Horrible behavior on the way home!

[EnviroBecca]

I think I handled this pretty well as it was happening--somehow, despite raging PMS, I managed not to raise my voice except when EnviroKid was far away and I needed to so he could hear me!--but I'm wondering what is the appropriate consequence for this behavior after the fact or if I'm supposed to pretend it never happened and hope it won't happen again.

Two important things to know:

1. EnviroKid and I commute to his pre-school (he's there all day while I'm at work) by city bus, two busses each way. Going home, we have to walk a short distance from one bus route to the other across part of a university campus (Pittsburghers: around the Cathedral of Learning), crossing a busy street at each side. The bus rides typically are a pleasant time when I read to him or we talk together. It's possible usually for us to commute by car (although parking is a problem) or for EnviroDaddy to take him in the car, but this week our car is being repaired.

2. Our family rule for weeknight dinners is that, unless we have special plans which we finalize in the morning, EnviroDaddy starts making dinner at 6:45 and we start eating as soon as it's ready and EnviroKid and I are home. We typically get home between 6:45 and 7:15.

So, yesterday I arrived at school and had this conversation with EnviroKid:
ME: Hello!
KID: Are we going to the potluck now?
ME: The church potluck was yesterday, remember?
KID: Oh yeah. Where are we going today?
ME: Home.
KID: But you are wearing a fancy dress, so we must be going somewhere.
ME: I'm glad you like my dress [ordinary flowery dress which I can't recall ever wearing to a special occasion ] but we don't have any special plans; we're going home, and Daddy is making dinner.
KID: : I thought we had a special plan.
ME: You'd like to be doing something different tonight.
KID: Me and Dominic were doing magic tricks today...

We left school, and everything went normally on the first bus. In the area we cross between busses, there's a patio with benches around 3 sides, where EnviroKid likes to play this game: I go to the far corner and sit on the bench and pretend to be waiting for a train; he tells me which it is, the route number, and where I'm going. He portrays the train by running along all of the benches, jumping off, passing my stop while I squawk in indignation, then looping back to pick me up. Then I "ride" by walking right behind him down the 47 steps to the lower lawn, over to the street, and across the street at the walk signal which I must call a "train signal." I am pretty tired of this game after playing it for about two years, but he loves it, so I almost always agree to play. I think the only times I've refused altogether have been when we're running late to get someplace we need to arrive on time.

This time, I was playing the game but got frustrated when the train began to follow a track of ludicrously tight hairpin turns down the stone steps, which were puddled with rain and slippery tree blossoms. I was wearing my one good pair of leather shoes and didn't want to get them wet, and I was afraid of slipping. I didn't tell HIM not to zigzag like that; I just wouldn't do it myself but continued to follow pretty closely behind him. He got furious and demanded that we go back up the stairs and I do it correctly. I told him I would not and went on down the stairs to the next landing.

He ran across the flowerbed that's held up by a retaining wall above the first two flights of steps, to the corner of the wall that is 15-20 feet above the bottom of these steps made of granite or marble or whatever it is that looks fully prepared to crack a 4-year-old's skull, and stepped onto the top of the wall. Now, EnviroKid is extremely well-coordinated and has excellent balance, but still, I was terrified. I came back up the stairs, approached him slowly speaking gently, explained that standing over there would not convince me to play the game, and told him to come with me to the bus stop. After a while he took my hand and started to walk with me, but then he bolted back there. Repeated the whole thing.

We got down half the steps, but then he went back to whining that we had to go back and start the game again. When I refused, he began yanking on my dress, kicking my feet, and screaming. I told him firmly that this is not the way to get what you want, detached myself, and walked down the rest of the steps. This usually gets him to follow after a while because he hates being alone. However, this time he stayed up there howling, "MAMA!!!" so rather than provoke any of the passersby into calling 911, I went back up. As soon as he saw me, he took off running for the upper stairs. I grabbed him--"OW YOU'RE HURRRTING MEEE!!!" "When you hold still, it will not hurt."--and gave him a choice of walking with me or being carried. He began making the wordless, obnoxious noise I imagine a spoiled brat and a sick cat being put through a meat grinder together would make, and kicking me, so I grabbed him and carried him down the rest of the stairs.

"PUT MEE DOOWWWNN, NOOWWW!!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
"NO!! PUT ME DOWN!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
etc. Finally, as we neared the street,
"PUT ME DOWN!! I PROMISE TO WALK!!"
I put him down, and he immediately took off back toward the stairs. I grabbed him and said, "You broke your promise. I'm very disappointed in you." I carried him across the street and set him down there, at the corner of a large lawn with landscaping. It was 25 minutes since we got off the first bus one block away.

He immediately picked up two handfuls of mulch and threw them at me. I said, "Do not throw things at me." He ran away across the lawn. I walked as calmly as I could around the lawn, keeping an eye on him as he ran erratically in various directions for about 15 minutes. At one point he pretended to leap into traffic but actually ducked behind a big metal box (some kind of utility thing) and I knew that's where he was, but I didn't appreciate the maneuver or the spiteful look he gave me just before it, one bit! I started to tell him so when he came out, but he just ran away again.

Finally he said in a snippy tone, "We've probably missed five or sixty busses by now. Why don't we go to the bus stop?" I said, "Good idea!" and we went to the stop. He sat down on the bench, pulled someone's old chewing gum off the underside, and announced, " I am going to run away around the whole world collecting all the old gum!!" () I said, "That'll show ME! How many pieces of gum do you think you will find?" He speculated for a while and seemed to be feeling more peaceful.

But we were now waiting a while for a bus because it was later, when they run less frequently. EnviroKid demanded that I read to him. I explained that I'd like to, but I needed to watch for the bus and make sure the driver saw that we were waiting. (For some reason, many drivers act as if that stop isn't a stop and won't even slow down unless passengers are right on the curb looking undeniably interested in boarding.)

Several weeks ago, a large quantity of fine sand somehow got spilled across the sidewalk in front of the bus stop, and it hasn't been cleaned up. On dry, windy days, I've gotten sand in my eyes, which has been very painful since I wear hard contact lenses. Last night, EnviroKid picked up two handfuls of this sand and threw it at my face, announcing, "I'm going to get sand in your eyes!!" The sand, being damp, didn't get up that high. I grabbed EnviroKid and said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want. This is not a good time for reading. I will read to you on the bus." The moment I let go of him, he threw sand at my face again. I dragged him away from the sand and made him sit on the bench. Finally we got on a bus. The ride home was calm; I read to him.

The instant we got off the bus, EnviroKid said, "I want to have dinner in a restaurant." I said, "You behaved terribly in between busses. People who behave that way don't get taken to restaurants. Anyway, remember our family rule: We don't go to a restaurant on a school night unless we decided that in the morning. Daddy is making dinner for us." But I didn't get through any of those sentences without being interrupted by his shrieking. He kept on about that for a while and said, "If you won't take me to a restaurant, I'll tell Daddy about your bad behavior!" I said I would tell Daddy about HIS bad behavior, too, and we'd see what Daddy had to say. He said, "NO!!! ONLY I CAN TELL HIM!!" I said we'd both tell him, but he could go first. More shrieking.

We got home at 7:45. While EnviroDaddy reheated dinner, we both told our stories. Of course EnviroDaddy agreed that EnviroKid's behavior had been appalling and told him so, particularly emphasizing why we do not throw sand at anyone's eyes.

Bedtime went rather smoothly. I don't think EnviroKid was unusually tired, hungry, or otherwise needy on the way home. I can't figure out what went wrong, except that I didn't kowtow to every detail of his train game--I shouldn't have to do that!

I'm dreading the trip home today because I can't see what is the natural consequence of this behavior, either in the moment or later, except that I'm upset, and I know I'm not supposed to use my emotions to punish my child. So what can I do??

[PikkuMyy]

So I have a bunch of thoughts about this incident. Here they are in no particular order as I think of them:

1. From a behavioral perspective, you gave him many many many chances to run away, do what he wanted, act unsafely, etc. I'm not surprised that he kept acting this way once he got the chance.

2. After he clearly demonstrated an inability to act appropriate on the way to the bus stop, you should have helped him down there. At the very least, after the first time he broke away after you got him off the wall, you should have gone straight to the bus stop and either held him very firmly or picked him up so that he could not run away again. I keep my language very short and to the point in such instances: "That's a very dangerous place to climb. We're going to the bus stop now."

3. Again, there were quite a few other times to go straight to the bus stop but by trying to give him some control over the situation, this was delayed and he kept doing what he wanted to. He didn't want to go to the bus stop yet and managed to delay that for a LONG time - walking around the lawn while you followed him, climbing the wall, etc.

4. I would have made sure he sat with me on the bench the whole time while waiting for the bus. I might have made a general comment like "It took us a long time to get here, so we have to wait longer than we usually do." And when he asked about going out to eat, I would have not mentioned his behavior but just talked about the rule. Because the rule is in place whether he behaved badly or well in between buses. So it is only going to make him more upset.

5. When kids say things like "I'm going to tell Daddy about your behavior", they are trying to get you to respond, so I just say something like "OK." and nothing else. I'm not sure what purpose the "telling your sides of the story" serves unless the conversation is about what went wrong and what could go better next time.

So to answer your final question, when you pick him up today, I'd remind him that the commute home yesterday didn't go well for either of you and you'd like it to go better this time. Ask him to describe a better way to walk between buses. Really gauge his mood and his possible behavior before you start to go there so that you have a better idea of what to expect. When you are going to get off the first bus, remind him of the plan between buses. And then if you see any of the behavior starting, remind him very simply of the plan and help him to follow it. Don't let him do all of those behaviors again.

As for the train game, 2 years of that is a lot of precedent. I'm amazed you kept it going so long! I'm not surprised that he was so upset if he's used to doing it every time. So now you'll need to focus on how to fade it back so that he's not so set in that routine. Perhaps pick 1 day a week to do a different game on the way to the next bus and then slowly up that until you are mixing up what you do on the way to the bus. Remember that it's a game he invented when he was much younger and he can pay more complicated games now. You can do things like "I spy", make up songs, play a guessing game, etc. Plan it out the night before so that the next day he's been prepped to do the new game.

[BlueStateMama]

He DEMANDED that you go back and play his game according to his terms?

Then he threw mulch at you... and then threw sand at you....and then demanded to be taken to a restaurant...and then screamed at you. And THEN polished it off by threatening to tell his father about YOUR behavior?

At the last comment ("I'm telling Dad") my response would have been "knock yourself out, kiddo, I'm looking forward to discussing this chain of events with your father too."

I probably would have waited until we were home, and things had calmed down (and I would have had to take a personal time out - my DS would have been handed over to DH while I went in my room and screamed.) That night, I'd discuss the behavior, say that it was unacceptable. I'd explain that while Mama likes to play the train game, that there was a reason I couldn't (your shoes, etc.) I'd say that Mama playing the game is something we do for fun, but not some sort of absolute right that he has.


I'd discuss the dangers of running away and walking across a high wall.

As for the restaurant demands, my answer (at the time) would have been along the lines of "Are you kidding? You're running away from me, throwing mulch and sand at me, threatening to 'tell' on me, and generally acting out as much as a child possibly could have. I don't think so."

I'm pretty casual with my kids, though, although I have stopped short of saying things like, "Are you HIGH??? After THAT behavior you want me to take you out? Dude, what have you been smoking????"

I'm sorry you had such a rough time. I am sooooooo not a Dr Phil fan, but I do embrace the "you teach people how to treat you" concept. My next pick up would not be full of games and fun. I'd be pretty direct that I was very disappointed with the behavior the day before, and that playing games and goofing off is a privilege, not a right, and that being rude and not listening makes mama just want to get home, not engage and play.

I would never love withdraw - I give hugs and kisses in the aftermath of my kiddos acting out if they want them, but I don't think you should allow him to treat you like that. Just from your OP, it sounds like he "demands" a lot from you and I don't think that's teaching mutual respect. There's no GD rule that we have to allow our kids to order us around. If mine are rude in a request, I'll say something like, "Excuse me? Try that again...." And usually they'll ask in a more polite way.

[savithny]

What a day! I remember 4.5. I remember similar moods.

A few thoughts - in no particular order, just throwing them out as bullets.

1) You say he didnt' seem unusually hungry - but you didn't get home for dinner until nearly 8pm. And he's 4. I actually *remember* being 4, and I remember getting into those moods. And my parents figured out while travelling with me that when I got into those moods, I often really, really needed to eat something.

2) You being cranky is a natural consequence. It is the main natural consequence. And honestly, its one that kids try to provoke. Not because they are bad, but because they are figuring out the world and their role in it. Go get a copy of "The Scientist in the Crib," which has a lot to say about the idea of "testing." In the real world, your actions have effects on other people, and their behavior changes if they get upset, or mad, or sad. This is normal, and not something to protect him from by never showing emotion in discipline. Kids want to understand how their actions and emotions affect others. It's vital to getting along in human society. If you deny them that knowledge, they'll keep trying.
I would say, if this starts happening again, "Honey, I am hungry, and tired, and I want to get home. And what you are doing is making it take longer to get home."

3) Natural consequence would also be, the next time he wants to keep playing the train game, "The last time we played, we missed the bus and we got home late. I am tired and we need to get home to eat dinner and I want to make sure we don't miss the bus."

4) My kids frequently ask to eat out. "We can't eat out every night," I tell them. When they're just begging but in an okay mood, I might talk about how restaurant food is not good to eat every day, and how it costs a lot of money that we might be able to spend on other things that the kids like.

5) By 4, depending on the location, one tactic can be to say "I'm sorry, I dont' want to play. I am walking to the bus stop now." and then just turning around and doing it. Matter of fact.

[sunnmama]

Can you manage carrying him safely? After you carried him down the stairs, and then he immediately threw mulch (and then took off running), I'd have scooped him back up and carried him to the final destination (bus stop). And then he would sit on my lap.

Can he still fit in an umbrella stroller? Maybe bring one and insist that he ride, if he is not acting safely.

I agree with the "knock yourself out" attitude when he is going to "tell" on you. My dd was a melt-down kind of kid when she was younger, and lots of times she would want something nice after a meltdown (play a game, read a book). I wasn't intentionally withholding love, but I was often *so wiped out* from dealing with 1 hr plus of meltdown that I would just refuse saying "I'm exhausted from our morning. I need a break". I'd say something similar when he demanded (well, I don't respond to demands, period) you read a book "I'm exhausted from having to carrying you here. I need a break." It's a natural and honest consequence.

[LynnS6]

Yes, pretend it never happened and try again today. I'm a firm believer in grace. Everyone deserves a chance to start again. If he starts up again today (though you're probably on your way, given the time zone differences), you can remind him "We didn't have a good day yesterday. Today I want to do X and Y so we don't feel so grumpy."

At the same time, that's a LATE schedule for a 4 year old. Do you bring a snack? Did he nap at school? This is the kind of behavior I see in my kids (well, in dd, ds is old enough for some kind of control now) when they are tired and/or hungry.

I think you may also need to set some time limits on how long you'll play 'train' before you need to move on. Setting up explicit expectations beforehand really helps my kids. "I'll play this for 10 minutes, and I'm afraid I'm going to slip on the wet stones, so I need the train to take an easy route."

[thismama]

I honestly refuse to work that hard to have a regular interaction with my child. Even things like 'You wish we were doing something different.' Do you ever say that to someone else apart from your child? I think just being real would go a long way here, being you, telling it like it is, saying No.

[SevenVeils]

To me, natural consequences of throwing things at me definitely includes NOT reading to you. That isn't using your emotion to punish, it is truly natural consequence.

[gsd1amommy]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

I think I handled this pretty well as it was happening--somehow, despite raging PMS, I managed not to raise my voice except when EnviroKid was far away and I needed to so he could hear me!--but I'm wondering what is the appropriate consequence for this behavior after the fact or if I'm supposed to pretend it never happened and hope it won't happen again.

Two important things to know:

1. EnviroKid and I commute to his pre-school (he's there all day while I'm at work) by city bus, two busses each way. Going home, we have to walk a short distance from one bus route to the other across part of a university campus (Pittsburghers: around the Cathedral of Learning), crossing a busy street at each side. The bus rides typically are a pleasant time when I read to him or we talk together. It's possible usually for us to commute by car (although parking is a problem) or for EnviroDaddy to take him in the car, but this week our car is being repaired.

2. Our family rule for weeknight dinners is that, unless we have special plans which we finalize in the morning, EnviroDaddy starts making dinner at 6:45 and we start eating as soon as it's ready and EnviroKid and I are home. We typically get home between 6:45 and 7:15.

So, yesterday I arrived at school and had this conversation with EnviroKid:
ME: Hello!
KID: Are we going to the potluck now?
ME: The church potluck was yesterday, remember?
KID: Oh yeah. Where are we going today?
ME: Home.
KID: But you are wearing a fancy dress, so we must be going somewhere.
ME: I'm glad you like my dress [ordinary flowery dress which I can't recall ever wearing to a special occasion ] but we don't have any special plans; we're going home, and Daddy is making dinner.
KID: : I thought we had a special plan.
ME: You'd like to be doing something different tonight.
KID: Me and Dominic were doing magic tricks today...

We left school, and everything went normally on the first bus. In the area we cross between busses, there's a patio with benches around 3 sides, where EnviroKid likes to play this game: I go to the far corner and sit on the bench and pretend to be waiting for a train; he tells me which it is, the route number, and where I'm going. He portrays the train by running along all of the benches, jumping off, passing my stop while I squawk in indignation, then looping back to pick me up. Then I "ride" by walking right behind him down the 47 steps to the lower lawn, over to the street, and across the street at the walk signal which I must call a "train signal." I am pretty tired of this game after playing it for about two years, but he loves it, so I almost always agree to play. I think the only times I've refused altogether have been when we're running late to get someplace we need to arrive on time.

This time, I was playing the game but got frustrated when the train began to follow a track of ludicrously tight hairpin turns down the stone steps, which were puddled with rain and slippery tree blossoms. I was wearing my one good pair of leather shoes and didn't want to get them wet, and I was afraid of slipping. I didn't tell HIM not to zigzag like that; I just wouldn't do it myself but continued to follow pretty closely behind him. He got furious and demanded that we go back up the stairs and I do it correctly. I told him I would not and went on down the stairs to the next landing.

He ran across the flowerbed that's held up by a retaining wall above the first two flights of steps, to the corner of the wall that is 15-20 feet above the bottom of these steps made of granite or marble or whatever it is that looks fully prepared to crack a 4-year-old's skull, and stepped onto the top of the wall. Now, EnviroKid is extremely well-coordinated and has excellent balance, but still, I was terrified. I came back up the stairs, approached him slowly speaking gently, explained that standing over there would not convince me to play the game, and told him to come with me to the bus stop. After a while he took my hand and started to walk with me, but then he bolted back there. Repeated the whole thing.

We got down half the steps, but then he went back to whining that we had to go back and start the game again. When I refused, he began yanking on my dress, kicking my feet, and screaming. I told him firmly that this is not the way to get what you want, detached myself, and walked down the rest of the steps. This usually gets him to follow after a while because he hates being alone. However, this time he stayed up there howling, "MAMA!!!" so rather than provoke any of the passersby into calling 911, I went back up. As soon as he saw me, he took off running for the upper stairs. I grabbed him--"OW YOU'RE HURRRTING MEEE!!!" "When you hold still, it will not hurt."--and gave him a choice of walking with me or being carried. He began making the wordless, obnoxious noise I imagine a spoiled brat and a sick cat being put through a meat grinder together would make, and kicking me, so I grabbed him and carried him down the rest of the stairs.

"PUT MEE DOOWWWNN, NOOWWW!!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
"NO!! PUT ME DOWN!!"
"I will put you down when you are ready to walk with me."
etc. Finally, as we neared the street,
"PUT ME DOWN!! I PROMISE TO WALK!!"
I put him down, and he immediately took off back toward the stairs. I grabbed him and said, "You broke your promise. I'm very disappointed in you." I carried him across the street and set him down there, at the corner of a large lawn with landscaping. It was 25 minutes since we got off the first bus one block away.

He immediately picked up two handfuls of mulch and threw them at me. I said, "Do not throw things at me." He ran away across the lawn. I walked as calmly as I could around the lawn, keeping an eye on him as he ran erratically in various directions for about 15 minutes. At one point he pretended to leap into traffic but actually ducked behind a big metal box (some kind of utility thing) and I knew that's where he was, but I didn't appreciate the maneuver or the spiteful look he gave me just before it, one bit! I started to tell him so when he came out, but he just ran away again.

Finally he said in a snippy tone, "We've probably missed five or sixty busses by now. Why don't we go to the bus stop?" I said, "Good idea!" and we went to the stop. He sat down on the bench, pulled someone's old chewing gum off the underside, and announced, " I am going to run away around the whole world collecting all the old gum!!" () I said, "That'll show ME! How many pieces of gum do you think you will find?" He speculated for a while and seemed to be feeling more peaceful.

But we were now waiting a while for a bus because it was later, when they run less frequently. EnviroKid demanded that I read to him. I explained that I'd like to, but I needed to watch for the bus and make sure the driver saw that we were waiting. (For some reason, many drivers act as if that stop isn't a stop and won't even slow down unless passengers are right on the curb looking undeniably interested in boarding.)

Several weeks ago, a large quantity of fine sand somehow got spilled across the sidewalk in front of the bus stop, and it hasn't been cleaned up. On dry, windy days, I've gotten sand in my eyes, which has been very painful since I wear hard contact lenses. Last night, EnviroKid picked up two handfuls of this sand and threw it at my face, announcing, "I'm going to get sand in your eyes!!" The sand, being damp, didn't get up that high. I grabbed EnviroKid and said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want. This is not a good time for reading. I will read to you on the bus." The moment I let go of him, he threw sand at my face again. I dragged him away from the sand and made him sit on the bench. Finally we got on a bus. The ride home was calm; I read to him.

The instant we got off the bus, EnviroKid said, "I want to have dinner in a restaurant." I said, "You behaved terribly in between busses. People who behave that way don't get taken to restaurants. Anyway, remember our family rule: We don't go to a restaurant on a school night unless we decided that in the morning. Daddy is making dinner for us." But I didn't get through any of those sentences without being interrupted by his shrieking. He kept on about that for a while and said, "If you won't take me to a restaurant, I'll tell Daddy about your bad behavior!" I said I would tell Daddy about HIS bad behavior, too, and we'd see what Daddy had to say. He said, "NO!!! ONLY I CAN TELL HIM!!" I said we'd both tell him, but he could go first. More shrieking.

We got home at 7:45. While EnviroDaddy reheated dinner, we both told our stories. Of course EnviroDaddy agreed that EnviroKid's behavior had been appalling and told him so, particularly emphasizing why we do not throw sand at anyone's eyes.

Bedtime went rather smoothly. I don't think EnviroKid was unusually tired, hungry, or otherwise needy on the way home. I can't figure out what went wrong, except that I didn't kowtow to every detail of his train game--I shouldn't have to do that!

I'm dreading the trip home today because I can't see what is the natural consequence of this behavior, either in the moment or later, except that I'm upset, and I know I'm not supposed to use my emotions to punish my child. So what can I do??

His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up, he could take a look around these areas tonight to make sure they are ship shape.

If not, it wouldn't hurt him one bit to spend a few minutes cleaning up after someone else just as someone did after him. He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage.

There were lots of opportunities to explore and experience the natural consequences of his actions but I think you missed them by getting into the pissing contest with him. I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy".

[thismama]

Sometimes I think too with all these strategies, kids end up desperately seeking the real us, the real edge, some real limit. Imagine if the people important to you in your life always responded strategically, never with their real feelings or real responses? Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.

[soposdedi]

He was hungry, mama. Snack before bus trip, very nearly entire problem solved . Oh and you don't HAVE to play that game if you don't want to, I swear. His sparkles will remain intact!

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I think you did a great job and did everything you could possibly do to try to turn things around and get back on track.

For some reason, my 4.5 year old occasionally has great difficulties with the transition from preschool to home. She can't tell me why she is having such a hard time today when yesterday everything was smooth. Its bewildering. Maybe she had a bad interaction with a playmate; maybe she didn't eat much for lunch; maybe she's more tired than usual... who knows.

Most of the time the transition is fine and fun reconnecting time. But as LynnS8 suggested, food was probably needed. I'm not above reminding DD I've got some marshmallows or crackers or yogurt drink in my pocket; let's sit down and make a picnic or some other such bribery. I prefer to think of it as helping her change the channel when we've gotten into a bad series of events. And oh yes, has she run from me!!! Nothing quite so frustrating when you have to tear after your crazy disobedient child with all the other parents and teachers watching.

Otherwise... chalk it up to a bad day. If it happens again, you can think of a better plan.

[BetsyNY]

Ditto PPs--give him a snack and tell him no more train game.

I also agree that the whole getting home to "tell Daddy" is bizarre. Don't put yourself on that level. He's four.

[Munchkinmaker]

I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to assume you use enviro mom/dad/kid so you can remain anonymous? But in this post you went on to post the exact bus rout you take, the rout you walk between buses, the approximate time you will be riding and walking those routs, in which city and for how many days and you also worked pretty hard at describing what to look for to pick you out of a crowd.

I'm pretty private on the Internet but get that people are less so and that's fine... But judging by the fact you chose screen names for all your family members while you post, I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't point out and caution you from putting so many details in your posts.

[IdahoMom]

So much going on here, but I think the best start would be talking at him less and feeding him more. That is SO late for a 4-year-old to have dinner. It's almost bedtime around here! When does preschool give him the last snack? How long has he been without food by the time you start the trek home? Dude is hungry!

[heartmama]

First, I am impressed that you didn't scream or spank--I always commend parents for self control. There are wonderful responses already in this thread. Particular thoughts that stand out:

1). If he is usually cooperative and pleasant I wouldn't assume anything different should be done tomorrow. It might have just been one, isolated, awful day. It happens.

2). Snacks are a good idea--just in case.

3). Personally, for me, I am more along the lines of Thismama in terms of how I would have responded in that moment. To put it simply, when ds acted within the range of 'normal' for himself, he could expect the range of normal responses from me--tons of reflection, engagement, empathy, second chances etc.

However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton. I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down.

This is more or less what happened the few times he did what you described. For my own ds it was highly effective. It was also highly effective for me personally.The limits were made crystal clear to ds without any spanking, screaming, or futile negotiating. If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller. Again, with zero negotation or discussion, because my safety and his safety was my responsibility. I had no intention of asking his permission to do my job.

[mysticmomma]

The only thing I have to add is, Do you bring a snack? Some sunflower seeds or fruit leather?

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by thismama

Sometimes I think too with all these strategies, kids end up desperately seeking the real us, the real edge, some real limit. Imagine if the people important to you in your life always responded strategically, never with their real feelings or real responses? Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids.

Exactly. This kind of hide-your-emotion parenting is not REAL. Kids want to see the REAL us.

You were angry, OP. You had been disrespected, you had been disobeyed, a promise to you had been broken and demands were being made of you. There is nothing wrong with showing just anger. By that I don't mean "only" anger, but "righteous" anger. It was your RIGHT to be angry.

I let my kids see me angry. I do my best not to react in anger when it comes to discipline, but I do let them SEE me angry. I let them see me cry. I let them see me exasperated, and confused, and scared and sad. It's part of being a human being.

The natural consequence of having someone treat you like crud is anger and sadness. Showing thsoe emotions to your son is not bad parenting.

Take this example: If someone came up to your son and threw rocks at his face, would you want him to just stand there void of all emotion and say, "You are mad at me. You did that to show me how upset you are." I would hope he would respond with JUST anger and be able to defend himself as a person worthy of respect.

[Anastasiya]

I'd also like to add that I totally agree with heartmama.

Originally Posted by heartmama

However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton. I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down.
This is more or less what happened the few times he did what you described. For my own ds it was highly effective. It was also highly effective for me personally.The limits were made crystal clear to ds without any spanking, screaming, or futile negotiating. If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller. Again, with zero negotation or discussion, because my safety and his safety was my responsibility. I had no intention of asking his permission to do my job.

When I have done this, it's been highly effective as well.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by heartmama

If he had done such a thing twice in a row he would have found himself traveling on a tether to my wrist or in a stroller.

We had the same approach, which is why I always had an umbrella stoller with me on walking-outings until dd was 5. It didn't stop her from having these kinds of meltdowns, but it gave me a way to keep her safe and minimize the drama until we got home.