What do you do when the limits are violated?

[crwilson]

I feel utterly ineffective when it comes to discipline. DD (2.5) does not listen to anything that I say. She's on the edge of being reasonable, but she's not quite there yet. I'd love some concrete suggestions about how to handle it when she crosses the very clear (at least to me!) limits that I set.

Here are a few examples:

When we go for walks, dd wants to walk on everyone's lawn and run into their yard to "say hi to the trees." This is cute to me, but I don't think that it's appropriate for her to be dashing through other people's yards, so I tell her that she needs to stay on the sidewalk. She won't do it. I repeat, at eye level, "we need to stay on the sidewalk." If she still refuses to do it, we go back inside. This means, though, that she's not getting the opportunity to walk outside, which I know that she enjoys.

Another example: She has a hard time going to sleep. At night, we do a long bedtime routine, and then it's lights off. I stay with her in her room. And she chatters literally for HOURS. Every night. I, of course, say "no talking," but she doesn't listen, and frankly I don't blame her. I have no idea what the natural consequence is for her continuing to talk other than that she doesn't get enough sleep and then is grumpy for the rest of the day. I have tried saying that I will not sit with her if she talks because it's sleepy time, but if I do actually leave, she cries and then I come back because I feel too badly. Then she starts talking again, and we repeat. Clearly it's not working, and I just get increasingly frustrated.

I just often feel like I ask her to do things and then when she doesn't do them, I'm at a loss at what to actually do about it. There are countless examples, but these two illustrate the point.

[Susan Kunkel]

For the talking at bedtime I would not talk back to her. I would be in the room but maybe reading a book. Could you take her to a park to walk?

[Scottishduffy]

I was a nanny for a little girl who would talk a lot at bedtime. I would always stay in the room with her, but she would try her best to keep talking to keep herself awake.

I would do her bedtime routine (brush teeth, potty, story) and then tuck her into bed. When i tucked her into bed i would tell her that i was going to stay with her until she fell asleep but that I would not talk anymore. Then enforce it. She tried very hard to keep talking. She would ask lots of questions, try to ask questions about preschool the next day. She would try to say she had to do certain things or needed to get a drink of water etc, etc, etc. When she first started to talk I would repeat once "It is time for bed, not time to talk". Then that would be my last communication. No restatements, no further interaction was given.

I stayed with her, but just refused to talk or interact with her in any way. If she tried to climb out of bed I would prevent her from doing so, but not speak. If the talking continues for more than 15 minutes (only did the first couple times) then I would repeat the one sentence " It is time for bed, not time to talk". She got very bored with this and eventually would just go to sleep. I would not answer any questions no matter how urgent she tried to make them sound. I just had my one sentence.

[One_Girl]

Can you have her hold your hand instead of going back inside. When my dd was this age I would just make hand holding a rule. We also went places where there was a lot of room to run and play, like the park. I agree with the Scottishduffy about bedtime. I also think you should try moving her bedtime back and shortening your bedtime routine so it is not so stimulating. She may be getting a second wind by having the bedtime routine prolonged.

[kiwiva]

My DD does the same things (she'll be 3 in 2 mos). When we are walking I insist she hold my hand and keep reminding of the rule. If she wants to let go of my hand, she is reminded of the rule and can walk on her own as long as she is not walking on lawns. I try to stay matter of fact, so that it doesn't become a battle of wills with her. DD has the choice of keeping off lawns or holding my hand. If neither works we go back to our house.

DD also talks at bedtime. I remind her to stop talking and go to sleep a few times, but when it continues I just stop responding. Most nights it doesn't go on for hours. If this were happening excessively with DD I would think either that she was overtired (thus the hyper effect) or not sleepy enough. Is this a possibility? If not, I would keep reminding of the routine. In our case I will tell DD now we will read x books and then it is time to go to sleep. I remind her before the last book and so she knows what is coming. I think it is pretty common for kids of this age to do this. I also practice deep breathing and try to disengage myself so I get less frustrated, but that doesn't always work for me.

I don't think these examples show you are totally ineffective at discipline. Sounds like normal 2 yo behavior and not necessarily things that need to be stomped out now or forever more you will have no boundary control. I don't take it personally as a violation of limits, in these cases. The fact is that DD needs my help getting to sleep and needs a lot of reminders to stay on the road or sidewalk rather than run off into someone's more-interesting yard. A lot of discipline at this age, I think, is helping them stay on task, rather than giving them a boundary and expecting them to not cross it (even if it is clear to us).

[InMediasRes]

I'm going to be the odd mom out. DS is 2.5 and talks excessively at bedtime. We have a very short bedtime routine and then we chat. I used to let him lead, but I read somewhere that talking about what happened that day and about what will happen tomorrow helps kids let go of their day and go to sleep. I don't know how true it is, but it really changed things for us. I ask a few specific questions, but mostly, I just talk with him about whatever is on his mind. Then when he seems talked out, we just lie quietly. At that point I start telling him "time for sleep" if he does start chattering again.

I realise it's sorta inconsistent, but for DS, it seems like he needs to get all that mental stuff out. It got rid of the frustration for me too to not be fighting it.

[ChetMC]

For Us...

Our second DD would talk to keep herself awake. She'd chatter about nothing, or just make noise.

Two things that worked for us were reading aloud until she fell asleep, and when things got desperate, bedtime eventually degraded into walking with her in the stroller until she fell asleep. Basically, we had to find things that would keep DD still and quiet long enough to fall asleep because she wasn't capable of keeping herself still and quiet long enough to wind down. The "no interaction" approach didn't work in our case.

For the sidewalk, I would give the choices "on the sidewalk" or "in the house," with the chance to walk holding your hand in necessary. I agree with having other outdoor opportunities like the park so if she chooses to go in the house she doesn't give up on outdoor walks entirely.

In general though, when our kids were small and just couldn't be reasonable we avoided situations they couldn't handle. We'd construct or participate in environments where they could succeed and avoid situations that were bound to fail. I'm all for challenging kids, but there's a difference between challenge and setting them up for stuff they just can't do yet.

[crwilson]

Thank you for responding - just knowing that she's acting in an age appropriate way makes me feel better. I never thought I would be the person concerned about boundaries, but somehow in the midst of things, I forget what my objectives are and what is realistic to expect of a very small child. Sometimes I just want her to say, "Ok" when I tell her not to do something and then not do it.

Lately I feel like everything's become a battle of wills. I know, intellectually, that I need to set her up for success and that right now discipline is about guiding her with lots of repetition and consistency. In the moment, though, when we're walking, or she needs to brush her hair, or it's bedtime, or she wants to do something that she can't do and then throws a huge temper tantrum, I feel like I'm ineffective. It helps me to remember that it's not about me at all, really.

Sleeping is a major issue, and I'm not sure how to deal with it, honestly. It's just gotten worse and worse. I don't talk back to or interact with her once the lights are out, but she seems perfectly happy to talk to herself forever - ChetMC - what you said resonated. When things get desperate, we can get dd to sleep in the ergo still. She's gotten so big though that it's uncomfortable, and I'm pregnant so soon it's going to be completely impossible. But she does seem incapable of holding still long enough to actually fall asleep by herself, even if she's really tired.

It's all about perspective though - I get really frustrated when I view her as trying to push my boundaries, but if I realize that she's just doing something that is age appropriate, I feel like I can reiterate the boundaries without getting impatient. Does that make sense? I just wish that I could embrace the latter view all the time.

[LynnS6]

For me, this would be a case of 'pick your battles.'

For the walks, honestly, I'd let her go say hi to the trees. I really can't imagine anyone getting upset about a 2 year old walking on their lawn. When I was out for walks with ds, he loved to explore people's steps and gravel and lawns. I stayed on the sidewalk, so it was clear that I wasn't trespassing on their lawn, but people understood.

For bedtime, have you tried music as she falls asleep? Our dd used to talk herself to sleep too, which was somewhat of a problem when she moved in with her older brother. A music CD gave her the noise she craved, but in a way that she could fall asleep (usually -- there were days when she'd sit in bed and sing at the top of her lungs!). Dh and I would also sit in there with a book or our laptops and be really boring. I found it much easier to stay there while she wound down if I had something to do. If this was my 'chill out' time with a good book, I felt better. If I was lying on the floor waiting for her to fall asleep, I got very impatient.

The other thing to think about is whether she needs to go to bed EARLIER. I know that when my kids are too wound up, then they take forever to go to sleep. It sounds to me like your long bedtime routine might be too long or starting too late.

[readytobedone]

my DD is 27 months and just like this. i've decided it's normal for them not to do anything you say, and the best way of dealing with it is to try to prevent them having the opportunity to do the undesirable thing in the first place.

so like for the walking, i would tell her we can walk but the rule is we have to hold hands. that way you can keep her from darting off. if she continues to dash off, you can tell her you have to use a stroller next time.

the other thing, i would make sure you are frequently taking her somewhere she CAN run freely, like a park or public space, so this isn't an issue.

for bedtime, i totally feel you. the best thing we have implemented is the stop-gap solution of letting her fall asleep on the couch in the living room with us. that way we are not going crazy every night trying to get her to be quiet and go to bed, while we waste 1-2 hours.

i think the best thing is to repeat to yourself, "she is not supposed to do what i say" as needed, and try to view the times when she DOES do what you say (like DD the other day actually DID put the scissors down before jumping up and down, when i told her to! as a "bonus."

[InMediasRes]

A few more ideas for bedtime - you could try shortening her nap. For staying still, DS does this leg kicking thing that drives me batty. We talk about being as still as rocks or trees, etc., and when that fails, I give him a backrub, and he will totally stay still for that.

[woodchick]

For things like the sidewalk example I've found that a one word reminder of the rule tends to work better (for us) than the long drawn out version. So "Remember DD, we stay on the sidewalk when we go for walks and not on other people's lawns" becomes "Sidewalk!"

Maybe at bedtime you could structure the chatting a little- maybe DD gets to chose something to talk about and then Mama gets to choose. Then instead of "No Talking" try "Shhh. It's time for quiet"

Hope those help. Just some more things to choose from in your arsenal of tricks!

[heartmama]

Some children need neurological stimulation in order to fall asleep. Ds needed a white noise maker and/or audiotape books/music for many, many years. Silence woke him up.

For the sidewalk, she is showing you she cannot handle this expectation. Either take her out to places where she can run free, or hold hands from the start, or use the stroller.

[Polliwog]

Do people really have a problem with toddlers walking on lawns? I don't see it as a big deal. I do what Lynn used to do- stay on the sidewalk. My FD looks and then comes back.

[zebu]

My DS is the same way at bedtime. Sometimes he's talking about his day and sometimes he's talking just to stay awake. I love the idea of him feeling like he can talk with me about his day, so I encourage/allow that for about 5 minutes. It's gets the chatter out and then I tell him that it's time to lie down and be quiet. If he continues to chatter, I just repeat that line. It usually works. I'm thinking about making the time limit more visual for him and setting an alarm for 5 minutes, but I'd have to get an alarm clock for that. And as he gets older, and his days and thoughts get more complex, I would probably increase the 5 minute time limit.

so there's another idea.

Also wanted to add that I can totally relate with you. My DS is going through this pushing the limits stage, too, and the best way to get him to do something I don't want him to do is to tell him NOT to do it

[crwilson]

Thank you for all the ideas. I'm definitely guilty of using way too many words, i.e. "We don't walk on the grass because some people may not like us to do so. So let's walk on the sidewalk." I forget that "Sidewalk" would be far more effective.

It helps to hear that other children chatter at bedtime too. Somehow I imagine all other 2-year-olds in the world walking into their bedroom and drifting peacefully off to sleep. I think we may have happened upon a solution at our house. If I get her ready for bed and turn out the lights for about 15 minutes and let her chatter, and then dh comes in and I leave, she falls asleep. He says "Shhh" a few times, she whimpers, and then closes her eyes. Why I don't know, but it's a wonderful discovery. It would be perfect if I were sure that I could rely on dh every night....

[Storm Bride]

NM - new thread...

EDIT: Meant to start a new thread.

[mom2grrls]

I agree with a short routine and early bedtime oyu may just be missing her sleepy window and even if she talks awhile she'll still be in bed earlier