How to address this? 8yo stealing and lying

[sanguine_speed]

I don't know what to do about this, and so I told dd this was serious and we would talk tomorrow. I've packed all of my GD reference books as we're about to move.

The backstory:
We live across the street from a convenience store. We visit regularly as a family, and the girls can spend their allowance there if they wish. dd1 (who is 8) had recently been asking to go by herself, or with her sister (who is 5) and we've firmly said no. The reasons we do not want them going by themselves are that they do not know how to properly count cost/money, there are often large groups of rowdy teenagers nearby whom I am nervous about, and the store is across a very busy street and has a very busy parking lot. dd had been asking today several times if she could go, and we'd said no. We said no for the aforementioned reasons, but also because she had already spent all of her allowance and didn't have money anyway.

Well, dd went to visit her friend down the street, as she does often. This friend is 9. A while later she came home, saying she came home because she fell and hurt her head. After that, the friend's mother came over to tell us what happened. I am sick and was napping, but dp talked to the friend's mom. Turns out the girls went to the store, and stole some candy. The store worker saw them as they left the store and made them come back with it to return it. I'm not clear how the mom found out about this. The mom said the girls were told by the store worker not to come back.

I woke up just a few minutes ago and dp told me what he knew about what happened. dd came in looking for comfort, and as soon as she saw me she started crying and sucking her thumb (something she only does when she is quite upset). I held her and kissed her and told her I love her and told her what happened is serious and that we will talk more about it tomorrow.

Some background: dd has been very reliable and has been taking on more responsibility lately, especially when it comes to spending time out in the neighbourhood. She wears a watch and ccomes home when she is supposed to, even when that's an hour or an hour-and-a-half later than when she left (she remembers the time). She often comes home midway through her outing to let me know she's going somewhere else before going elsewhere (i.e. if she was at her friend's house and they're going to the park, she'll come by and ask/let me know before going).
Once before, she and her sister stole pieces of gum from the same store while they were there with their dad. Dad was watching the toddler and didn't notice. When we did notice we took them back to the store to pay for the gum with their own money. This was a few months ago.
We have been concerned about this friend before as they apparently went out to play on the friend's roof a few weeks ago :. The girls only met recently as the girl is new to the neighbourhood. I knew about the roof because dd told me. I did hear her tell her friend on the phone that they shouldn't go on the roof anymore.

So, what do I do?

My concerns are: I don't want dd to stop telling me anything out of fear of the consequences. I was glad she told me about going on the roof. she did not tell me about this episode of going to the store and stealing though, so perhaps she already feels she shouldn't tell when she's done something wrong.
Also, I'm concerned about creating a 'forbidden fruit' scenario with this friend. I am not sure keeping the friends apart is useful because they live so closeby that I'm almost setting dd up for failure if I tell her not to see this friend. I'd basically have to repeal all of her freedom to not set her up.
I don't know how to respond to the lying or stealing. I don't want to convey that she's bad, but I do want to convey that these actions aren't okay. The last (and first) time she stole (the gum), we had a talk about what stealing means and why we don't do it, and how she would feel if she was stolen from etc.

Further, dd is very sensitive and I know she is upset about this by her reaction. I don't think she needs any sort of provocation of emotional response in order to get it or understand the seriousness of what happened.

Ideas, please?

[heartmama]

It is hard for me to address the specific situation which happened because the degree of autonomy given to your 8 year old is above and beyond what I experienced as a child and what my own ds experienced at that age. It is beyond my experiences to believe most 8 year olds possess the maturity and good judgement to handle the long periods of unsupervised time your dd has in your neighborhood, without winding up doing something along the lines of what your dd did.

Having said that, I do accept that some 8 year olds can handle the kind of autonomy you give your daughter. I am sure there are parents of children who do fine with a large dose of "free range childhood" which is the current term for it. However, it seems clear your own daughter is showing you she is not ready for the level of freedom she has right now.

It sounds like she is very persistent and bright, and if she were my child, I would keep her days perhaps more structured with busy activity, and involve her in my routine, and have her friends over to our own house where I could keep an eye on them. Go back to an earlier boundary--perhaps she is fine walking to her friends house, calling to check in, and calling again when she is ready to leave--however if her friend has no parents home, I would *not* let her go over there. At 8 years old there needs to be an adult on the property. I am not saying to take away all gestures of independence--I am saying, manage her freedom carefully, making absolutely sure she is *showing you* she is emotionally and psychologically prepared for each new step. She has been given more than she can handle, and needs the boundaries redrawn to an earlier stage which she was able to handle.

As far as the stealing and lying I am not sure why you are holding back a strong response. She could have gone to jail. If you think they wouldn't do that to an 8 and 9 year old--the headlines show otherwise. That was so incredibly serious that with my own ds the entire rest of the week would have been spent productively demostrating to him the consequences of stealing.

First, he would be taken to the store to apology to the owner. I would expect ds to offer restitution, to clean, or do some other chore, if the owner would permit it. A letter of apology would also be sent.

Second, we would visit a police headquarters (the kind with a holding jail--not a real prison/jail which I do think would be inappropriate at this age). I would ask the policeman to go over the consequences of theft, what happens when a person is caught, and what punishment they might be given by society.

Third, I would listen twice as much as I talked. I would be getting my ds to reflect on what he thought--getting him to talk aloud and connect the dots between what he did and what might have happened to him.

I am a firm believer in being very up front with children about these types of situations. I love ds unconditionally, however that love alone does nothing to help him make good decisions and/or comprehend the consequences of crime. Past the age of 5 or 6 I absolutely think children should be given as much factual information as possible about how society may interpret and respond to their behavior. I am not raising ds to live within the 4 walls of my house. He has to live in the world--a world which has serious consequences.

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by heartmama

It is hard for me to address the specific situation which happened because the degree of autonomy given to your 8 year old is above and beyond what I experienced as a child and what my own ds experienced at that age. It is beyond my experiences to believe most 8 year olds possess the maturity and good judgement to handle the long periods of unsupervised time your dd has in your neighborhood, without winding up doing something along the lines of what your dd did.

-however if her friend has no parents home, I would *not* let her go over there. At 8 years old there needs to be an adult on the property. I am not saying to take away all gestures of independence--I am saying, manage her freedom carefully, making absolutely sure she is *showing you* she is emotionally and psychologically prepared for each new step. She has been given more than she can handle, and needs the boundaries redrawn to an earlier stage which she was able to handle.

As far as the stealing and lying I am not sure why you are holding back a strong response. She could have gone to jail. If you think they wouldn't do that to an 8 and 9 year old--the headlines show otherwise. That was so incredibly serious that with my own ds the entire rest of the week would have been spent productively demostrating to him the consequences of stealing.

.

Woah! First, my daughter has proven over several months that she has been capable of managing. Yes, I agree she is showing that she is no longer managing well enough to be given such a length of freedom, and I have already stated reining in is an appropriate response. I never let her go to friend's houses without knowing where she is or that there is an adult home. When I say she goes out, I mean literally on our street or the next street playing outside with her friends riding bikes in front of the houses, or playing on swingsets in their backyards. She rarely goes into anyone's house and never without permission. We always know where to find her, have met the parents of any house she goes into, and have phone numbers to call them at any time.

You are incorrect that she would go to jail! My goodness! In Canada, the legal age of criminal responsibility is TWELVE. She is EIGHT. I'm not marching her down to the police. I think that is horrible. You moderate Gentle Discipline and think 8-year-olds go to jail for trying to steal candy?

Honestly, I think your response is a major overreaction to an eight-year-old's misjudgment.

What we did do was to explain to dd that she will have to stay within sight distance for a couple of days, and that she will be given shorter lengths of time away from home without direct sight for a while until she can demonstrate that she can be reliable and trustworthy again.
We also talked about how to say no when she knows something is wrong. I won't blame the other child, but this girl is new to the neighbourhood, is older than dd, and generally seems a negative influence. We talked about how to say no, and what alternatives there are if she is afraid of being teased or harmed for refusing to go along with a bad plan.
Of course, we also talked about the concept of stealing, and why it is wrong.

[LynnS6]

Our 8 year old has similar neighborhood freedoms, but we live in a suburban neighborhood with no tempting stores within walking distance. But he's free to walk or ride his bike the 2 blocks over to a friend's house. He goes out to play at other kids' houses - the only rule is that he tells us when he's going somewhere different.

I would do two more things in addition to what you've done. I would have your daughter write a letter of apology to the store manager. I would also limit playing with the new friend to YOUR house. So it's not forbidden fruit, but you do have more control until you get a sense of whether this child is someone you want to become busy enough to avoid! With school starting soon, there's often a natural break in summer time friendships.

I would also think about making sure she wears nothing with pockets and/or turns out her pockets if it happens again. Once is a trial balloon, twice can be chalked up to bad impulse control, three times would worry me greatly.

FWIW, I think what heartmama meant was not that an 8 year old SHOULD go to jail for this but that 8 year olds have been sent to juvenile detention for such behavior.

[sebandg'smama]

I have always told my ds if he's trying to save face in front of a friend, blame me. He always has an out if kids are wanting to do something he knows is not quite right, his mother won't let him.

[Jessnet]

Originally Posted by sebandg'smama

I have always told my ds if he's trying to save face in front of a friend, blame me. He always has an out if kids are wanting to do something he knows is not quite right, his mother won't let him.

I remember this working well for me as a child and a teen. I got out of a bad situation as a teenager by complaining about my "awful, unfair, stupid" mother's habit of "random drop-ins" after school. She didn't really do this, but it got the would-be troublemakers to leave and I stayed "cool"......I think

[Yulia_R]

I did steal as a child...

Well, I don't have an answer to your question, but I just wanted to share my story. I did steal few things when I was a child. I also did lie (I was making up stories all the time). I don't know why I did this (my family had no financial difficulties), but somehow I just did. Not often, but few times. A couple of times my mom did learn about me stealing but thanks god she didn't do anything dramatic. It would have been SO humiliating to face a store manager and apologize for stealing. I think it would have been a deep deep life-long trauma that would just make me angry and push me to steal and lie more.

Anyway, the bottom line is that now when I'm an adult I'm probably one of the most honest people you'd ever meet. As I say, lying is "against my religion" (well, I don't have a religion and am apposed to the whole concept of a religion in general, but my point is that lying is just SO against my nature). Same goes for stealing.

Kids do stuff, they experiment, they lie, they steal, they hurt themselves (which does not mean they will enjoy pain when they are grown ups) and so on. There is nothing good about it, of course and talking to them honestly and openly would be a good step. But humiliating them, shaming, putting a label on them for it, I think it's just a way to get them to hate you and feel like you are one more enemy they need to fight against, one more person they need to have tricks and lies ready for. Which of course won't stop them from doing all this stuff, but would make them better at their tricks and lies (well, just my 2 cents).

[sanguine_speed]

Thanks for sharing your story. I agree that humiliation and a forced apology or terrorizing my child by taking her to the police and showing her holding cells and having a police officer tell her what 'they do with criminals' are not helpful. They're certainly not GD either.
My child is a sensitive, positive, creative and resourceful girl who made a serious error in judgment. The message I got from that was that I need to be attentive to her ability to manage her time away from direct supervision, and also give her skills to make better choices. Humiliating her, forcing an apology or terrorizing her by taking her to the police and their holding cells would be cruel and inappropriate, and I think that for her as well it would result in more harm. These would leave her with lower self-esteem, questioning her self-worth, embarrassment and shame, fear and the message that if you apologize (sincerely or not) it's okay. None of these is okay with me and I can't believe they were suggested in a GD forum :.

[heartmama]

You are incorrect that she would go to jail! My goodness! In Canada, the legal age of criminal responsibility is TWELVE. She is EIGHT. I'm not marching her down to the police. I think that is horrible. You moderate Gentle Discipline and think 8-year-olds go to jail for trying to steal candy?

In the U.S. children as young as 5 have made headlines for being tasered, handcuffed and arrested for behavior far less objectively illegal than stealing. I do not think children *should* be treated this way. However, they *are* treated this way here. I am glad to hear that Canada is different, and I did not realize you lived there.

I definitely think visiting a police station and speaking to a police officer would be reasonable with an 8 or 9 year old in U.S. culture and would absolutely do it if my son were caught stealing. If I did not do it the first time he stole, I would certainly do it the second time, and you said this is the second time your daughter stole from this store during the last few months. She may just have poor impulse control, or she may not understand how serious it is to steal. As her parent you know her best--I can only go by the information given here.

I am not sure what you picture happening during a voluntary visit to the police station under parental supervision--however, I should make clear that what I suggested, were this my own son, would be calm and informative, meant to educate him on the seriousness of theft, and not an attempt to terrify him. I can imagine it would be intimidating, which is why I would be standing right there next to him to make sure the information was being given in a way he could process. I think this is a far safer, and more supportive way to learn the consequences of theft, than what could possibly have happened if the clerk called the police and my child were detained in the store or taken to the station in a squad car--which is a real possibility where I live if an 8 year old is caught stealing.

It is certainly within the realm of GD for parents to take a serious attitude regarding dangerous or illegal behavior. Each parent has to decide what is the right approach for their family. Nothing I have described here is meant to shame or terrifying a child. However, the consequences of theft imposed by society here would most certainly be shaming and terrifying. A child may feel sobered and even intimidated upon realizing what those consequences could be. Each parent has to decide when and how to present that information to their children.

Depending upon your moral/religious/ethical beliefs--the issue of apologizing and making restitution gestures to the store owner may or may not make sense to you. For our family, apologizing and offering to make amends is not an attempt to shame or humiliate. When I was 4 I took something from a store without asking and was required to go back and apologize and return the item. That was at age 4 and it was an invaluable experience for me which I remember clearly many years later. It was not traumatic or devestating in any way. It depends on how parents present the issue.

If you think another approach works better for your child--that is fine. Different parents have different ways of incorporating GD into the increasingly complex issues we face as our children go out into the world.

[purplepaperclip]

OP, do you not think that amends should be made with the store owner? If he/she told your daughter never to come back won't that impact your family's routine of stopping by there? Or will you just not patronize that store anymore?

[Catubodua]

I don't see how having her apologize to the store owner is being punative so much as it's showing her that actions have consequences and that sometimes the consequences are unpleasant. that's a valuable lesson imo.

[Zenful]

You say you're about to move--it sounds like this could be affecting your daughter's behavior right now. I moved a few times when I was a kid and it always stressed me out and made me feel out of control. Add on top of that being told that she can't go to the store...one of her favorite places, it sounds like. She's looking for ways to express her autonomy...having to move counteracts that as well as not being able to go to the store on her own. How about helping her learn how to count money and be more proactive with shopping? Not necessarily at that store, of course, but at the new store you'll be shopping at after you move. She's old enough to take responsibility for buying things like candy and what not and being able to count money on her own. I agree that the circumstances surrounding the store across the street sounds too dangerous...hopefully there will be a store nearby your new home that's safer.

I also suggest talking to her about how she's feeling about moving and anything else that's stressing her out right now. Sometimes just talking about things really helps kids feel more in control.

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by suebee79

OP, do you not think that amends should be made with the store owner? If he/she told your daughter never to come back won't that impact your family's routine of stopping by there? Or will you just not patronize that store anymore?

I do not think that a forced apology is meaningful. I also think forcing an apology sends the message that an apology makes things better, and that somehow as long as you say you're sorry, even when you're not, your actions were okay. Or that if you lie and say you're sorry because you were coerced to that you can get away with things. We're moving in less than four weeks. We only patronize the store once a week usually, and we aren't going to be doing so as a consequence of what happened. There are no stores near our new house.

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by Zenful

You say you're about to move--it sounds like this could be affecting your daughter's behavior right now. I moved a few times when I was a kid and it always stressed me out and made me feel out of control. Add on top of that being told that she can't go to the store...one of her favorite places, it sounds like. She's looking for ways to express her autonomy...having to move counteracts that as well as not being able to go to the store on her own. How about helping her learn how to count money and be more proactive with shopping? Not necessarily at that store, of course, but at the new store you'll be shopping at after you move. She's old enough to take responsibility for buying things like candy and what not and being able to count money on her own. I agree that the circumstances surrounding the store across the street sounds too dangerous...hopefully there will be a store nearby your new home that's safer.

I also suggest talking to her about how she's feeling about moving and anything else that's stressing her out right now. Sometimes just talking about things really helps kids feel more in control.

I think you're on to something(s). I think this behaviour is explainable, and while still unacceptable, I don't think she's on the fast track to a life of crime and violence here. I think sometimes a mom can intuitively know when a response should be less than what might seem to others from the outside.

[mammastar2]

I don't think I'd necessarily be doing the return to the store, followed by the police station. She's already had the natural consequence of being caught by the store worker, forced to return the stolen candy, and told never to return to a store in her neighbourhood where she used to spend her allowance. I'm not sure that a further trip would accomplish anything more in the way of a natural consequence. You can talk with her about what happened, how it felt, what ended up happening and so on. It may even be that she decides herself that she wants to go back and apologize and ask if she can go to the store again, in which case you could go with her for support. However, I wouldn't force it.

I agree with the poster who suggested restricting playdates with that friend to being at your place for the time being. We've had the occasional discussion with our kids along the lines of "we thought that this level of independence was working for you, but it's not, at least in this specific way," which has led us to come up together with a new, more restricted level of independence in the 'problem area' until they have shown they can handle more. Right now, playing with this friend seems to be her problem area, and she may also appreciate having the extra back-up if she feels pressured into doing things that aren't a good idea.

I like the idea of blaming you if she needs a reason to say no to a friend, but that's just one strategy, and she may hear back something like "oh, you're such a baby! why do you always care what your mom thinks? she's never going to know anyway!" I suggest some role-playing and strategizing about what to do when she's under peer pressure.

She sounds like a great kid who made a not-great decision, but better with a candy bar when she's 8 than a car when she's 18, hey?

[purplepaperclip]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

I do not think that a forced apology is meaningful. I also think forcing an apology sends the message that an apology makes things better, and that somehow as long as you say you're sorry, even when you're not, your actions were okay. Or that if you lie and say you're sorry because you were coerced to that you can get away with things. We're moving in less than four weeks. We only patronize the store once a week usually, and we aren't going to be doing so as a consequence of what happened. There are no stores near our new house.

Oh I was not advocating a forced apology. I agree with you that they are worthless. But, it is possible that she may feel better if offered the OPTION of speaking with the store keeper or writing a letter. I know *for me* as a child, it would have eaten away at me, thinking the store keeper thought I was a bad person for stealing. But I wouldn't have brought up going back because he had banned me from the store. Have you asked her if she would like to "clear the air" so to speak?

[mamazee]

Well, my dd is only 7 and has similar freedom. And I would never march her down to a police station either. So we're on the same page as far as those things go.

I would talk to her about the store and what happens to stores when things are stolen and not paid for, and suggest she write a letter of apology. I don't force apologies, though. But I would point out that the store owner said she isn't allowed back and a letter of apology would be a first step toward that ending.

Then, while I give my dd a great deal of freedom, I would reign in a bit if she'd shown that she couldn't handle it. If I thought the friend were part of the problem, I'd particularly reign in the freedom when she was playing with that friend. Like, for a while, require that they play where you can keep tabs on them better or something. You'd have to feel out the particulars.

That particular store sounds unsafe, but maybe she could be given the freedom to go in to some stores on occasion and buy things by herself? My dd does that too. It makes her feel very grown up and responsible, and feeling responsible is a good step toward behaving responsibly. But I wouldn't let her go across a busy street, through a busy parking lot, and past a group of rowdy teens to do it either, so I understand how you feel there.

Anyway, I wouldn't flip out over it either. It doesn't mean she's going to become a hardened criminal or anything.

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by suebee79

Oh I was not advocating a forced apology. I agree with you that they are worthless. But, it is possible that she may feel better if offered the OPTION of speaking with the store keeper or writing a letter. I know *for me* as a child, it would have eaten away at me, thinking the store keeper thought I was a bad person for stealing. But I wouldn't have brought up going back because he had banned me from the store. Have you asked her if she would like to "clear the air" so to speak?

That's a good idea. I will talk this over with her. I'm not sure who was working at that time though, so I may have to do some digging. But it would be worthwhile if she does have those feelings.

[mommy2maya]

wouldn't it worry you more if she were not remorseful and apologetic for stealing? I mean, I TOTALLY get not making toddler apologize for grabbing the toy a friend/sibling was playing with. That is totally worthless as far as a meaningful apology, though it is meaningful in teaching sympathy and understanding, imo. An 8yo should totally understand that stealing is WRONG, on all levels, and while it might be embarrassing to have to admit it, the apology should not feel forced- she should want to apologize.

[Roar]

Has anyone seen statistics on what percentage of kids try out stealing? It is a really, really common behavior for the age. That isn't to say it is fine or ignore it. It is to say I hardly think you need to be fearing this is the first step on the path of a life of crime.

She didn't harm the police, she harmed the store and she owes them some form of apology, could be in person or could be in the form of a note. I would assume given her thumbsucking she was aware what she did was wrong and she was upset about it. One reason why I would advocate the apology is in order to let her learn from this and move on rather than feeling guilty and scared of the store for years. And yes, I agree it is a sign that it is time to scale back on the freedom a bit. I think the suggestion to only allow the friend to play at your house is a good one.