In answer to the many questions/comments about feeding and schedule: I do not have a choice about whether or not to work full-time. Everyone in our family prefers a later schedule; we all have trouble falling asleep at bedtime and trouble getting up on time in the morning, but the school closes at 6:30 so that's the anchor point of our schedule! I typically work 9:15-5:45 so that I can pick up EnviroKid around 6:00. Because of the length of our commute, he brings a snack (trail mix or fruit) to school every day to eat at 5:00, in addition to the school-provided snack at 3:00. Occasionally he will complain of being hungry anyway, but on the day in question he did NOT say he was hungry. He still naps at school, usually 2 hours, and sleeps about 9 hours at night. On the day in question, the whiteboard at school said he had slept 2 hours 30 minutes, and he was not rubbing his eyes or otherwise seeming tired.
Several of you say I should have kept him physically restrained all the way home after the first trouble. I think this might just barely be possible...but my child weighs 42 pounds, I was carrying 2 bags which together must weigh 15 pounds (we use ceramic containers for lunches and are reading a 200-page hardcover book), he was struggling and we needed to descend 47 stone steps, and I have chronic problems with muscle spasms in my back and neck. I'm not writing off carrying him as a solution to a big crisis like this, but it isn't something I can do every day and I have to consider it risky.
It is absolutely impossible to bring a stroller. The busses are very crowded at the time of morning when we travel, and I'm carrying enough things already.
PikkuMyy wrote:
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| Again, there were quite a few other times to go straight to the bus stop but by trying to give him some control over the situation, this was delayed and he kept doing what he wanted to. He didn't want to go to the bus stop yet and managed to delay that for a LONG time - walking around the lawn while you followed him, climbing the wall, etc. |
Is it bad for him to have some control over the situation? Is it wrong to let him run around a lawn? I hoped that letting him run out some of his energy once we were in a safer place (that is, safe if you don't purposely run out of it into traffic
) would help him to calm down. Did you notice that it ended with him pretending that it was his idea to go to the bus stop?
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| I would have made sure he sat with me on the bench the whole time while waiting for the bus. |
I guess it was unclear that I didn't have the option of sitting on the bench myself. The bench is far back from the curb, and there's a hedge next to it that blocks your view of an approaching bus until it's almost there--that's why we've had problems in the past with drivers passing us up if I'm not out by the curb. (Yes, I have called the bus company several times to request that their drivers at least slow down and look into the shelter, but still some of them don't.)
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| I'm not sure what purpose the "telling your sides of the story" serves unless the conversation is about what went wrong and what could go better next time. |
That was exactly the idea. Also, I wanted his father's help in deciding if there was some consequence to be imposed.
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| So to answer your final question, when you pick him up today, I'd remind him that the commute home yesterday didn't go well for either of you and you'd like it to go better this time. Ask him to describe a better way to walk between buses. Really gauge his mood and his possible behavior before you start to go there so that you have a better idea of what to expect. When you are going to get off the first bus, remind him of the plan between buses. And then if you see any of the behavior starting, remind him very simply of the plan and help him to follow it. |
I wasn't able to see your reply until today, but this is almost exactly what I did. He suggested that I "wait at a different station" so that his train would come for me sooner, and that all went pretty smoothly. The rest of the evening was pretty normal.
BlueStateMama wrote:
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| At the last comment ("I'm telling Dad") my response would have been "knock yourself out, kiddo, I'm looking forward to discussing this chain of events with your father too." |
and gsd1amommy wrote:
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| I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy". |
The way I responded was MUCH more like BlueStateMama is imagining. I tried to project a calm confidence that when EnviroDaddy heard both sides of the story, it would be obvious that I was in the right. I didn't argue about who would be first; I shruggingly told him he could go first and that would be just fine.
Savithny wrote:
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| In the real world, your actions have effects on other people, and their behavior changes if they get upset, or mad, or sad. This is normal, and not something to protect him from by never showing emotion in discipline. |
and thismama wrote:
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| Some of the most strategic parents I know, who try every technique in a singsong voice, have the absolute most horrible kids. |
and Sancta wrote:
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| If someone came up to your son and threw rocks at his face, would you want him to just stand there void of all emotion and say, "You are mad at me. You did that to show me how upset you are." I would hope he would respond with JUST anger and be able to defend himself as a person worthy of respect. |
I didn't say I showed no emotion! I said I didn't RAISE MY VOICE i.e. shriek at him. I didn't say, "You did that to show me how upset you are"; I said, "Do not throw things at me." and "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes. You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." I certainly did not speak in a singsong voice or sound all wimpy and gooey. I was very firm and made it quite clear that I was angry and frustrated. I just refrained from freaking out and making the whole neighborhood listen to me, that's all. Is it just because I am capable of remembering a Becky Bailey technique in the heat of the moment that you assume I said those words in a sweetly useless way? I said, "You wanted me to read to you, so you tried to throw sand in my eyes." in a tone meant to convey,
You and I both know that was an utterly preposterous and horrible thing to do. I said, "You may not throw sand. Hurting people does not get you what you want." with the kind of clenched-teeth tension that implies,
I am so tempted to shake you to emphasize each word.
Thismama wrote:
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| I honestly refuse to work that hard to have a regular interaction with my child. Even things like 'You wish we were doing something different.' Do you ever say that to someone else apart from your child? |
Sometimes, and I've found it startlingly effective. It's straight out of Faber & Mazlisch. Did you notice how it made EnviroKid feel that I had heard what he was saying so he could go on to another topic? That's exactly what I was going for. The only reason I included that conversation in my post is that he did return to his "we're supposed to be doing something special tonight" idea later with asking to go to a restaurant.
SevenVeils wrote:
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| To me, natural consequences of throwing things at me definitely includes NOT reading to you. That isn't using your emotion to punish, it is truly natural consequence. |
It is if I hate reading aloud and consider it something I do only as luxury coddling. But I enjoy reading to him, and it gives both of us something calm and bonding to do on the bus. It seems to me that refusing to read leaves both of us with nothing to do but continue seething.
gsd1amommy wrote:
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| His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up... He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage. |
I see your point, but this really wasn't an issue. The mulch fell into grass; it would not have been possible to find it and pick it up. The flowerbed is heavily woodchipped, such that our footprints were not visible, and he didn't step on any plants. The sand is, as I said, spilled on the sidewalk and already A MESSY HAZARD THAT I REALLY WISH THE CITY WOULD CLEAN UP ALREADY
and he didn't make it any worse.
Munchkinmaker wrote:
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| I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to assume you use enviro mom/dad/kid so you can remain anonymous? ... I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't point out and caution you from putting so many details in your posts. |
I see your point, but I'm not really concerned about that. The reason I use names related to my screen name for my family members is that I can't stand "DS", etc., and I want it to be clear who's who--if I used their first names, you'd have to remember which name belongs to which male.
Heartmama wrote:
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| However, on the few occasions (around age 4) that he decided to deliberately break every rule within sight and more or less acted completely out of control including acting dangerous (you described traffic, retaining walls, bus stops, throwing sand at your eyes etc), then he quickly learned that brought another side of parenting to the table. I took control immediately and totally. No more discussion or engagement and zero negotiaton. I would have picked him up and held him tightly against me, tethering him to me if necessary with a sling or sash, with zero opportunity for him to continue being dangerous, and completely ignored any screaming, crying, or whatever retorts he shouted. When I say no negotiation I mean there would have been absolutely no discussion until we were home, safe, fed, and ds had noticeably calmed down. |
This sounds like a good response in future, once he's done ONE thing like running out to the top of a wall. I did have to get him away from the edge in a non-startling way to avoid making him fall, but after that it probably would have been better to keep him restrained. He's so hard to carry that I kept hoping he would cooperate....
Lisa in California wrote:
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| That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively. |
When EnviroKid was going to a home childcare and we were able to let him set his own schedule more, he stayed up past 11:00 every night and didn't wake until at least 8:00 in the morning. Not everybody is exactly like you. It's been over 2 years since he started going to this school, and we are still struggling to keep him on the earlier schedule. Talking of sources of stress here, imagine what it's like to have to leave the house every morning at the time when you'd like to be just waking up! That's how it is for every member of our family. But we just have to suck it up because enough people agree with you that, beginning next fall, he'll have to be AT SCHOOL at that time.
)
).
hen EnviroKid was going to a home childcare and we were able to let him set his own schedule more, he stayed up past 11:00 every night and didn't wake until at least 8:00 in the morning. Not everybody is exactly like you. It's been over 2 years since he started going to this school, and we are still struggling to keep him on the earlier schedule. Talking of sources of stress here, imagine what it's like to have to leave the house every morning at the time when you'd like to be just waking up! That's how it is for every member of our family. But we just have to suck it up because enough people agree with you that, beginning next fall, he'll have to be AT SCHOOL at that time. 
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