catholicism and inclusiveness

[mammal_mama]

Hi, I was raised fundamentalist Christian. Most of my religious experience has been in a (conservative) Baptist church and in the Assemblies of God. But now my husband and I have been gradually evolving into much more liberal people.

We now believe in Universal Salvation, which I've heard many people in the Catholic Church also believe in. We also no longer see homosexuality as a sin -- and though I realize the Pope still sees it as a sin to practice it, from my understanding there's actually room for lots of differences of opinion among parishioners, on this and other issues, without the dissenters being excluded from the group.

It was actually through reading Father Daniel A Helminiak's book titled What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality that I began seriously rethinking my opinions on the whole issue.

Dh and I really don't want our children growing up in a church where they'll be indoctrinated in fear -- either for their own souls or for those who believe differently. We also want them learning tolerance and acceptance for those who are different.

We also really want a neighborhood church if at all possible -- and the churches near us that have more liberal theology (i.e. ELCA, Disciples of Christ) seem to be composed of a handful of elderly people, not many families with children.

I've been hearing such wonderful things about the community life of the Catholic Church -- and the one up the street from us seems to be bursting at the seams. We live in a predominantly-Hispanic neighborhood, so Catholicism seems to be one of the primary religions here.

One of my 9yo's dear friends has been actively involved in this church up the street all her life (along with her family)

I'd love to learn more about it -- and to get more plugged into our community in the process.

My husband has reservations because of the tithing rules -- but on one site I looked at, they said for people who don't feel they can afford to tithe, they can start with less than 10%, so it seems like there's leeway for low-income people like us.

I'm also wondering how welcome we'd be as "seekers" -- I realize we can't take Communion without being members, but are we likely to be welcomed and able to participate in other aspects of church life while learning?

[Fay]

Yes, your family would be welcome at a Catholic church. In many Catholic churches, non-Catholics are invited to come up for a blessing at Communion time...instead of approaching with hands held out or an open mouth, you cross your arms over your chest to signal the priest. I suggest calling the church office to ask if you can do this at Mass. You may also request a meeting with the priest ahead of time...most priests and deacons love to offer a personal welcome to families exploring Catholicism, and they are happy to answer your questions or offer resources to help you understand what is happening at Mass.

One thing that I really love about going to Mass that is different from most other denominations is that children are present and active all through the worship, which adds a chaotic, but warm and loving, element to the worship. Spanish-language Masses are especially wonderful for families with children -- the whole community embraces the cuteness, the squirminess and the joy of children.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Fay

One thing that I really love about going to Mass that is different from most other denominations is that children are present and active all through the worship, which adds a chaotic, but warm and loving, element to the worship. Spanish-language Masses are especially wonderful for families with children -- the whole community embraces the cuteness, the squirminess and the joy of children.

This sounds especially appealing to me. I have a 4yo who still gets very "squirmy" at times.

I recall that when one of my friends spent a summer in Rome, she complained about how the Italians (from her American perspective) "didn't discipline" their children and let them go wild at church.

Years later when I became a mama to my own "wild" children, I found myself yearning for this type of accepting environment to raise my family in.

[cagnew]

There are many liberal protestant church with very active community lives and they usually have big youth groups and sunday activities for children.

I am Catholic and I have to say that your premise about the Catholic Church being open to many opinions is not accurate. Yes, many people who believe they are "catholic" and attend certain catholic churches that hold wide varieties of beliefs. Many "catholics" use birth control and believe in gay marriage and a whole slew other controversial issues.

However, the Catholic Church is not open to free interpretations and opinions on topics such as the ones mentioned above. The Church is stricly opposed to birth control and gay marriage and married priests and women priests. The Church's teachings are pretty black and white on these issues. People who are Catholic are bound to follow Church doctrines and official teachings. That is part of being Catholic and that is why I have put my reference to the people above in quotations... they might be confirmed catholics, but they are technically seperated from the Church (though they often do not know it).

All that being said, you can definetly attend Mass and watch and learn. I love my Catholic faith and wouldn't trade it for anything. Yes, the Church holds teachings that many disagree with, but I challenge you to investigate the reasons behind the teachings. What seems like strict adherence to silly outdated rules is actually full of love and good purpose. There is a reason behind every single thing the Church teaches.

As far as being inclusive, the Church teaches that we should love everyone regardless of race, creed, beliefs, etc. Loving someone and supporting their actions are two different things though. And sometimes love calls for one to do things that are hard for everyone involved.

I caution you when reading books or listening to priests and bishops talk. Many are not in line with Church teachings. If you really want to learn what the Church teaches (which you should before you make any big decisions), make sure you are learning from the right people. Scott Hahn used to be protestant and has converted to the Catholic faith. He wrote some excellent books about his conversion and Church teachings.

I don't know what that book you read said about homosexuals, but if it in any way suggested that gay marriage or gay sexual relationships are okay, it was very, very wrong. THe Church is clear on it's stance (what the Pope said). Look at it this way: the Church teaches that premarital sex is wrong. That includes more thanjust sex... it includes "petting" and mastrubation too. IF it isn't okay for straight couples to do it, thanit's not okay for gay couples either. Since marriage in the Catholic Church only takes place between a man and a woman, a gay "marriage" will never be recognized in the Church's eyes. So gay sexual actions will never be okay.

As for tithing, you should give whatever you feel God wants you to give. There is no 10% "rule" in the Church. Giving money to the Church is a way to thank God for blessing you with the things you have. Plus, contrary to poular belief, the Catholic Church is not rich. It takes a lot of money to run even a small parish and that money comes from the support of the parishoners. However, you can tithe your time and talents too. My husband helps lead the choir and that is part of our tithe.

I really encourage you to check out the Church. It's wonderful. The peace and awe that comes with learning the truths and Church history are amazing! Plus, Catholics believe that Christ is truly physically present in the Eucharist- and that's literally heaven on earth!

I will keep you in my prayers as you search for a church to call home. If you find that you cannot accept what the Church teaches, then I hope you find another church that eventually leads you home

Feel free to pm me with questions. God bless!

[PatienceAndLove]

What she said.
And feel free to PM me, as well. I am a revert, and it took a lot of studying and prayer to come home.

[springmama]

I am currently in RCIA at a Catholic Church. I was raised in a Baptist church for a few years, recently got back into church and began at an Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church is a lot of what you talked about. Personal interpretation of the bible, openly accepting of homosexuals, men, women and homosexuals can be ordained and clergy are allowed to marry. And the use of birth control is accepted. It is very much like the Catholic church in its worship too. That being said I have been torn about which church to commit myself to and when I look at it closely I think that I will ultimately choose the Catholic Church. So far my reading and research indicates to me that the Catholic Church is the church that Christ founded. There are many things that I am working through to understand about it but the church really does have a rational and good reason for why it teaches what it teaches. At first I really wasn't ok with the opposition to birth control but after looking into I saw where they were coming from and I understand why they are so against it.

I urge you to call your parish and meet with someone. RCIA classes usually start up at this time of year and the first part of the class is the inquiry period. There is no commitment to anything so you may want to see about joining the class. Also sometimes the priest or deacon or RCIA director will meet with you to talk about your questions and concerns. Before the first RCIA class I talked with one of the teachers and determined that I did in fact want to join the group.

At my parish all are welcome to attend Mass. Since you are not a member of the Church you cannot receive Communion but you can receive a blessing as the pp suggested. What I also love about the Catholic Church is the daily Mass. It is so great to go to Mass during the week in addition to Sundays.

I also highly recommend reading Patrick Madrid's, Surprised by Truth. This book was what really got me serious about joining RCIA. It contains about a dozen stories of people who converted to Catholicism. It gives the historical and biblical reasons for why they chose the Catholic Church. And remember to pray, pray , pray about it. Best of luck to you!

[mammal_mama]

Thanks for all this great input ladies!

Yes, I know there are lots of liberal Protestant churches that have a lot of families -- we just haven't been able to find any in our immediate neighborhood --

I have this weird thing about wanting to find a church in walking distance -- I mean, even a mile or 2 could be walking distance -- we'd usually drive, but it'd still feel like our home church 'cause we "could" walk if we had to.

From what I've been able to discover thus far, all of the more active churches in our neighborhood, the ones that have a wide range of ages and not just elderly (though I definitely want a church with elderly folks, I just want to be with other families like us, too) --

Well, the most active churches in our area seem to either be Assembly of God or Catholic. But ... we're getting happier and happier with not going anywhere -- just every now and then I get these twinges ...

[xekomaya]

Ya know, I really hear what you're saying. Religion really isn't about the community or the proximity though. It's all about finding the Truth and living your life in accordance with it.

I hope you'll take time to pray about it, and really clarify what you're doing and why, and what you want your kids to see and learn. I'll be praying for you as well.

[athansor]

Sounds like we're in a similar place. I was raised Catholic, then in recent years joined the Episcopal church. These days the church I'm attending is really dwindling, and I often wish there were some other children for my kids to get involved with. So, I'm considering attending the Catholic church again. Last Sunday I went to Catholic mass and it was so nice to be in a church full of people again. I'm not sure where I'm going with this right now, so it's nice to read the replies here.

[chfriend]

People who disagree with some church teaching are not "catholic." They are Catholics who live in dissent.

Mass is open to any who would like to attend. Communion is not open, but many churches offer a blessing as described in a pp.

I am a cradle Catholic who is a lesbian. It is true that many folks disagree with the Church's teachings on homosexuality and other matters. It is also true that the majority opinion of the folks in the pews has no affect on church teachings. It's important to understand that if you convert.

Mass is a wonderful blessing, a delightful celebration. If you feel attracted to attending the church down the street, there's nothing to be lost in giving it a try.

Since large families are traditional in Catholicism, I have found a great tolerance for wiggly-ness in little ones.

[mammal_mama]

So, chfriend, is there place in church-life for those of us who will always be living in dissent/disagreement with certain Catholic teachings (unless the Catholic church makes some big changes)?

I'm guessing that since I'm not a cradle-Catholic, I couldn't honestly convert to Catholicism, since I don't see it as a sin to practive homosexuality, and I'm also a Christian Universalist -- and yet, with the Universalism I've heard that there may be room for this in Catholicism?

Also, chfriend, with regards to church teachings -- do you feel your children are hearing any teachings that you're concerned about? Or is the Catholic Church not as open in its condemnation of homosexuality as the fundamentalist churches are.

Also, would this be a church where my family could participate fully in Church life (with the exception of of course having to do the sacraments at home as we couldn't in the Mass) -- without ever being confirmed? Or would my children be likely to feel left out?

Or is there leeway for people to get confirmed while still in a state of dissenting on some points? I'm guessing that as a cradle Catholic you were confirmed before you reached an age of realizing that you dissented with certain teachings -- so if you hadn't already been Catholic, would you see this as a religion you could convert to today?

[PatienceAndLove]

My father came into the Church with two teachings that he had issues with (no idea the issues, as they are something he is personally working through). Father told him to come into the Church anyway and let the Holy Spirit do his thing. Well, 10 years later, my father is a strong Catholic who now only has one issue is working through.

I would say there is some room for people who have some doubts regarding the Church's teachings, but what makes it better is if you fully understand that teaching. If you are dissenting without fully understanding why the issue/dogma exists, than you are doing yourself a great disservice. If you decide to go through RCIA or just start attending the Church, start researching the teachings you have issues with. Start with the Catechism. Pick up some good books that have an impritur (those are the ones that have been found free of error according to Catholic teaching). Ask the ladies here or visit catholic.com

There are a lot of teachings I had to come to terms with, and some I still wrestle with. I know the Church's teachings through and through, but I don't blame the Church. I love Her and I support everything She teaches. It is my own humanity that keeps me in doubt.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Also, chfriend, with regards to church teachings -- do you feel your children are hearing any teachings that you're concerned about? Or is the Catholic Church not as open in its condemnation of homosexuality as the fundamentalist churches are.

I know this is not addressed to me, but I wanted to add a clarification.
One of the issues in regards to homosexuality is also tied into the use of artificial birth control, condoms, and vasectomies.
All four hinder the creation of life. The Church teaches that all sexual unions must have the possibility of creating life. Even couples using NFP TTP pregnancy know that even engaging in the marital embrace during an infertile period might lead to the creation of a child. It is this openness to the creation of life that is a part of the Church's stance on homosexuality.
Additionally, the Church does not condemn homosexuality. What it condemns is active practice of a homosexual lifestyle. But you seem to already know that.
I hope some of that helped.

Also, would this be a church where my family could participate fully in Church life (with the exception of of course having to do the sacraments at home as we couldn't in the Mass) -- without ever being confirmed? Or would my children be likely to feel left out?

How does one "do the sacraments" at home?
You might enroll your children in CCD, as it will give them a chance to make friends within the Church. See if there is an Adult Bible Study offered during the week, or perhaps even during CCD. There is usually the Kinights of Columbus or a Men's Group at churches. Inquire about the women's groups. My parish has so many women's groups, I cannot keep track of them! There may even be a "Young Adult's Group" (usually 21-30) that you might take part in. Also, inquire with the diocese. They may be able to tell you about groups/events at parishes in your area.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

So, chfriend, is there place in church-life for those of us who will always be living in dissent/disagreement with certain Catholic teachings (unless the Catholic church makes some big changes)?

I'm guessing that since I'm not a cradle-Catholic, I couldn't honestly convert to Catholicism, since I don't see it as a sin to practive homosexuality, and I'm also a Christian Universalist -- and yet, with the Universalism I've heard that there may be room for this in Catholicism?

Also, chfriend, with regards to church teachings -- do you feel your children are hearing any teachings that you're concerned about? Or is the Catholic Church not as open in its condemnation of homosexuality as the fundamentalist churches are.

Also, would this be a church where my family could participate fully in Church life (with the exception of of course having to do the sacraments at home as we couldn't in the Mass) -- without ever being confirmed? Or would my children be likely to feel left out?

Or is there leeway for people to get confirmed while still in a state of dissenting on some points? I'm guessing that as a cradle Catholic you were confirmed before you reached an age of realizing that you dissented with certain teachings -- so if you hadn't already been Catholic, would you see this as a religion you could convert to today?

As a new convert to Catholicism who was a former very socially liberal agnostic, I will just say to give the Church a true chance. There is a reason why the New Testament (especially Paul's writings) stress the transformation of those who undergo a true Christian conversion. I understand the initial feeling of wanting to protect and maintain beliefs that you hold as empathetic and important - I was in your shoes not too long ago myself and had a lot of the same thoughts. But I've found the Church's teachings, when gotten down to brass tacks, are well thought out and well defended. The Bible and Catechism are great resources that work in tandem with each other and perfectly explain the Catholic position on all controversial issues.

The single biggest hurdle for me to jump as I made my way through the conversion process was the idea that I needed to submit my own authority to a higher authority. That stung, I still feel the sting at times because I like to believe I am a fairly intelligent and compassionate person! Just because a lot of Catholics do not abide by Church teachings doesn't mean it is OK and that Catholicism is a pick and choose what you like religion. It is perfectly reasonable to challenge and question and take a very, very long time to make your way through the conversion process - some people go through RCIA multiple times (so YEARS of study) as they wrestle through their own hurdles with accepting some Catholic teachings. My point here is that the onus is on you as the seeker to come to terms with true Catholic doctrine and choose to accept or reject it, not expect to pick and choose after you've entered the Church. I hope I am making sense here! You seem like a wonderfully warm and kind person from your posts, a woman who really wants to find her spiritual home for herself and family and I hope that you find that Catholic Christianity is more than you ever dreamed and imagined it could be. I am sure that any Catholic parish will welcome you and your family to participate as much as you can with the Church body as you process through your possible conversion. There are so many social and spiritual support groups and activities at Catholic parishes that are great to take part in.

I just want to add on to what P & L said in the last post, it is impossible per Catholic teaching to "do" the sacraments at home. God performs the sacraments on a person through a priest. The only sacrament that I can think of that technically doesn't require a priest is baptism and that is only to be done in very extreme circumstances in which death is imminent and the person expresses a desire to be baptized. The consecration of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus certainly cannot be achieved at home by a layperson!

Some good places to start if you are looking for general, quick info are:

Stephen Ray's Crossing the Tiber

Scott Hahn has some short talks on CD that are sold through Lighthouse - I think most are between $1-3. Many parishes have these that they will give you.

Common Ground DVD featuring a Protestant pastor and a Catholic priest discussing the commonalities and the differences between those two branches of Christianity. It is available through Nineveh's Crossing and is worth the $20!

www.conversiondiary.com - Blog written by an atheist to Catholic convert. Lots of great topical posts linked on her sidebar.

The Catholic Answers forums are also FULL and BRIMMING with helpful information, especially the Ask An Apologist forum. It is a great free resource!

The Mass is a wonderful place to begin falling in love with the Church. The Church has become so important to me in such a short time, really a wonderful and unexpected discovery. I hope you find what you are looking for. :

[lilyka]

unlike in protestant churches you really can't do the sacremtns at home. Well I suppose you could baptize your children but I think there might be some rules about when that is acceptable. the only Catholics I have known to do that were ones who feared their childs lives were in peril and they might not make it until a preist got there or there was no time to get a preist there (one was born extreemely prematurely and another was rushed into surgery right away). In the Orthodox Church (the other non-protestant church) you cannot even baptize your children under these conditions but we have a different take on original sin and the nessecity of baptism.

[mammal_mama]

Wow! I've just been learning about an awesome Catholic organization called Call To Action.

It makes me kind of sad that I'm not a cradle Catholic -- because this seems like such an exciting, diverse church to be a part of, but I just have a feeling that I wouldn't be accepted (for membership) as I am now, because I feel such a need to be honest about what I really think (which is not completely in-line with the current Pope's teachings).

And I really, really do love the idea of a local, neighborhood parish that you can walk to. Our Old Northeast Kansas City neighborhood started out as mostly Italian, and of course has changed over time and now seems to be predominantly Hispanic. Which means that it's always been heavily Catholic, and still is.

Being part of our neighborhood Catholic congregation seems like such a great way to get more plugged into our community. I've also begun reading the Catechism and it's just beautiful.

I really like Call to Action's emphasis on the need for more of a dialog between laity and leadership. So if I were a cradle Catholic I could already be "in" -- but since I'm not "already" Catholic I'm just feeling kind of sad right now.

I think I'll try to get us to at least one mass this weekend.

Here's the link to Call To Action --

http://www.cta-usa.org/

[PatienceAndLove]

Members of Call to Action have been excommunicated within the Archdiocese of Lincoln

Vatican supports excommunication of Call to Action group

Info regarding why CTA is not in line with Catholic teachings

Call to Action Turns Twenty: From Bicentennial Celebration to
Excommunication

If you search catholic.com for "call to action", you will find more info regarding their stance and why it is not compatible with the Church.

[PatienceAndLove]

I realized my PP sounded quite harsh.
I am sorry for that. I just worry about those looking into the Catholic Church who get sidetracked by organizations claiming to be Catholic, but are in reality not loyal to the Magistarium.

[umsami]

I took RICA classes in my early twenties and thoroughly enjoyed them. I actually read the whole book within a day or so, it was quite interesting to me.

I ended up not converting, but I just wanted to let you know that all of the Catholic churches I've been involved with have been very very open to seekers. So don't worry.

I also really want to encourage you to consider talking to a Priest. They're usually really nice guys used to answering questions like yours.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

It makes me kind of sad that I'm not a cradle Catholic -- because this seems like such an exciting, diverse church to be a part of, but I just have a feeling that I wouldn't be accepted (for membership) as I am now, because I feel such a need to be honest about what I really think (which is not completely in-line with the current Pope's teachings).

Just wanted to add that even if you were a cradle Catholic and you did not have beliefs or live by the moral teachings of the Church that you would still be outside the Church in regards to being able to receive the sacraments. It is a mortal sin to receive communion if you are knowingly participating in behaviors that are against Church teaching. This doesn't mean that you cannot have some disagreement over Church disciplines (ie. priestly celibacy) but you cannot actively work against the Church's doctrine (ie. female ordination) in either an outward or inward way. So it isn't as easy as just thinking if you had been born Catholic you would be "in". You may be culturally Catholic in that case but not spiritually obedient. I hope that makes sense!

Keep reading and searching. P&L gave you good info. on Call To Action. You seem like a woman who would be very interested in reading about Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement. Keep us posted!