Horrible behavior on the way home! - Page 3

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mammastar2

Just a quick comment about the above - obviously things got dragged out too much on the one day, but not everyone has the option of getting home and having dinner on the table at 5:30! If no one's home until 6:45, well, that's just the way it is.

This. When I WOH, I didn't get home until 6:30. My ex may or may not have already been there (he was a furniture mover and could be off work anywhere from about noon to midnight). Generally, the earliest dinner got started was about 6:45, after I got out of my work clothes and figured out what I was doing in the kitchen...and maybe washed the necessary dishes/utensils, if I hadn't managed to get them done the night before, or that morning.

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by LisainCalifornia

That schedule just sounds very innapropriate for a 4 year old. I am over 40, and would be so hungry and tired if I didn't get home to eat till almost 8:00. Even your "typical" schedule (without being late) sounds way too late. My kids have always eaten dinner around 5:30, and bathtime is a few hours later. Then it is quiet resting time (like reading) before bed. I can't imagine not getting home to eat dinner till so late with them. I really think this can affect behavior negatively. I also thinking that sometimes we confuse our kids by talking too much, or giving them too many chances or choices. Sometimes it is better to just take a leadership tone and get on with the business of getting home.

I have 2 kids a 17 yo and a 4 yo and I have always been a working Momma, with my eldest I was a single Mama as well. I say this to say that IMO its really hard to eat dinner early when you work out of the home and don't get off work until 5 and have to get home. I am the director of the center I work at so I have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to leaving and only live 10 mins from my office...that said, an early dinner here is 6:30 and that's if I did a crockpot meal in the morning.

Generally 7:30 is dinner time in my house with bathtime happening at 8:15 or 8:30. What we do have though is a snack for my 4 yo when she gets home from daycare so that makes her less likely to melt down and my guess is that the OP should travel with a snack for her child.

I don't think a late dinner time is inappropriate though in anyway, different families have different schedules.

Shay

[savithny]

Originally Posted by lolar2

I agree with those who said he was probably extra-hungry, maybe he didn't eat much at lunch that day or something. It would explain the restaurant requests and all that. I used to do what Lynn said, when we had a bus commute, I tried to keep extra snacks in case DS got extra-hungry on the commute.

Yep. There are days when DD is just a pill all the way home from camp and half the afternoon, even though she was still working on afternoon snack when I picked her up -- and then I'll open her lunchbox to clean it out and discover she didn't eat any of her main protein food. I'll ask and she'll say "I was playing with Audrey and I didn't have time to finish it!" I've learned to have snacks stashed for trips, just in case -- preferably protein snacks like nuts or cheese.

That's not to say that all bad behavior is hunger-related! Sometimes they're just bored, or antsy, or maybe they had a bad interaction with another child or teacher and they're working it out in their heads, still. But with a schedule like that, and all the talk about food when you picked him up, I think a snack woudl have been the first thing on my mind.

[prancie]

The one thing that really got my attention is the late hour you two get home and how long he is at preschool every day and how long it takes to get home. He's just 4 and preschool is not home, he doesn't get hardly any say over how is life goes at preschool. He was tired, hungry and really wishing for more power in his own life. I'm afraid that if this is the lifestyle that you are planning, then you will get days like that as a natural consequence. Consider a change.

ETA: And beyond all that, he is 4 and stuff like that happens with all 4 year olds. I don't think it's a predictor of anything.

[forestrymom]

Originally Posted by gsd1amommy

His commute home this evening would most certainly involve checking out these areas where he made a mess last night to make certain they are nice and tidy. Since he didn't clean up the mulch he threw and the sand he scattered, making a mess for others to clean up, he could take a look around these areas tonight to make sure they are ship shape.

If not, it wouldn't hurt him one bit to spend a few minutes cleaning up after someone else just as someone did after him. He could also scope out the flower beds he trampled through, make sure he did no damage to flowers that were paid for and planted by someone else. Actually, my child would have done this last night and had he damaged any plants, we would be replanting them tonight or offering to pay for the damage.

There were lots of opportunities to explore and experience the natural consequences of his actions but I think you missed them by getting into the pissing contest with him. I am stunned that a grown woman, a mother, no less, would argue with a four year old about who was going to be the first to report "bad behavior to daddy".

Really? You've never said something you later regretted to your children? You should get an award.

And as for late/long workdays, I can totally relate, Mama. We have meltdowns almost every night, because my dh and I work 10 hour days. I only work 4 of them, but for those 4 days, its really hard, both on us and on the kids. I'm impressed that you are generally eating by 7! I get home at around 6:30, and I try to have something easy for dinner the nights I work--usually something I've cooked previously that I'm reheating.

But, that's not your question, and it seems a lot of mamas here have missed the beat. You are asking about this particular day/afternoon. You get home everynight late, and you have dinner on nights you work late, and generally envirokid is not this ornery. So you are wondering what set him off and how you could have better reacted, right?

My guess is he was tired and hungry, or that he had something happen at school that day that was bugging him and he was taking it out on you. Your reactions are that of a tired working mama--its hard! (((HUGS)))

After the second "violation" my almost 4 year old would have been carried, or led by the hand, because she would have been endangering herself, regardless of the raucous she made. We wouldn't be playing games, and depending on how the rest of the ride went, I'm not sure I would be reading to her. Of course, if she calmed down and apologized, or wanted affection instead of to get mad, I would give her that. And ask her what was bothering her, as well as offering her some kind of snack (which is usually why she melts down).

As for him threatening to tell his father, I'm of the mind to just ignore it. Acknowledge that it was said, probably say, "Go ahead." but then forget it. We don't play tattle tale here and my dh would probably offer a hug but not really respond to the story anyway.

[bnhmama]

So much good advice given here. I just want to chime in my agreement with those who pointed out that he really had just a little too much control in this situation.

This is something I've struggled with and I have to constantly remind myself-yes, we give them SOME control in appropriate ways but they should not be allowed total control in situations. They can't handle it.

It sounds like your little boy just spiraled more and more out as he lost control. At 4 years old, it's next to impossible that he's just going to be able to regain control himself. That's why we're here.

Again, I have struggled a lot with this and the direct approach works so much better for us. I also try to minimize words. Any typical situation goes like this: Tell child what to expect, tell child what I expect from them. Then during the situation if something goes wrong, I give one warning and then that's it. No negotiation. Chances are over because he's not making good choices and needs my help. That's how I try to look at it and it works sooooo well. And since I've been consistent with it, he reacts soooo much better because he knows what to expect from me. He's not trying to provoke me to reaction any more.

[EnviroBecca]

I did feel defensive about some of the earlier advice, but I really am looking for help in feeling prepared if something like this ever happens again. The most helpful thing I have heard here is that it is "okay" for me to sieze control of the situation once it becomes apparent that EnviroKid cannot control himself; that is not being too ungentle, etc.

I also think that the suggestions to carry an "emergency snack" make a lot of sense, since there ARE times when he complains of hunger before we get home, although this wasn't one of them. Like other people's kids, some days he doesn't eat enough lunch.

Sunnmama wrote:

That's why I brought an umbrella stroller. They fold down to nothing for space in the bus, and you can push your bags in them when dc is not using it (a huge benefit in and of itself)--but you have it for emergency containment. I'd ditch the thick book and ceramic lunchware before I'd ditch my umbrella stroller with an unpredictable preschooler and a long journey home.

I'm glad it worked for you and impressed that you were able to buckle it on a struggling kid. If he were smaller now, I'd try it--the expense of going out to lunch would be balanced by the peaceful trip home plus the fact that I LIKE going out to lunch :--but he's already officially too heavy for the stroller. And in my few experiences with taking the stroller on the bus, I wouldn't say it folds down to "nothing": It's a good 3 feet long, it's heavy and unwieldy enough that I need one whole hand for carrying it, the corners of the frame are sharp so I have to be very careful not to bump it into myself or others, and on the models of bus with no luggage rack there is nowhere to put it except in my lap leaning against my face and that's if I'm lucky enough to get a seat. And did you miss the 47 steps in our route? We'd have to change routes in a different place to avoid steps. But if this had happened two years ago, it would have been worth a try.

All kids are different, and maybe running around would help some kids in that situation. It wouldn't have been helpful for my dd at that age; when she was out-of-control melting down, she needed us to take control very firmly. She needed the safety of boundaries and a quick exit (the ripping off the bandaid metaphor is perfect). We couldn't trust her to act safely when she was in such a state of mind.

That makes sense. I agree that his behavior BEFORE we got to the lawn already was such that I could have said, "I can't trust you to act safely," so it might have been best not to allow the running around. It certainly didn't seem to help much!

SophieKat wrote:

I've found that even with my incredibly verbal, smart, intelligent 4 year old that when she's in destructo-cycle like this that the fewer words I use to get my point across the better.
Perhaps, instead of starting with the Bailey technique, it would get your point across in a more meaningful way to start with
"Do NOT throw sand at me." Maybe even following up with a consequence -- "if you continue to throw sand, you will have to be carried the rest of the way home."
Then, after your limit has been firmly established, move on to "hurting people does not get you what you want."

That makes sense.

"It is not OK to throw sand. I will not read to you if you do that." You could even follow it up with "I am upset with the way you are acting. If you want me to read to you, you need to stop throwing things/walk nicely the rest of the way/whatever is most important at that point."
That way you're acknowledging what he wants (you to read) while reiterating the limit.

I understand what you mean about acknowledging and reiterating. I'm not so sure that refusing to read to him is a logical consequence. Yes, if he succeeded in throwing sand at my eyes, I might have so much eye pain that I would not be able/willing to read. But aside from that, the two things aren't connected, so this approach would boil down to, "If you won't do what I want, I won't do what you want, so there!" and I try to reserve that for times when I don't want to do the thing he wants...whereas reading to him on the bus is my #1 way of encouraging appropriate bus behavior, by motivating him to be quiet and still so he can hear the story. When he's already acting up, taking that away is likely to make him worse.

One day about a month ago, I got frustrated because he wouldn't stop interrupting while I was reading, so I put away the book and said I would not read to him for the rest of that bus ride. Then I spent the next 20 minutes (it was the perfect time to get stuck in traffic) being incessantly nagged to read. And I WANTED to read to him--not only would it be more fun than being nagged, but I wanted to know what happened next in the story!--but he'd been pushing so many limits that morning already that I felt I HAD to hold firm. It was a miserable experience for me and the other passengers as well as EnviroKid. I kept to the principle of meaning what I say, but nothing else positive was gained from it.

OGirlieMama wrote:

I don't have much quibble with your description of you handled everything, except for the "telling both sides of the story to Daddy" part. And that may be some leftover weird feeling I have about your husband seeming strangely controlling after the whole cookie-in-the-hotel incident.

Fair enough! I would not have brought up "telling Daddy" myself, but since EnviroKid did I felt it was reasonable for us both to tell him about it. What I would rather have done was walk in the door, announce that I needed a break from the kid because of his behavior (without detail) and go upstairs. I have done this sometimes before. Then, if after I've calmed down I still think it's important to tell EnviroDaddy all about it, I do that after EnviroKid has gone to bed.

Dandelionkid wrote:

After reading your post I was left with a sense of awe at how well you handled the whole thing. The running back to the dangerous part more than once could use a new strategy next time but really, with what little steam you had left, you did a remarkable job of self-control.

Thanks! It wasn't easy. I really wanted to slap and spank him.

Lisa in California wrote:

The thing is, if your preschooler was staying up way past 11:00 and then still getting up at 8:00--that is still not enough sleep, I don't think. Late dinners are hard on adults, but very hard on kids. I grew up in a late dinner eating family, and I remember feeling so hungry it was painful--and just worn out from waiting so long. So maybe my opinion on the matter is unfairly colored by my personal experience.

Yes, I think so. Did you get snacks at two-hour intervals between nap and dinner, plus an "appetizer" if dinner was not within 5 minutes of ready when you got home? My childhood best friend's family had dinner around 7:30 or 8:00 every night (prior to 1st grade, she had her bath and PJs with her dad while her mom was cooking, and went to bed right after eating) and it didn't seem to harm her; it was just what she was used to.

My son was staying up past 11:00 and getting up at 8:00 when he was a toddler who took 3 naps totalling 4-5 hours a day. That was his natural pattern. He was scaling back toward 1 nap when we started this schedule just after he turned 2. He now sleeps 9-10 hours at night and about 2 hours at nap.

Tigerchild wrote:

Becca, I hope that you gave yourself some down time and a few extra minutes of goofing off on the computer or some extra reading time with a good book, or whatever you like to do to relax! You earned it!

Thanks! I did not get that time until the next evening. EnviroKid clung to me for bedtime (he often does this when I've been very upset with him earlier in the day--I think he needs the closeness with me to rebuild his sense of security) and I intended to get up once he was asleep to wash the dishes, but I fell asleep. So the next night I prioritized relaxation time and then stayed up late to get the dang dishes done, which is not ideal, but it's better than not relaxing at all....

Savithny wrote:

Sometimes, when things are going badly, for some kids I think it can be better to step back, stop talking so much, and wait for the high emotions to subside before you talk it all out. With my DS, I could talk about the situation and feelings and brainstorm ideas for how things could go better -- after the situation was past. In the moment, I had to pick one very simple message ands tick to it.

This sounds like a good idea. EnviroKid is very verbal, but at times he just stops listening well and stops making sense in what he says, and at those times less talk may be more effective.

Onemomentatatime wrote:

Wow, Mama. You do this commute everyday?! And it usually goes well almost every day?! Pat yourself on the back, you're obviously Super Mama. Every kid has a bad day sometimes. If the commute usually happens smoothly, you can probably let go of a bad one every now and then.

Thanks! I do try to remind myself of that pretty often: It's a complicated thing we do each day, and most days it's a pleasant adventure in which we do NOT have any brushes with death or get mad at each other!

Forestrymom wrote:

You are asking about this particular day/afternoon. You get home everynight late, and you have dinner on nights you work late, and generally envirokid is not this ornery. So you are wondering what set him off and how you could have better reacted, right?

Yes, exactly! I am not looking to revamp our entire lifestyle, which for the most part works well for us. He loves his school, so although I routinely wrack myself with guilt about how I never had a 9-hour school day in my life, I can't see quitting my job as the solution to an occasional behavior problem on the commute.

Bnhmama wrote:

Any typical situation goes like this: Tell child what to expect, tell child what I expect from them. Then during the situation if something goes wrong, I give one warning and then that's it. No negotiation. Chances are over because he's not making good choices and needs my help. That's how I try to look at it and it works sooooo well. And since I've been consistent with it, he reacts soooo much better because he knows what to expect from me. He's not trying to provoke me to reaction any more.

Yeah, it seems like when I've taken that approach, it does work better. It was easier when he was smaller. Now it is tiring to carry him one block and difficult to keep my balance carrying him downstairs even if he's cooperating; when he isn't, I am really afraid one or both of us will wind up seriously injured.