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Changing "Birth Language" - Page 3

post #41 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace+Hope View Post
what do you guys think about the language suggested by hypnobirthing people - like surges instead of contractions?

i agree, language is very powerful. when i had my early miscarriage, googling and coming up with "chemical pregnancy" made me question whether it was even valid, as an experience, to be processed.... i got over that
I like "surges" better....but I don't love it BEST. Just better than contractions. I don't have a word I really like for that yet....maybe Ill make one up?


I think that different terms apply to different types of birth.

For instance....I am generally opposed to the term "Delivered" when used by OBs/MWs/Nurses, etc...because a woman delivers the baby...it doesn't take a lot but waiting around to catch a baby! But the sad fact is, that there are some women who aren't really involved in their birthing experience...I mean, there are some women who don't even know when they are having a ctx and have to be told when to push because they can't feel any urge to....I don't know. In some cases, I think it is appropriate to say "managed" and to say that an OB "delivered" a baby. Edit to add: To clarify, I think that has more to do with the mama handing over the reigns than WHERE it is that she gives birth. Some women give birth in a hospital, but still deliver their own babies. Some women don't WANT to be that active in their birth and gladly hand over the reigns to an OB....in which case, I think the OB DID deliver the baby.

I don't like words that make the process of birth seem like anything less than a wild, spiritual, intimate experience....but for some women it's not that...so what do you do? Some women like a medicalized birth...it makes them feel more comfortable with the whole thing...so...what do you do?

I guess we all use the lingo that feels right to us...and that reflects our "birth dialect"....shows where we are coming from, when it comes to the subject of birth.

Me.....I prefer the company of crows, a river, some trees and my strange wonderful husband, when I dance my birth dance....when I think of birth, it is words like: magic, energy, great creative spark, goddess power, universe, joy, earth, euphoria, sorceress, meditation and Rrrrraaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!! which come to the tip of my tongue.....

But some people think of birth and the words doctor, stirrups, contraction, dilation, epidural, sterilized, shot, managed, ping ping ping (you know, those "pinging" machines!)....etc, come to their mind. And I don't think either is more or less "right" just more or less "right" for ME.

We all come from different places and to be honest, I really like that our "birth dialect" reflects those differences...kind of like food is different from different regions of the US....that's great. I like it. I like knowing, that if I'm visiting someone who hails from the south...that I can expect an awesome freakin' breakfast....and that a friend from the North is best to have around in winter, when a good roast or oxtail soup hits the spot.....I don't know how that has anything to do with birth....I think I'm just hungry...so I'm going to wrap this up!

The End.
post #42 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belle View Post
I dislike both terms. I don't think a word exists that can accurately describe what I felt in labor. I think "waves" is closest but it doesn't sound intense enough.
The most accurate term I can think of for what I experienced in labor would be "slow application of a chainsaw to my spine."

Also, I think I'd have beat the crap out of anyone who tried to call them "surges" while I was experiencing that.
post #43 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
I don't like words that make the process of birth seem like anything less than a wild, spiritual, intimate experience....
i love that! and i am totally going to ask my midwives about the language they use and what language we all feel comfortable with for my birth.
post #44 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace+Hope View Post
i love that! and i am totally going to ask my midwives about the language they use and what language we all feel comfortable with for my birth.
I think every woman should..language is so powerful...that's why I wanted so little of it present at my birth. My DH and I are excellent silent communicators, so that worked. His touch and mere presence brought so much more peace and love than any words he spoke ever could have.

The right language can put a totally different spin on your birth....with a bit of creativity and a whimsical spirit, more magic can be brought to a birth than many might imagine...

P.S.: I can't get over the "Gates of Life" comment made on this thread...I keep turning it over in my head and I really like it, it's starting to stick with me. My DH thinks he is such a cool kid, because he gets to have the "family jewels" - well how about this??? I have the damn GATES OF LIFE between my legs....so try that on for size, mister!
post #45 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pookel View Post
The most accurate term I can think of for what I experienced in labor would be "slow application of a chainsaw to my spine."

Also, I think I'd have beat the crap out of anyone who tried to call them "surges" while I was experiencing that.



I love it. "Oh honey, are you having a surge??" - No, I'm having an URGE, the next person who says "surge" is gonna get it!

My birth was a really awesome experience for me, the best of my whole life....but there were about 2 minutes of transition which were like...OMG....you know? Well, my midwife slept through my birth pretty much, I didn't want anyone there at all but me and my DH (he wanted MWs for "back up")...well they had a student girl with them who was just trying to be nice...but she ignored my birth wishes and walked in, unfortunately for her, right smack dab in the middle of those two minutes from hell....and said "You are a strong and powerful woman!" - the look I shot her, I'm sure, froze her very soul....she made a quick exit and didn't come in again....poor girl...I think she probably thought she saw satan in my eyes that night...

"You are a strong and powerful woman!" - I can't think of anything she could have said, that would have sounded more infuriating or ridiculous at that moment!!!
post #46 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
Leave her alone, she's entitled to her feelings about her experiences in the OR....she didn't say "Eery woman who has had c-sections should hate her experience and feel a bittersweetness about their childrens entry into this world" - she said:

"I Hate it."

And she's allowed to.I can't imagine enduring everthing StormBride has been through and I think she's more than entitled to her feelings regarding surgical extraction of babies from their mothers womb.

Every isn't okay with c/sections....everyone doesn't have a lovely experience. Every can't get to the point where they say "well, at least s/he got here safe" and feel peace at what happened - and that's okay.

Sometimes life destroys you inside and you don't know how long you're going to walk around feeling that way....but pretending you don't feel that way won't bring you to a better place of healing any sooner. It's okay to be devastated, it's okay to hate your c/section.

She wasn't saying everyone has to hate it....she wasn't saying everyone has to feel the way she does....but you know what? I know more women who secretly hate and feel violated by their c-sections, who put on a peaceful front about it in front of people, than you could shake a stick at. I'm sick of that. It's okay to think it sucked, it doesn't mean you are somehow not grateful for your healthy kids....
Sorry. I own my words. She can own hers. Trying to dictate to others that their birth experiences weren't birth is just not right. Just as denying that she had a terrible experience isn't right. This thread is about birth language in general -- not about birth language as it applies to a specific person. When responding to this thread, she was responding to something general, and I'm not the only one who took offense.

************

I did HypnoBabies, and we used "pressure waves" for contractions and "birthing time" for labor. Honestly, it didn't make much of a difference for me, though I can see how it might for others. I just found myself having to explain what I meant to my midwives and nurses since I wasn't using the language they were accustomed to, and it sort of just got in the way for me.
post #47 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLA View Post
Sorry. I own my words. She can own hers. Trying to dictate to others that their birth experiences weren't birth is just not right. Just as denying that she had a terrible experience isn't right. This thread is about birth language in general -- not about birth language as it applies to a specific person. When responding to this thread, she was responding to something general, and I'm not the only one who took offense.

<snip>.
Okay, cool, "dude"...bu that's not what she said at all. At least that's not the way I took it. She wasn't telling anyone how to feel and actually, she is a poster who does that very very little, I find.

She doesn't NEED you to hate your birth experience....she was simply pointing out that the more surgical terms used for c/s fit better with the way she felt about her experience...so yeah, she stated her personal belief in reply to a general question....and you stated your personal belief in response to a general question....who is wrong? No one, because you're both entitled to your personal beliefs in relation to a general question....who among us can answer a question, general or not, without replying on our personal experience/feelings to do so?

There HAS been a trend toward a general acceptance of c/s as a legitimate way of giving birth. My personal feelings on the subject don't matter...what matters is that there are many women who do NOT feel that it "counts" as a legitimate BIRTH...and who are devastated that they had to have a c/s....and are only further devastated by all these happy smiling faces sitting around talking about how great their c/s was. All that does is make women who are devestated by their c/s's feel even worse, like somehow the hate they feel toward their birth is not valid.

Which leads me back to MY answer to the OPs question about birth language...I don't think there can be A birth language...I think that there have to be birth dialects...the same lingo is not going to "work" for all people.

Some people who have had c/s, think that it is a disgusting, horrible way of giving birth.....and that is valid. Some women feel that it is the preferred method of delivering! That's a little crazy to me, but valid all the same. Most women who have c/s are able to make peace with it and through time and healing to whatever degree, can celebrate the birth. All three types of women are valid in their feelings...all three types might use different lingo to discuss their births. No biggie. It's called life.
post #48 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
Okay, cool, "dude"...bu that's not what she said at all. At least that's not the way I took it. She wasn't telling anyone how to feel and actually, she is a poster who does that very very little, I find.

She doesn't NEED you to hate your birth experience....she was simply pointing out that the more surgical terms used for c/s fit better with the way she felt about her experience...so yeah, she stated her personal belief in reply to a general question....and you stated your personal belief in response to a general question....who is wrong? No one, because you're both entitled to your personal beliefs in relation to a general question....who among us can answer a question, general or not, without replying on our personal experience/feelings to do so?
And there's the issue. That's how I took it. And my feelings on the matter are no less valid than yours or hers. And I'm not sure why you're speaking for her. I'm sure she can speak for herself if she feels the need to do so.

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this thread because really it's just ticking me off.
post #49 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLA View Post
And there's the issue. That's how I took it. And my feelings on the matter are no less valid than yours or hers. And I'm not sure why you're speaking for her. I'm sure she can speak for herself if she feels the need to do so.

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this thread because really it's just ticking me off.
I'm sorry you took it that way. I'm sorry you are mad. REally and honestly...I'm sorry if I was way over the top snarky. I'm laid up with a pulled muscle and my SIL took my baby for the day...so I've got nothing but way too much time and raging hormones and I didn't mean to spew negative energy at you.


I don't know that I've ever encountered a poster more capable of speaking for herself than StormBride....but I wasn't even really speaking for her, so much as every woman who has ever felt like our society places expectations on the way we're supposed to view ourselves and birthers/mothers.

I feel like a lot of women put on happy faces about their births (c/s's or otherwise) because they think it makes others feel uncomfortable to hear "I hated my birth, it felt like a rape and I don't know how to get through it at all" - but the truth is, some women do feel that way. A lot of women, actually...and I feel like sometimes the attitude is "Well, at least you have a healthy baby to show for it" - I've just known so many women who had to wade through so much guilt at their own feelings..on top of trying to process the feelings at the same time! I guess I get really sensitive about it and I'm sorry if I came off as super intense...I really feel super intense right now and I'm not sure why.

I'm sorry.
post #50 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belle View Post
I heard about a bumper sticker that was given out at an ACOG conference or something like that once. It said "Home deliveries are for pizza" I agree. I don't think the words "birth" and "delivery" are interchangeable.
Unfortunately, this was to mock and discredit homebirth.
post #51 of 73
I am trying to find a way to respond to this thread and yet remain within the UA. I am revolted by the statements that women who give birth by cesarean have not really given birth or don't really love or want their children. my dd was born by emergency cesarean when my bp spiked to deadly levels due to pre-e. I love her as much as my homebirthed child and wanted her just as much. I challenge anyone who says i did not really give birth to her. And i pity anyone who feels this way who then ends up needing a cesarean to save either themselves or their child.
post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwerydd View Post
I am trying to find a way to respond to this thread and yet remain within the UA. I am revolted by the statements that women who give birth by cesarean have not really given birth or don't really love or want their children. my dd was born by emergency cesarean when my bp spiked to deadly levels due to pre-e. I love her as much as my homebirthed child and wanted her just as much. I challenge anyone who says i did not really give birth to her. And i pity anyone who feels this way who then ends up needing a cesarean to save either themselves or their child.
I had my first two children via uncomplicated vaginal births. My third was delivered by Cesarean section, and the surgery was necessary to save his life. I love him exactly as much as my other children. I still do not consider the surgery to be a birth.
To me, it is a question of (A) accuracy and (B) using language which respects the birth process. It has nothing to do with how a woman feels about the experience. Some women are as traumatized by their vaginal birth as others are by their Cesarean section. It has nothing to do with how a mother feels about her baby, either.
Proponents of natural childbirth and mother-friendly care have spent decades trying to establish that birth is a normal, natural physiological process, not a medical procedure. Birth is something our bodies do of their own accord, like circulating blood or digesting food. Having abdominal surgery is not birth. It is a way to bypass birth, when actual birth would be dangerous to the baby. I had a Cesarean because my son could not be born safely; he was delivered surgically instead.
I hate to hear women buying into the attitude many OBs take, that there are two kinds of childbirth, birth "from below" (vaginal) and birth "from above" (Cesarean section). Nope. There is childbirth, and there is surgery. Two different things.
Again, this does not have any bearing on the mother's relationship with her child, or the family's feelings about their baby. To use another example, I would never suggest that adoptive parents did not love their babies, or that they were not the child's real parents. But if they stated that the adoption of their baby was literally a birth, I would have to disagree. It casts no aspersions on their parenthood, but birth is something real and specific, not just any event connected with new family members.
post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
I had my first two children via uncomplicated vaginal births. My third was delivered by Cesarean section, and the surgery was necessary to save his life. I love him exactly as much as my other children. I still do not consider the surgery to be a birth.
To me, it is a question of (A) accuracy and (B) using language which respects the birth process. It has nothing to do with how a woman feels about the experience. Some women are as traumatized by their vaginal birth as others are by their Cesarean section. It has nothing to do with how a mother feels about her baby, either.
Proponents of natural childbirth and mother-friendly care have spent decades trying to establish that birth is a normal, natural physiological process, not a medical procedure. Birth is something our bodies do of their own accord, like circulating blood or digesting food. Having abdominal surgery is not birth. It is a way to bypass birth, when actual birth would be dangerous to the baby. I had a Cesarean because my son could not be born safely; he was delivered surgically instead.
I hate to hear women buying into the attitude many OBs take, that there are two kinds of childbirth, birth "from below" (vaginal) and birth "from above" (Cesarean section). Nope. There is childbirth, and there is surgery. Two different things.
Again, this does not have any bearing on the mother's relationship with her child, or the family's feelings about their baby. To use another example, I would never suggest that adoptive parents did not love their babies, or that they were not the child's real parents. But if they stated that the adoption of their baby was literally a birth, I would have to disagree. It casts no aspersions on their parenthood, but birth is something real and specific, not just any event connected with new family members.
It is accurate to call a c-section a birth. The definition of birth in my Webster dictionary is : the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent. So that would include a c-section. And the birth process sometimes includes a c-section, so I don't see how it is disrespectful to call the time my child seperated from me and entered the world birth.

ETA: A c-section is so much more then a surgery. It can be (not always, just like a vaginal birth) an amazing experience when a child enters into the world. Calling it just a surgery makes it seem like it is no more important an event then having your wisdom teeth removed. It is birth, a surgical birth, but still birth.
post #54 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post
Unfortunately, this was to mock and discredit homebirth.
I know. But its the use of the word "delivery" that I take issue with. I didn't "deliver" at home and nobody "delivered" my baby. I gave birth.
post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix23 View Post
Calling it just a surgery makes it seem like it is no more important an event then having your wisdom teeth removed. It is birth, a surgical birth, but still birth.
It is still an important event to the parents and child. The problem is the way the word birth is used for a purely medical event, rather than something a woman's body accomplishes on its own. If the definition of childbirth can include being cut open by a surgeon and having the baby removed through the incision, we have to give up describing birth as a "normal, natural physiological process." I think it would be a step backward, since many of us have worked so hard to establish that birth is a normal function of the female body, rather than something doctors perform on us.
post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayaMama View Post
so the women that don't truly want kids and schedule a c-section because their doctor told them too should have to deal with insensitive terms regarding their child's birth?

i really hope i'm reading this wrong because it comes across awfully negative to other mamas.

and a quick question regarding c-sections not being births because i'm not sure i understand how it is that a woman's body can create another living creature and that baby leaves her body and it is not called a birth? is it only a birth if the baby leaves through the "proper" exit? should those babies _not_ be allowed to have birth days, as they were "surgically extracted" not birthed?

what about "birthing" ideas? the concept of birthing something does not require an exit of the body through the vagina.

fwiw, i've never had a c-section but i know several women that have and i know they birthed their babies just like i did. to be honest, it seems like this is participating in the removal of power from women in the area of birthing just like many on mdc are fighting against. it takes the contribution of the woman (growing, nurturing, making, and feeding a baby) and reduces her to an incubator status while someone else gets the credit for actually birthing the baby.
:

It also borderlines on derogatory towards babies who were born via caesarian.
post #57 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
It is still an important event to the parents and child. The problem is the way the word birth is used for a purely medical event, rather than something a woman's body accomplishes on its own. If the definition of childbirth can include being cut open by a surgeon and having the baby removed through the incision, we have to give up describing birth as a "normal, natural physiological process." I think it would be a step backward, since many of us have worked so hard to establish that birth is a normal function of the female body, rather than something doctors perform on us.
But it is not just a purely medical event. Since it involves the BIRTH of my child, it is so much more. Maybe what should be changed is the definition of childbirth. Vaginal childbirth is a normal, natural process, surgical childbirth isn't, but it is still the birth of a child.
post #58 of 73
Quote:
I think it would be a step backward, since many of us have worked so hard to establish that birth is a normal function of the female body, rather than something doctors perform on us.
I was lucky enough to have two vaginal deliveries, so I don't have personal experience with csection. But my mom was lied to and forced to have a csection (me) and I remember her fighting to have VBACs. 29 years later she still speaks bitterly of my birth. That is my background.

One thing I was thinking about while reading this thread is that Marsden Wagner says that a 10-15% csection rate is optimal. Too high and unnecessary csections with their associated complications are performed (US). Too LOW and women/children are dying/damaged when csections are not performed (some developing countries).

So, 1 out of 10 women NEED a csection. That is a lot of women. They grow their babies and their babies exit their bodies through one opening or another.

Isn't that birth?
post #59 of 73
And to add to that, I was born via csection. But my birthday is still my birthday

I do agree with changing some language. The other day a woman remarked, "nowadays they don't let you go late."

Um, what? LET YOU? *I* am letting another person assist me in labor. I will decide what is best for me and my baby.

And no one but me delivered my baby. My midwives assisted me and my husband caught our baby. *I* did the work. And if I had a csection, I think I'd say the same thing. I grew the baby and it was liberated from me, with assistance.

And my contractions were not surges. They were contractions! Yowza
post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirll View Post
I was lucky enough to have two vaginal deliveries, so I don't have personal experience with csection. But my mom was lied to and forced to have a csection (me) and I remember her fighting to have VBACs. 29 years later she still speaks bitterly of my birth. That is my background.

One thing I was thinking about while reading this thread is that Marsden Wagner says that a 10-15% csection rate is optimal. Too high and unnecessary csections with their associated complications are performed (US). Too LOW and women/children are dying/damaged when csections are not performed (some developing countries).

So, 1 out of 10 women NEED a csection. That is a lot of women. They grow their babies and their babies exit their bodies through one opening or another.

Isn't that birth?

It is the birth of that child. I'm not going to act like my children were never even born.
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