a vacuum. What will come to take the place of these illness...or are we already seeing them?

Yes we are...MRSA for one...antibiotic resistant strains of just about everything. Modern medicine is trying to win a race against mother nature that it is doomed to fail. It will never win, it CANNOT win. It is NOT possible because nature is all about balance. You take something away, something else will take it's place, often times something much worse. Most diseases when left alone will evolve to be LESS virulent over time, not more, which is why most diseases were dying out before any vaccine was made. That is not to say that while the disease is mutating to bcome less virulent it won't do considerable damage along the way, but trying to alter this natural balance will only have negative consequencesa dn the race can only be run for so long until something disasterous happens. I believe we are approaching this threshhold rapidly.