What do you think would happen... - Page 3

[bbrandonsmom]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that as cold at all-maybe bad wording. I'm just meaning that for evolution, I think maybe if we stopped vaxing, there are cultures or people with certain genes who will evolve better than others. It's the same now-we are all evolving differently, but I think if stopped vaxing, in say 50-100yrs, it might be more noticable? Of course demographics, nutrition etc would have to factor in as well.
I don't see the world as a whole stopping vaxing though. I think there is a place for many vaccines-if they can find one that will cure cancer, or ebola, or anything else that's life threatening that's awesome.
Kim-I've almost lost my son this year, he does have an imm problem, and I've have had 2mc, so I do cherish life. I'm just looking at this topic as more scientific and taking emotion out of it.

[miriam]

I believe that many will be fine, but I also believe many more will die. Children with comprOmised immune systems, cancers, or who are born too early will die at a much more alarming rate.

Aren't there too many children dying of vaccine reactions now? There are plenty of studies that have been done linking the P portion of the DPT to SIDS. Aren't those children worth living? As for cancer, there are plenty of studies that link cancer as a reaction to vaccines as the first polio vaccines, for example, that have caused brain tumors in baby boomers as young adults. I lost many friends that I grew up with to brain tumors.

I, too, believe that each child's life is important and precious and will not sacrifice my child to the religion of modern medicine with a vaccine reaction.

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by miriam

Aren't there too many children dying of vaccine reactions now? There are plenty of studies that have been done linking the P portion of the DPT to SIDS. Aren't those children worth living? As for cancer, there are plenty of studies that link cancer as a reaction to vaccines as the first polio vaccines, for example, that have caused brain tumors in baby boomers as young adults. I lost many friends that I grew up with to brain tumors.

I, too, believe that each child's life is important and precious and will not sacrifice my child to the religion of modern medicine with a vaccine reaction.

:

Realistically, I don't think vaccines will ever go away, at least not in our lifetimes. So for those who feel that their children "need" vaccines due to their compromised immune systems, the vaccines should always be available to them. And if the vaccines really worked, there should be nothing to fear because the vaccines would be protecting the vaccinated, even if the majority of the population actually stopped vaccinating, right?

The OP's question was if we thought there would be a "MAJOR" increase in the "VPD's" and I still say no, and refer to my original post on this thread, because historically, the evidence just isn't there, since all the diseases significantly declined long before the vaccines were ever invented. So, if everyone stopped vaccinating, we might expect somewhat of an increase in the rates of the diseases...maybe, or maybe not. In regards to the UK's increase in measles cases, I wouldn't call that a "major" increase. I wouldn't call measles a "life-threatening" illness either, for a healthy child that receives proper nutrition, sunshine and love. Does anyone know how many of the measles cases in the UK were in vaccinated children? So, doesn't that mean that the vaccine doesn't actually work? So what is the point of a vaccine that doesn't work, which has a huge list of adverse effects as stated by the manufacturer, and those adverse effects include death and many vaccine-induced injuries/conditions that are much worse than measles?

If everyone stopped vaccinating, would we see a drop in the rates of asthma, ADD, leukemia, type I diabetes, SIDS, autism, etc.? I've seen enough evidence to answer yes to that.

[13Sandals]

Originally Posted by miriam

This will never happen. So do not worry.

To tell the truth, IF it did happen, doctors would over-diagnose the vaccine preventable diseases by simply diagnosing by clinical observation, not ordering laboratory results. This is ridiculous since most doctors under the age of sixty have not typically seen a real case of measles, mumps, rubella, or other diseases. I suspect that they have, but they do not diagnose or report these diseases since they assume the vaccines do the job....

And the health officials would be screaming epidemic! from every venue on every media.

they are already diagnosing pertussis left and right now that there are adult boosters available. and anything that resembles measles is now diagnosed as measles...that little rash many break out in in the week following MMR vaccination will now be diagnosed as measles (instead of coincidence) and they will blame the non-vaxers for it.

but I agree with most - vpd's will come back in a mild way and all the 'a's will go way down - asd, add, adhd, asthma, allergies...every one of them. Also, it would take a while to show - but I imagine the non-vaxed when they reach adulthood will also have fewer autoimmune issues.

[13Sandals]

[QUOTE=carriebft;14290017]

We have evidence that pertussis rates are higher in areas that have high vaccination refusal.

well, we certainly have evidence that doctors are more willing to diagnose pertussis in areas with high vaccination refusal.

We have plenty of information on the hib cases seen these days as being almost exclusively in unvaccinated or undervaccinated kids (with most being in the former category)

the 'outbreak' last year killed five - 3 unvaccinated, 2 vaccinated. not that big a difference - and since the media doesn't tell us other things that tend to effect Hib - like breastfeeding status, etc we don't have enough info to see if the vaccines or lack of them had anything to do with it....they never tracked HiB cases before the vaccine came out -so we actually have NO idea about the numbers prevaccine- and if you read the' initial HiB vaccine trials, you will see that several populations had steep rises in HiB cases once they began the vaccination push. For the FDA approval, the data from populations who experienced disease increases post-vax was eliminated as 'anomalies'. Mendelsohn wrote a series of articles on the initial approval process for HiB. Very interesting read and a great example of the reasons it is nearly impossible to evaluate a true risk/benefit for most of the vaccines we have today.

[miriam]

...but I imagine the non-vaxed when they reach adulthood will also have fewer autoimmune issues.

The allergists will be looking for work?

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by 13Sandals

they are already diagnosing pertussis left and right now that there are adult boosters available. and anything that resembles measles is now diagnosed as measles...that little rash many break out in in the week following MMR vaccination will now be diagnosed as measles (instead of coincidence) and they will blame the non-vaxers for it.

but I agree with most - vpd's will come back in a mild way and all the 'a's will go way down - asd, add, adhd, asthma, allergies...every one of them. Also, it would take a while to show - but I imagine the non-vaxed when they reach adulthood will also have fewer autoimmune issues.

I don't know why, but I didn't put two and two together until you said this. A few months back, a coworker was diagnosed w/ Pertussis and was asking me for alternative ideas on handling the symptoms. I was trying to get more information about her illness...and was almost 100% sure she didn't have WC. She didn't have the cough. She had been sick for almost 1 week. And she didn't have the discharge.

At the 2 week mark, she was well. She told me she was glad she listened to the doctor and took abx over my suggestion to take vit. c because she got well so fast! :

lol! Now I know.

[carriebft]

A better description of the hib deaths: 3 unvaccinated, 1 undervaccinated, and 1 with a immune disease that made vaccination worthless. But also the fact that, of the 13 cases this year, 11 were unvaccinated and 1 had 1 vaccine and 1 was fully vaccinated.

So, yes, i definitely think you would see more hib cases if not for the vaccine-- even if the pre-vaccine numbers were exaggerated, we only have 13 this year so far with the vaccine-- can anyone really tell me you think we would have the same or less without the vaccine? show me some kind of study or information to support that hypothesis...

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by carriebft

So, yes, i definitely think you would see more hib cases if not for the vaccine-- even if the pre-vaccine numbers were exaggerated, we only have 13 this year so far with the vaccine-- can anyone really tell me you think we would have the same or less without the vaccine? show me some kind of study or information to support that hypothesis...

Here are 2 references, thanks to Dr. Sherri Tenpenny for her research in "Saying No To Vaccines": J Infect Dis. 1988 Aug; 158 (2) 343-8. "Spectrum of disease due to Haemophilus influenzae tpe b occurring in vaccinated children." and, Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1990 Aug;9 (8): 555-61. "Safety evaluation of PRP-D Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine in children."

According to those references, 228 cases of H. influenza b meningitis were reported in children who had been vaccinated with this vaccine. (So that means that the vaccine caused the disease that it was meant to prevent, or the vaccine just didn't work at all)

"Breast feeding confers natural protection against H. influenza and the HIB vaccine eliminated that protection, increasing the risk of meningitis." pg. 64 of "Saying No To Vaccines" by Sherri Tenpenny.

[ema-adama]

With HIB I think just not vaccinating and then not informing parents about the benefits of exclusive breastfeeding and the important of a smoke free environment etc, would result in an increase of HIB menigitis.

Not vaccinating has to go hand in hand with information on how to promote health in babies. And a shift in paradigm from looking at children as general statistics, to developing personalised care for each child, based on their individual circumstances. Not every child is equally at risk.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

Here are 2 references, thanks to Dr. Sherri Tenpenny for her research in "Saying No To Vaccines": J Infect Dis. 1988 Aug; 158 (2) 343-8. "Spectrum of disease due to Haemophilus influenzae tpe b occurring in vaccinated children." and, Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1990 Aug;9 (8): 555-61. "Safety evaluation of PRP-D Haemophilus influenzae type b conjugate vaccine in children."

According to those references, 228 cases of H. influenza b meningitis were reported in children who had been vaccinated with this vaccine. (So that means that the vaccine caused the disease that it was meant to prevent, or the vaccine just didn't work at all)

"Breast feeding confers natural protection against H. influenza and the HIB vaccine eliminated that protection, increasing the risk of meningitis." pg. 64 of "Saying No To Vaccines" by Sherri Tenpenny.

I would like to see a link on that hib one to see the ages of the children. The current hib vaccine was licensed in 1987- the one used prior to that in the mid to late 80s was not very effective. So, a study from 1990 may be looking at the wrong vaccine; hence, it would mean little to nothing in this discussion.

And I don't see how the second one proves the hypothesis that, without the vaccine, we would have the same or less number of cases (ie, less than 30-40 per year).

[carriebft]

As I suspected, the study Tenpenny uses is for the old hib vaccine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3261314

[13Sandals]

But also the fact that, of the 13 cases this year, 11 were unvaccinated and 1 had 1 vaccine and 1 was fully vaccinated.

I don't trust this statistic, and here's why:
HiB shares symptoms with other diseases, so a test is needed in every case to confirm its presence. Blood to confirm HiB pneumonia, spinal fluid to confirm HiB meningitis. Don't you think there may be a bias in who undergoes testing? Isn't possible that docs are more likely to test suspected cases of Hib in the unvaxed population? If the kid comes in with Hib pneumonia, but has had the full vax series, isn't the doc likely to say, oh that's probably not it. The course of treatment would be antibiotics anyway. There could have been 29 cases of HiB in vaxed kids that were assumed to be seasonal flu related. Once antibiotics are given, it tends to mask the presence of HiB, making the tests unreliable - and how many kids get to the pneumonia stage without antibiotics?

However, I do agree there may be an increase in vpds if we stopped vaxing. But for things like HiB that don't have an individually defining symptom - you really have to apply critical thinking to stats like this.

[larkedyflarp]

Someone mentioned evolution and my mom and I were just talking about how vaccinations are leading to all these autoimmune diseases and how are immune systems are not being allowed to work the way they are supposed to.

We jumped to the conclusion that this will eventually lead to people with no immune systems- I jokingly said it would be a great Sci-Fi novel called "Bubble People"