How to ease into a routine?

[oceanbaby]

There is no routine or schedule around here at all, and it's just not working. I'm always picking up, the kids' room is always a mess, there is no rhythm to meals or maintenance or anything. I'm not looking to get super structured, but I do want to start instituting a few basic things to our day. The problem is that whenever I try, ds2 (5yo) simply refuses to do what I ask him to do. If I let it go, ds1 (8yo) then complains that it's not fair that he's doing it if ds1 isn't.

I have tried letting them pick their own chores/responsbilities. I have let them create charts with me. I have asked them how they want to be reminded, etc. etc. Nothing works. This is the kind of routine I would like to see:

Morning:
Make bed
Brush teeth
Breakfast (although they often play first for a bit, which is fine)
A chore or two before or after breakfast - as simple as wiping the bathroom sink or watering the plants.

One or twice during day stop and take 5 minutes to put some toys away.

Evening/before bedtime:
Toys and books picked up off bedroom floor
Clear and wipe coffee table and dining room table.
Brush teeth (we already do this)

I don't feel like this is too much to ask, but I don't know how to get it going without major fighting. I don't want to to any sort of rewards/punishments. I have talked ad nauseum about how we have more free time to do fun things, that I have more energy to do fun things, that we all contribute to the house, that it's nicer for everyone, blah blah blah. But then the same thing happens: Whining, ds2 refusing, ds1 complaining it's not fair.

How do I institute this without such drama?

[yllek]

How is your stamina, mama, because imho it takes a while to change these kinds of behavioral dynamics. I'm going through something similar with my ds (5yo) who will be starting kindergarten in a couple of weeks. We are trying to get some routines in place now so that the transition to school/homeschool will be easier. We've also done charts which ds participated in designing, and as a family, we are not really into rewards/bribes/punishments.

Some other things I've done -

• ds is a future earth activist in the making ::, so I've totally appealed to his sense of environmentalism by saying that his room/our house in on planet Earth too, and everyone needs to do their part to keep their part of the planet clean, beautiful and safe. For my kid, this was probably his biggest motivator.
• I dug up a lot of picture books about independence. I think it helped him to see other kids' routines. I tried to make all the grooming stuff as easy as possible for him to do independently.
• Make cleaning a team event. We put on music and a timer. We get out all the fun cleaning supplies.
• I talk a lot about putting toys in their "right places" so they don't get lost or broken or stolen by his little sister or our puppy.
• This sounds punitive, but I swear, in our family, it's not. It's a system of managing misplaced stuff for everyone. I have a "put away basket," a large laundry basket. At the end of the day, or sometimes in the middle of the day, I just do a general sweep. Everything that is not in its right place is put in the basket, then the basket gets put away. It does not really come out until we get a chance to put everything away (not more than two or three days, usually just the next day). Any toys in this basket are essentially in lockdown, BUT.... My kids feel like their toys are safe and their whereabouts are known. I talk about it as a way of keeping our home functional and beautiful and safe. My kids know that toys need to be put away and this is an interim step to help them do it when the mess is just too overwhelming. Having said all that, my ds is pretty motivated to keep his toys out of that basket, because sometimes we just can't get to the basket for a couple of days.

Currently, ds is pretty excited about taking on new responsibilities. It very often helps that he gets to choose his cleaning activity. Lately, he has been wanting to take out the trash. He also loves to vacuum with the long wand attachment to suck up dust bunnies and such. Anything involving squirting a mild vinegar cleaning solution will stop playtime instantly. He comes running, asking "Can I help please?" When he was younger, dusting and sweeping was a fun activity. We would marvel at where all this dirt came from. Picking up toys is often the hardest task for him. Sometimes, I would pre-sort the mess, and let him scoop up all the space toys, then all the books, then fling the clothes into the laundry basket (two points!). That type of thing.

I figure if I invest a little energy into making these habits relatively fun and NOT make it a power struggle, things will be easier down the road. So far, this is working for us.

[sunnmama]

I'm unclear if you already have this routine, and want more participation from the kids, or if you do not have this routine and want to institute it with the kids' participation.

If you don't already have the routine, start it yourself. That is how I make most household changes; I do it, and they tend to follow (not immediately, but once it becomes part of the fabric of our day). So, everything stops before lunch while toys get picked up and small chores get done....and then lunch. Nothing happens after lunch until the table is cleaned up and the table cloth replaced. Etc.

It helps to have something they are looking forward to after the chores are done (going outside after lunch, reading bedtime stories together after tidying and brushing teeth). I don't make it a battle, but simply state my expectations and lead by example. If they refuse, I repeat my expectation but don't get into a battle (do it myself). If they whine, I ignore. If they complain about the other sibling, I say "I asked you to pick up these toys".

[oceanbaby]

We currently have no routine. I do pretty much all the cleaning, and trying to get the kids involved is like pulling teeth. I want to figure out a way to ease into this that doesn't involve yelling or punishments/rewards. Me just doing it and hoping they will join in is not something I expect to work. For instance, I have always picked their books up off the floor and put them back into the bookcase. I have been encouraging/asking them to do this since I can remember, and it is still a fight every single time. If I refuse to do it, the books just pile up, to the point where we it's just a big mess. Plus, it's not acceptable to me for them to treat the books that way.

I guess I don't think that I should have to come up with a fun activity every day just to get them to do some basic stuff around the house. But between my older son arguing with me about every single thing I ask him to do, and my younger son just being quietly obstinate, I have no idea how to go about this.

[yllek]

But why not try to make it fun?

Perhaps another thing to try is to have a discussion with them at a time when they are feeling relaxed and you don't expect them to do something immediately? A family meeting over Saturday morning breakfast might work. Personally, I would ask my kids to choose how they would like to participate in making our home a nicer place, and also ask how they would like to be reminded about their daily grooming. Give them some time to think about their response. Maybe go over the plan during dinner.

Changing someone else's behavior either involves punishments, rewards, persuasion, changing their environment or changing your own behavior. Since the first two options are off the table, what can happen among the other choices?

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I guess I don't think that I should have to come up with a fun activity every day just to get them to do some basic stuff around the house. .

That isn't quite what I meant. More like....there are already fun things we do thoughout the day (that is part of our loose routine....we always have some outdoor time, some reading time, a snack time, etc), and it helps if we do the clean ups immediately before these fun things. I'm not super organized, but I can still use this trick. It can be dc asking "Can I have some popcorn?" and me saying "Sure! Let's get these toys picked up and then we'll make some."

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

That isn't quite what I meant. More like....there are already fun things we do thoughout the day (that is part of our loose routine....we always have some outdoor time, some reading time, a snack time, etc), and it helps if we do the clean ups immediately before these fun things. I'm not super organized, but I can still use this trick. It can be dc asking "Can I have some popcorn?" and me saying "Sure! Let's get these toys picked up and then we'll make some."

Yeah, but then they just say "no, I don't want to pick up." But then if I withhold the popcorn until they pick up, it's now turned into a punishment/reward thing, as well as an argument.

But why not try to make it fun?

Perhaps another thing to try is to have a discussion with them at a time when they are feeling relaxed and you don't expect them to do something immediately? A family meeting over Saturday morning breakfast might work. Personally, I would ask my kids to choose how they would like to participate in making our home a nicer place, and also ask how they would like to be reminded about their daily grooming. Give them some time to think about their response. Maybe go over the plan during dinner.

I've tried this. We've had the talks during relaxed times. I've asked them what they want their responsibilities to be. They are happy to participate with this - they like to draw up the charts and pick out pictures to put on them, etc. But then they refuse to do it.

As far as making it fun - I have mixed feelings about this. I definitely am upbeat and pleasant. I put on music. But there are two problems with the "make it a game" aspect. First is that I don't always have the energy or time for this, and don't think that I should have to make everything a game. I think my children should be more responsible taking care of their environment. The fact that they aren't is entirely my fault. I should have started this from the absolute beginning, but I missed the boat and now I am desperately trying to find our way back.

The other problem with the "make it a game" is the intensity of my older son. If I make it a game, I will be playing that game for the next hour. It will have multiple variations, rules will be implemented, he will want to do it over and over. After we have picked up the toys, he will want to dump them all out and do it again. And then when I finally want to move on, he is begging me to do it some more, please please please. It's not something I have a good experience with.

I guess there's not a whole lot of options. I'm thinking I'm left with some sort of gentle motivation/reward aspect. If we all get our chores done each week, we pick a special activity or something. I don't like this, and it goes against my general nature, but our current set up isn't working.

[jecombs]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Yeah, but then they just say "no, I don't want to pick up." But then if I withhold the popcorn until they pick up, it's now turned into a punishment/reward thing, as well as an argument.

I think it might help you to re-frame your thinking a bit. Instead of thinking "reward/punishment" try thinking "natural and logical consequence". Everything we do as adults has a natural and (mostly) logical consequence, both positive and negative. If I decide I don't want to put gas in my car when it's on E, my consquence comes when the car stalls-out and I have to walk. If I make a fabulous dinner for my family, the consequence is usually lots of compliments and offers to clean-up the kitchen from my DH. Everything in life has consequences and sheilding your children from the consequences is not going to help them as the grow-up.

ITA with the pp who suggested that the family does not move on to the next activity until chores/clean-up has been completed. For my DD that usually means we stop going outside, reading stories, or watching her (1) TV program of the day. If the living room is trashed, we simply don't move-on until it is tidy. My DD, even though she is only 2, has her little chores around the house and she does not mind doing them. She puts all her dirty clothes and bibs (after meals) in her hamper and she picks up trash in the house/yard and puts it in the trashcan. We also clean up her toys from one play activity before we move to the next activity (all legos get put away before we get out the baby dolls). I think it gives her a sense of accomplishment and responsibility. She doesn't always want to comply, but will usually join me in clean-up activities after I have firmly stated that we won't go outside or read her book until her toys are put away. Sometimes I really have to guide her by putting toys into her hands and moving her arm to drop it in the appropriate bin, but this is how she learns about cleaning-up and she feels that I am helping her.

It can be so hard some days and I totally understand why you just feel like "doing it yourself" just so you don't have to listen to all the complaining and whining! But you have to stand your ground. Sometimes I have really remind myself that I am doing this to teach DD the value of a neat, tidy environment. If I don't teach her these things, who will?

[oceanbaby]

Originally Posted by jecombs

I think it might help you to re-frame your thinking a bit. Instead of thinking "reward/punishment" try thinking "natural and logical consequence". Everything we do as adults has a natural and (mostly) logical consequence, both positive and negative. If I decide I don't want to put gas in my car when it's on E, my consquence comes when the car stalls-out and I have to walk. If I make a fabulous dinner for my family, the consequence is usually lots of compliments and offers to clean-up the kitchen from my DH. Everything in life has consequences and sheilding your children from the consequences is not going to help them as the grow-up.

ITA with the pp who suggested that the family does not move on to the next activity until chores/clean-up has been completed. For my DD that usually means we stop going outside, reading stories, or watching her (1) TV program of the day. If the living room is trashed, we simply don't move-on until it is tidy. My DD, even though she is only 2, has her little chores around the house and she does not mind doing them. She puts all her dirty clothes and bibs (after meals) in her hamper and she picks up trash in the house/yard and puts it in the trashcan. We also clean up her toys from one play activity before we move to the next activity (all legos get put away before we get out the baby dolls). I think it gives her a sense of accomplishment and responsibility. She doesn't always want to comply, but will usually join me in clean-up activities after I have firmly stated that we won't go outside or read her book until her toys are put away. Sometimes I really have to guide her by putting toys into her hands and moving her arm to drop it in the appropriate bin, but this is how she learns about cleaning-up and she feels that I am helping her.

It can be so hard some days and I totally understand why you just feel like "doing it yourself" just so you don't have to listen to all the complaining and whining! But you have to stand your ground. Sometimes I have really remind myself that I am doing this to teach DD the value of a neat, tidy environment. If I don't teach her these things, who will?

The consequence to not picking up after yourself is living in a trashy house. My kids don't mind that, but I do.

With two, not moving on to the next activity is not always possible. Ds2 is playing with the Legos. It's time to make cookies, which I told them we would do today. Ds2 refuses to pick up the Legos. I could say we're not baking cookies until he does, but then ds1 is upset. He picked up his toys, and he wants to bake cookies. Do I refuse ds2 entry into the kitchen until he has picked up? These are the kind of ridiculous situations I find myself in.

Also, at 8 and 5yo, "we" don't get out the toys, they do. It's not feasible for me to have all the toys out of their reach. I would have to install 6foot high shelving all over the house, and then they would just chairs!

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Do I refuse ds2 entry into the kitchen until he has picked up?

A cheerful, firm "Quick pick up the legos, and then come back to help stir!" is fine. But firm is key.

I do have two kids. My 8 yo will clean up independently. My 2 yo obviously needs help. My 8 yo needed help at 5. I'd help the 5 yo, using playful parenting "I bet I can pick up more than you!". If the 8 yo complains, I have a stock answer "you needed help when you were little, too".

The consequence of not picking up is a trashed house and a frustrated mama. Frustrated mama doesn't bake around these parts

[yllek]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

As far as making it fun - I have mixed feelings about this. I definitely am upbeat and pleasant. I put on music. But there are two problems with the "make it a game" aspect. First is that I don't always have the energy or time for this, and don't think that I should have to make everything a game. I think my children should be more responsible taking care of their environment. The fact that they aren't is entirely my fault. I should have started this from the absolute beginning, but I missed the boat and now I am desperately trying to find our way back.

I guess for me, nagging (not that you nag!) or being resentful sucks far more energy out of me than coming up with some fun aspect to chores. I don't really make a game, with rules or points, just a playful attitude toward what would otherwise feel like drudgery for myself and my kids. I hope that they are getting the idea that bringing a positive attitude toward their responsibilities can help them to get the job done. Some folks can slog through; another option is to see that almost any task can be *intrinsically* interesting. That is why I try to make the chores themselves fun - not just what happens afterward, although that is totally part of our day too. I try to make the progression of activities move in a way that's logical. First grooming, then breakfast, then outside or free play time. Each activity sort of depends on the one before, but it's not like breakfast is some kind of reward for getting dressed. One just isn't ready for breakfast until they are dressed, you know?

[J. Jones]

If kids seem really resistant to the basic tasks of putting away toys and things, it's often because of all the negative emotion that's been associated with it...fighting. Sometimes it helps to pull back and just work on modeling for awhile.

Maybe a week or two of seeing mom cheerfully jump into the chores, get it done quick, and then enjoy the results (without talking about it or trying to make a point), will be enough to restart the energy associated with the job.

Then transition by needing help. Assume their natural desire to participate and genuinely help - create a scenario like ... with your arms full of books call to one of the kids, "quick, these books are falling out of my hands, grab this stack for me please!"...give a natural "thanks" and let them move on while you complete the job...The goal is to build the emotional habit that "helping" is easy and natural and not a big drama event.

No magic bullet - but at least breaking the sense of drudgery and compulsion is a good goal?

[Cheryl313]

I completely agree with your suggestion of "natural consequence". You are raising your children to be caring, responsible adults. That education starts from birth when you teach them how to trust and love by caring for their needs. As they get older you teach them about responsibility. I have a 10yr old and a 3yr old. They both started learning how to do the various activities of maintaining a household at the earliest age at which they were capable of doing it. For example, my 3yr old follows me around the house and wants to help put dishes in the dish washer and laundry in the dryer so those are her chores. She is expected to take her dish off the kitchen table, bring it to me to rinse and then put in in the dishwasher. When the dish washer is full she gets really mad if anyone else puts the soap in and turns it on, that is her "thing". My 10yr old, almost 11, has been responsible for loading the dishwasher after dinner for many years now, since his sister is starting to take on that responsibility and he is now older and taller he is now learning how to wash pots and pans. If I find a pot that is still dirty, he washes it again, it is not a punishment but a natural consquence and doing it poorly the first time. I have made it clear to him that some day he'll have his own house and he needs to know how to do these things properly. Could you imagine moving out of your parents house for the first time at the age of say 23 and overnight having to learn how to clean up after yourself, scrub floors, vacuum, wash dishes, cook, make beds, take out laundry, pay bills, balance a check book......and on and on. You can't learn all that overnight and by not teaching your children as much of that as possible over the course of 20 years you are doing a HUGE disservice to their adult selves, not to mention their future spouses.

I do not tolerate whining, complaining, or telling me no. I respect my children and I expect respect in return. Again, by doing so, I am teaching them how to live as responsible adults. No future boss will tolerate any such behavior. And I can tell you as a small business owner and employer, I have met people whose parents tolerated such behavior and as adults these people now think that this kind of behavior is ok. It takes these poor young adults a long time, a lot of failure, and a lot of soul searching to realize how they need to act to become responsible, respectful, respected, successful adults. I teach these things to my children by leading by example, talking to them, explaining things, giving examples, telling them no, telling them "that is not good behavior", and sometimes, when necessary, time out or grounding in the case of the older one. The need for time out and grounding in my house is very rare because my children know what is expected of them, I do not waiver in that, I am consistent in my rules and them respond positively.

In short, decide what you expect in your house, stand your ground and stay kind but firm. For older children, it will take a little time and yes, some struggle, but it will payoff, you'll get what you want, your children will benefit, and your house will be happy.

[J. Jones]

Cheryl313 your children sound lucky to have such a focused mother with high expectations!

[Enudely]

I am struggling with this as well. I'm about to move into a new house, and take a job being a nanny for twin 3 year olds. I'm hoping to use this transition to bring on more structure.

[savithny]

I'm not going to touch the theoretical side of whether you should or not and whether this is a natural consquence or not....

And I'll just say this: While I'm not a big fan of everything that comes out of Flylady's mouth (among other things, she's big on the "if you want it done, do it, and then everyone else will love it so much they will help keep it clean," which I don't agree with), I do agree with the most basic premise.

If you never have, go to Flylady.com and read about how she got started. She read that it takes 28 days to make a new habit. She picked 12 things she wanted to change about how she did things, and she started with the first one, committing to doing it daily for an entire month. By the end of the month, it was a habit, and she moved onto the next thing.

I'm not suggesting taking a year, but I think picking the area that you most want to add structure to and working on it first, and not worrying about the others until you've got the habit down, might be a good solution.

I haven't "done" flylady in years, and I never "did" flylady the way some do. But some of the habits I built have stuck, and have really helped our family. For example, our "evening routine." became that after dinner, we get up from the table and no one goes and sits down. Instead, we work together as a family and we clear the table, take care of the dishes, wipe down the counters and sweep the floor, and then go out and pick up our toys from the living room. The single commitment there was to just not sit down. There was (and still is) a fair bit of prompting ("Do you see those legos? Could you take them to your room?")

[Starflower]

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