catholicism and inclusiveness - Page 4

[The Duchess]

Mammal Mama, going back to your original question about how do you become seekers you might be interested in the following.

First I was going to suggest that you get your hands on a copy of the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults http://www.amazon.com/United-States-.../dp/1574554506
This is a very user friendly catechism which is divided into short but very meaningful chapters that begin with a story of a saint or well-known Catholic, the majority from the USA. If you can't buy your own copy I am sure any Catholic parish could lend you a copy.

Then I remembered that the pastor from my last parish before we left the USA has been giving talks most Thursdays based on this Catechism. The whole parish is welcome and he gets a good turn out (100-200 people). Plus he makes sure it coincides with the RCIA class so that they can come to his talk for an hour before they go on to talk in small groups. So it is aimed at all adults in the parish but is accessible even to those who are just beginning to inquire about the faith. Father Nagel is a very Orthodox, intellectual guy, but also very sharp and loving. He is actually a "revert". He totally fell away from the faith and examined all kinds of other things before experienced a deep conversion which led him to the priesthood. So he understands the attraction and pull of other ideas outside Catholicism. At a guess I say he's about 45.

The parish is in Kirkland, Washington a suburb of Seattle. A very big and active parish with every "flavor" of Catholic represented from Traditional with a big "T" and homeschooling Catholic through to very liberal. Tons of young families with kids, older families that have been in the parish a long time and professionals from all over the world who come to work at Microsoft which is a couple of miles away.

Here is the link to all the talks. Each lasts about an hour and is directly commenting on a chapter of the Adult Catechism mentioned above. You don't need a copy to listen to the talks but I think the book and talk each expand upon the other. Hope this is interesting....kind of Catholic 101.
http://www.hfk2.org/pages/faith_pages/audioTalks.html

Off to Italy for 10 days, talk to you when I get back!

[mammal_mama]

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/

Duchess, thank you for taking the time to share so much! And I hope you are having fun in Italy! The above link is to where I've been reading the Catechism online. It may be a little different from what you're describing.

Especially inspiring to me is the whole concept of God BEING relationship, and BEING a family within Himself. The Trinity is so very dear to me, and this is one big reason why I don't think I could ever become Unitarian Universalist -- even though I'm Universalist, the holy Trinity is just so essential to me and to my faith.

We went to the family dinner last night at the Catholic Worker house, and it was just a wonderful time of fellowship. I really liked the way the volunteers were comfortable with reciprocity, and encouraged people who wanted to to stay and help with cleanup.

My past experience, going to another community dinner at another church a while back, was that it was "them" serving "us" -- and while those volunteers were very nice, there wasn't the same sense that they were eager to hang out with us and get to know us.

At the Catholic Worker dinner, the volunteers sat at the tables, too, and ate and visited with us. And then us getting to help gave it such a family flavor. And my daughters had a fun time playing in the yard with one of the worker's sons (there are 2 families living in the Catholic Worker community and doing this work).

So this definitely feels like a way to get more connected. Interestingly, though, none of these Catholic Workers are Catholic!

Oh, and one really exciting thing is their extensive garden -- in the front and in the back. When they first got the house a couple years back, there were a lot of refugees living in a nearby apartment building, and they had lots of agricultural know-how and helped the workers get the gardens going.

They've even developed an extensive irrigation system on the roof, which enables them to water the gardens without adding to the water bill. My husband was quite impressed; he's been gardening since we bought our home 4 years ago, and has been getting increasingly-successful. So it sounds like he can learn a lot from what they're doing there.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by cagnew

Please do not identify Call to Action as being a part of the Catholic Church, because it is not. The very things it stands for are directly opposed to core Church doctrines- and doctrines cannot be changed. They are not "man-made."

Doctrines are changed quite regularly in the Church. There are some things that will never change:

1) The infallible Papal statements will not change. (Nobody's going to push for the removal of the Immaculate Conception and expect to become Pope). These statements are rare, but they're not going anywhere.

2) The early creeds are not going to change.

3) We won't find a "new book" to add to Scripture.

I could make a huge list.

There are quite a few things that have changed as far as doctrine is concerned. Take, for example, the obvious change of the Church's stance on a Muslim's salvation in the 11th Century and its stance now.

The ideas of science were often something very against the Catholic Church's doctrine. The Church has obviously changed its stance.

If we accept that the Catholic Church does not change doctrines, then we somehow (in a small way) admit that the Church is dead and is not evolving any more.

If you're looking to change the idea of transubstantiation, then the Catholic Church is not for you. If you're a member of the Catholic Church that disagrees with certain things that do not specifically make you "Catholic or not," then you're still welcome.

[cagnew]

As far as something like wearing a veil during Mass, sure, that can change and you can decided whether that is something you want to do.

Core doctrine, infallible statements, can not change. That does not make the Church "dead." The Church is the body of Christ and it is living. Being alive, however, does not mean that you have to be open to changing.

Honestly, I think we are saying the same thing. Perhaps the choice of the word doctrine was not appropriate on my part. I should have better defined what I meant by doctrine, as it is often used to describe different things (as is pointed out in the Catholic dictionary definition).

I would be careful about statements saying that not changing= death. That seems to imply that a Catholic can practice things or believe things that are contrary to Church teaching with the belief that it will someday change. The hot button issues (abortion, birth control, homosexual relationships) cannot change as they directly violate the Churchs stance on life.

[mammal_mama]

I've just discovered that some Catholic churches here in Kansas City are on the worldwide list of gay and lesbian-friendly churches.

And I was wondering how the teachings of these churches might differ from those that aren't gay and lesbian-friendly?

I'm even wondering if someone like me, who believes God created more than 2 distinct sexes (and I believe He creates through the process of Evolution), might be able to join through one of these gay-friendly churches while still being honest about what I do and don't agree with.

Also, I've just heard that the Catholic Church teaches against masturbation, and I am wondering if this is true?

Because of our cultural reality wherein young people aren't ready for marriage until some years AFTER they've reached full sexual maturity, I've been wanting to encourage my own children to feel comfortable with exploring their own bodies and finding ways to meet their own sexual needs until such time as they are ready to marry.

So I'm wondering how Catholics help their children cope with sexuality, without guilt or shame?

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I've just discovered that some Catholic churches here in Kansas City are on the worldwide list of gay and lesbian-friendly churches.

And I was wondering how the teachings of these churches might differ from those that aren't gay and lesbian-friendly?

I'm even wondering if someone like me, who believes God created more than 2 distinct sexes (and I believe He creates through the process of Evolution), might be able to join through one of these gay-friendly churches while still being honest about what I do and don't agree with.

Also, I've just heard that the Catholic Church teaches against masturbation, and I am wondering if this is true?

Because of our cultural reality wherein young people aren't ready for marriage until some years AFTER they've reached full sexual maturity, I've been wanting to encourage my own children to feel comfortable with exploring their own bodies and finding ways to meet their own sexual needs until such time as they are ready to marry.

So I'm wondering how Catholics help their children cope with sexuality, without guilt or shame?

I am going to be as gentle as possible in my response to you. It seems from reading your posts that there are many things you like about the practice of Catholicism yet you want to shoehorn the Church into what you personally believe already rather than accepting Her for what she is. Yes, you will always find pockets of people within the Church who are not abiding by Church teaching. By looking to them for inclusion you are basically ignoring what the Church teaches. I think you really need to enroll in RCIA, get a copy of a Catholic Bible and the CCC and you need to make a thorough reading of Theology of the Body and then you need to come to terms if what you believe can be in accord with what the Church teaches or not.

Basically what you are doing is flirting with the Church. Using a poor analogy, imagine you have met and think you are falling in love with a man. You like many things about him, but you ultimately have core differences that you wish he would change. Would you marry this man? Would you marry him knowing that you have friends who have made a similar choice in a relationship and are still years later working to constantly change integral things about their spouse that are really unchangeable? It would be like spinning your wheels and never getting anywhere.

Yes, masturbation is prohibited. It all reverts back to the teachings on sexuality and marriage. Catholics believe that sex and sexual fulfillment belong in a sacramental marriage only. This means no solo sex, homosexual sex or premarital sex. In fact, it is my understanding that a husband should not ejaculate outside his wife's body because the sex act would still be closed to life. Theology of the Body can help you understand this more.

As for the KC area and liberal parishes, I am sure there are some. Archbishop Naumann is conservative and seems to keep a pretty tight rein on the parishes in his Archdiocese, though. And people of any sexuality are welcome into the Catholic church as participatory members as long as they are abiding by the Church's teachings on appropriate sexual behavior. I believe it is alright for same sex couples to live together as long as they refrain from sexual contact. This can be a very difficult life so many choose to just not court temptation. Once again, same sex couples seem to be the focus of your concern within the Church. There are plenty of legally, civially married heterosexual couples that must remain celibate in their relationship as well because of a past divorce or other situation that makes their current partnership not sacramental. The Church demands celibacy from a lot of people, not just homosexuals.

[mammal_mama]

Thank you, Charbeau, for sharing your heart.

Today I've begun to conclude that I am much more closely leaning toward the Episcopal Church. I also started getting more interested in Episcopal beliefs after learning that one of the women living in and ministering at my neighborhood's Catholic Worker house is Episcopalian.

The research I've done so far is showing me that some Episcopalians also pray to Mary, so there seems to be room for the closeness I am now feeling toward Mary through studying the Catholic Rosary prayers. Some Episcopalians also say the Hail Mary.

So it looks like the Episcopal Church might allow me the room to grow into a greater understanding of these wonderful Catholic mysteries, while also allowing me room to live according to my own conscience (as to the issues I disagree with the Pope about).

I was reading on a discussion board where a more liberal Catholic was talking about living according to his/her conscience, and another Catholic was (it seemed angrily) saying that the Church's teachings ARE your conscience. Period. Or something to that effect.

And I guess this is where I am hitting my brick wall. Expressing a difference of opinion is seen as an attempt to "shoehorn" the church -- albeit the poster is certainly gentle about it, so no offence taken.

There are a few different Episcopal churches here in Kansas City, and though none are in my immediate neighborhood, as in walking distance, they are in pretty close driving distance. So I think I'll start exploring this avenue.

And thanks so much for everyone who's been sharing her heart here! And of course I hope this discussion can continue as long as there are people wanting to discuss.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I was reading on a discussion board where a more liberal Catholic was talking about living according to his/her conscience, and another Catholic was (it seemed angrily) saying that the Church's teachings ARE your conscience. Period. Or something to that effect.

And I guess this is where I am hitting my brick wall. Expressing a difference of opinion is seen as an attempt to "shoehorn" the church -- albeit the poster is certainly gentle about it, so no offence taken.

I think there is room for debate and discussion within Catholicism within certain parameters. Dogma is not up for debate and is unchangeable. Yes, some doctrine has evolved and changed over the 2000 year history of the Church and certainly disciplines have changed. Dogma cannot and will not. And the issues you have with the Church all relate back to dogmas regarding sacraments and the sanctity of life. And that is a big deal, really.

I hope you keep reading and studying and finding your way towards the Church. You have to remember that the Church is here to help its members lead the best life possible and hopefully become saints. I personally no longer view it as oppressive or archaic, though I once did. Through a lot of prayer and study I feel fortunate to understand why the Church teaches what she does even if sometimes I have a hard time accepting those teachings.

Please keep us posted as you make your way through your search. I do know how you feel coming from a very Protestant background myself. It is a foreign idea to submit to an authority outside of your own that you gain from personal prayer and Bible reading. That is what you have always known to be true and it is hard to change routes. The Church isn't like the 30,000+ Protestant denominations in which a person can choose to believe what they like, start a new church and move forward.

One thing I would like to gently correct is your assumption that the Pope controls the Church with an iron fist, like he is the head dictator/pastor of a cult-like enormous group of people. The Pope rarely makes ex cathedra statements and they always relate to faith and morals. The Magisterium of the Church creates and dictates the doctrines and disciplines that we all abide by as Catholics.

Best wishes!

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by cagnew

Core doctrine, infallible statements, can not change. That does not make the Church "dead."

That was what I said.