Near Death Experiences Versus Religion Teachings

[ThomasL]

I have studied Near Death Experiences for many years and it seems what what people experience in the Light is not what they were taught in religion. A major example is the judgement. I was always taught there would be a judgement on whether someone goes to heaven or hell but what people experienced was not so. They were taken on a review of their life in which all their deeds both good and bad were shown but there was no rebuke or judgement coming from the light. The only judgement was coming from the experiencer but the light or God? loved them unconditionally. Another major difference was religious beliefs did not even matter. One person asked the light a question on what was the best religion the light responded by saying "I don't care". Basically the light was saying that religion did not matter as each individual will choose what path will work for them but in spiritual reality it does not matter to God which religious path if any a person will choose. This is definately not what I was taught as I was taught that unbelievers of Jesus Christ would go to hell automatically.

My question is do you believe these experiences to be spiritual reality or false? I myself believe these experiences to be true as they make more sense logically.

[Smokering]

How do they make more sense logically? More logically than what?

[princesstutu]

I guess he means it's more logical to believe that a truly loving diety wouldn't care what path you take to it and wouldn't condemn you to hell just for acting like a human. I could be wrong...he'll have to explain it.

I definitely believe in near death experiences (or actually...death experiences, if you've gone to the light) and the awareness that many people get during them. Those experiences line up with what many spiritual paths actually teach.

[Smokering]

n/m, waiting for ThomasL to respond

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Smokering

How do they make more sense logically? More logically than what?

More logically than what the churches teach. The other poster said pretty much what I meant.

[Smokering]

Well, I can only speak for Christianity, but what's illogical about the Christian view of the afterlife? If the Christian God were only presented as loving, hell might be an issue; but as He is also presented as holy, wrathful and just, it isn't.

As for the deity/light not caring what path you take to it, I find that illogical. Various religious paths head in entirely different directions - becoming one with God, everyone being God, being separate from God, becoming fully human, becoming trans-human, the list goes on. On what basis do you believe that all these paths are leading in the same direction? That's an assertion, and a strange one in my book; not an obvious logical conclusion. I find it far more rational to believe that one truth exists objectively and that human endeavors to understand it either hit or miss, than to believe that a hundred people believing wildly contradictory things can all be right. But I'm not quite sure what you mean by paths that "work for them", either: if religion doesn't matter, then how do you define which paths "work"?

I'd also point out that not all near-death experiences as are generic as the ones you report - I've read of several which included very specific - sometimes iconographic - visions of Jesus and references to heaven. (I haven't personally come across any which referenced deities of other religions, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some around.) I've also read there are physiological phenomena which can explain NDEs in a naturalistic manner.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Smokering

Well, I can only speak for Christianity, but what's illogical about the Christian view of the afterlife? If the Christian God were only presented as loving, hell might be an issue; but as He is also presented as holy, wrathful and just, it isn't.

As for the deity/light not caring what path you take to it, I find that illogical. Various religious paths head in entirely different directions - becoming one with God, everyone being God, being separate from God, becoming fully human, becoming trans-human, the list goes on. On what basis do you believe that all these paths are leading in the same direction? That's an assertion, and a strange one in my book; not an obvious logical conclusion. I find it far more rational to believe that one truth exists objectively and that human endeavors to understand it either hit or miss, than to believe that a hundred people believing wildly contradictory things can all be right. But I'm not quite sure what you mean by paths that "work for them", either: if religion doesn't matter, then how do you define which paths "work"?

I'd also point out that not all near-death experiences as are generic as the ones you report - I've read of several which included very specific - sometimes iconographic - visions of Jesus and references to heaven. (I haven't personally come across any which referenced deities of other religions, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some around.) I've also read there are physiological phenomena which can explain NDEs in a naturalistic manner.

I personally do not believe in the wrathful aspect of God. It is my belief the universe is set in a way of natural law which is different than punshment but that is another topic . The reason for so many paths is each soul chooses it pass path. Would Christianity work for a Hindu? Most likely not. I occasionally read of NDEs in which people report visions of Christ but I also believe that the light will sometimes use a form that fits the beliefs of the person. Sometimes people of far east culture will see Budha. As for the Christian Heaven in NDEs I believe there are many mansions and sometimes people will see what is based on their beliefs or rather where they will be most comfortable. I have heard some scientists try to debunk NDEs saying that they are physiollogical having something to do with the brain but there have been many verified reports of people being out of the body who were able to describe with 100% accuracy what was going on in areas nowhere near their bodies. They described everything from conversations to what people were wearing and even thinking. There is a lot more to reality than what any book will ever tell you.

I was raised a Christian and as an adult tried to embrace it but after reading the bible and listening to fire and brimstone preachers on Christian radio I just felt it was not right for me nor did it make sense that only Christians go to heaven.

[Liquesce]

And then, of course, there are the near death experience stories which go something like "an atheist took a tour of the popular image of a Christian hell." I really don't think personal beliefs necessarily override culture when it comes to where the mind goes in times of crisis. The only near death experiences I've never heard of, personally, are people having an experience which fits with religions or cultures which are wholly alien to the person having the experience. By and large people who see anything seem to see what they know, regardless of whether they believed it going in.

[Smokering]

The reason for so many paths is each soul chooses it pass path. Would Christianity work for a Hindu? Most likely not.

What do you mean? "Work" how? Hindus do convert to Christianity, and vice versa.

I'm still not getting what you mean by it not "making sense" that only Christians go to heaven. I can see why you might not like it, but you're implying it's illogical. How?

[mamabadger]

I would be very suspicious of such experiences. First, because things people see or experience while dying, under anesthetic, or during times of extreme physical stress can be unreliable. Second, because so many of them sound like a simplified, prettied-up version of our own wishful thinking about death and the afterlife.

There is an interesting book you might like, which compares "after death" and "out of body" experiences with early Patristic and Orthodox belief, called The Soul After Death: Contemporary After-Death Experiences in the Light of the Orthodox Teaching on the Afterlife by Fr. Seraphim Rose. It is specifically Orthodox Christian in its outlook, but is useful for comparing and contrasting Christian theology with other beliefs relating to this phenomenon.

[umsami]

I actually find NDEs very interesting and have read some on them. I've also been interested in hospice and have read a few accounts from hospice nurses on death itself.

I don't necessarily believe that there is a "right" religion. I think the religion that brings you closest to God... that allows you to grow spiritually... and motivates you to live with love for your fellow human beings/creatures... is the right religion for you. Often times, this matches what we were raised with... or are familiar with... but sometimes it does not.

From an Islamic standpoint, I would explain the lack of judgment by God's love and mercy. It is infinite.

[Liquesce]

Technically, an Islamic point of view would explain the judgment not being immediate by the intermediary period, the barzakh, and by judgment itself being reserved for the set day of judgment. Though I'm guessing a belief in the possibility of entering the intermediary period prior to one's actual time of death is not particularly orthodox?

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Smokering

What do you mean? "Work" how? Hindus do convert to Christianity, and vice versa.

I'm still not getting what you mean by it not "making sense" that only Christians go to heaven. I can see why you might not like it, but you're implying it's illogical. How?

Illogical in the same way it is illogical to deny someone basic rights because of their race. In America for example it is considered by many the one nation under God. We have freedom to believe as we choose and no can be denied access to jobs or whatever else. I would think the creator is all for religious freedom based on the examples above and no is denied heaven just because they don't believe in Jesus.

While it's true there are isolated cases of religious conversions most hindus are not going to convert to Christianity and most Christians are not going to convert to Hinduism.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I would be very suspicious of such experiences. First, because things people see or experience while dying, under anesthetic, or during times of extreme physical stress can be unreliable. Second, because so many of them sound like a simplified, prettied-up version of our own wishful thinking about death and the afterlife.

There is an interesting book you might like, which compares "after death" and "out of body" experiences with early Patristic and Orthodox belief, called The Soul After Death: Contemporary After-Death Experiences in the Light of the Orthodox Teaching on the Afterlife by Fr. Seraphim Rose. It is specifically Orthodox Christian in its outlook, but is useful for comparing and contrasting Christian theology with other beliefs relating to this phenomenon.

Based upon solid research what most people experience was not wishful thinking but total reality. It's a whole different level of awareness in which knowledge is unlimited. It is not just the visuals or the feeling. I actually attend local NDE support groups and I know just by listening to their experiences that something amazing happened. As I stated in my other post during the initial OBE the patients were able to describe with amazing accuracy and detail what was going on. About the brain theory Pam Reynolds experience happened while on the operating table with no brain waves. You can find ou her story through google search. Another notable case was a gentleman who went into some sort of cardiac arrest and was completely unconscious yet during that time he was out of the body following an ICU nurse who was making her rounds. He noticed her aura colors changed when she checked on patients who were not going to make it. Aparently one of the patients died. Finally she went into the out of body patient's room and as soon as she got close to his body he felt this sort of amazing unconditional love for her. Something like a celebration of consciousness. When he came to she was looking down at him and telling him he was going to be okay. When he in turn asked her how she was doing she was confused by the question and when he told her he knows she lost a patient she turned totally white and ran out of the room. While these cases are not solid proof but it has to make wonder if there is not much more to our existance then what we consciously know and maybe we are much greater than we can ever know because maybe when we are born into this world all memory of our divine existance is lost which makes sense because how could we really experience being human if we knew too much.

[Smokering]

Illogical in the same way it is illogical to deny someone basic rights because of their race.

How is that illogical? Immoral, yes (at least, based on my moral presuppositions I believe it is). But illogical? Not inherently. The concept that people have basic rights is generally held as a presupposition based on unprovable principles.

In America for example it is considered by many the one nation under God. We have freedom to believe as we choose and no can be denied access to jobs or whatever else. I would think the creator is all for religious freedom based on the examples above and no is denied heaven just because they don't believe in Jesus.

...I don't quite get what you're saying here, if it's not "God bases His system of justice on the legal principles of the USA". Freedom of religion as a national policy makes no comment on which religion, if any, is correct. Just because the government finds it expedient or moral to allow religious freedom doesn't mean God does - especially given that He knows His own attributes and therefore knows which religions describe Him correctly. (Assuming a self-aware deity, but the Light you describe certainly reads that way.)

While it's true there are isolated cases of religious conversions most hindus are not going to convert to Christianity and most Christians are not going to convert to Hinduism.

Most, no; but "isolated cases" is hardly an accurate description. Converts happen, often in droves. Catholics become Protestants and vice versa, Christians become Moslems and vice versa, Buddhists become Hindu and vice versa. But in any case, that doesn't explain what you meant about a religion "working" for someone.

[Bluegoat]

I find near death experiences totally lack credibility. I don't think the people are usually lying, but I DON"T THINK THEY WERE DEAD.

The brain does all kinds of odd things under such circumstances, and the kinds of things people report in NDEs are just the sort of feelings you would expect them to have with those chemicals swishing around their brains. And much of the time their descriptions of the afterlife seem to be gleaned from bad tv, which also seems pretty unconvincing.

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I find near death experiences totally lack credibility. I don't think the people are usually lying, but I DON"T THINK THEY WERE DEAD.

The brain does all kinds of odd things under such circumstances, and the kinds of things people report in NDEs are just the sort of feelings you would expect them to have with those chemicals swishing around their brains. And much of the time their descriptions of the afterlife seem to be gleaned from bad tv, which also seems pretty unconvincing.

Yup. I also think if some people have had legitimate experiences, there is no way to separate them from illegitimate ones and the stories get crazy.

Humoring the idea, there is no reason the lack of judgment conflicts with Christianity. These people aren't dead, or staying that way. Catholicism teaches we get one Judgement at the time of death, and then the Final Judgement. Why would you get one if you're only sorta dead?

Now I've had many experiences in my life of information being given to me in dreams or feelings. I've had many dreams where I followed someone around an actual event and received knowledge impossible for me to have. This is not incompatible with Catholic faith AT ALL, and there are records of many saints having this type of experience. Many cloistered religious have been given the knowledge of another's passing so they can begin to pray for their soul. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that this is impossible or even "wrong" in any way, it's just that most of these experiences are intended only for the person who received them and it should be left that way.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by xekomaya

Yup. I also think if some people have had legitimate experiences, there is no way to separate them from illegitimate ones and the stories get crazy.

Humoring the idea, there is no reason the lack of judgment conflicts with Christianity. These people aren't dead, or staying that way. Catholicism teaches we get one Judgement at the time of death, and then the Final Judgement. Why would you get one if you're only sorta dead?

Now I've had many experiences in my life of information being given to me in dreams or feelings. I've had many dreams where I followed someone around an actual event and received knowledge impossible for me to have. This is not incompatible with Catholic faith AT ALL, and there are records of many saints having this type of experience. Many cloistered religious have been given the knowledge of another's passing so they can begin to pray for their soul. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that this is impossible or even "wrong" in any way, it's just that most of these experiences are intended only for the person who received them and it should be left that way.

But there is always the possibility that what the church teachs is not so. They go by scriptures that were written by man rather than by spiritual experiences like those of the gnostics. From what I learned there is no such thing as a judgement. Atleast not as it has been believed. During the life review the only one who was judging was the experiencer because he felt the emotional pain that he caused others to feel when he did something unloving. All the Light did was provide loving guidance and suggestions before the experiencer was sent back to the body. If an experiencer lived a criminal life they came back changed. Not because they were they were told to which they weren't but because of what they experienced they decided to go into a proffession of giving. You always also have to consider the tranformation that results and not just the bliss.

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I find near death experiences totally lack credibility. I don't think the people are usually lying, but I DON"T THINK THEY WERE DEAD.

The brain does all kinds of odd things under such circumstances, and the kinds of things people report in NDEs are just the sort of feelings you would expect them to have with those chemicals swishing around their brains. And much of the time their descriptions of the afterlife seem to be gleaned from bad tv, which also seems pretty unconvincing.

They were not dead in the sense where they completely crossed over but for all intents and purposes the body did shut down and like I mentioned in my previous post were able to describe in total detail what was actually going on around them and they even sometimes visited families 1000s of miles away and got there the second they thought about it and correctly described exactly what they were doing and even what they were wearing. In all the years of reserch and study I have come to the conclusion that the brain had nothing to with it at all and that likely there is the divine self than cannot be detected via science but it does not mean it is not there.

[xekomaya]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

But there is always the possibility that what the church teachs is not so. They go by scriptures that were written by man rather than by spiritual experiences like those of the gnostics. From what I learned there is no such thing as a judgement. Atleast not as it has been believed. During the life review the only one who was judging was the experiencer because he felt the emotional pain that he caused others to feel when he did something unloving. All the Light did was provide loving guidance and suggestions before the experiencer was sent back to the body. If an experiencer lived a criminal life they came back changed. Not because they were they were told to which they weren't but because of what they experienced they decided to go into a proffession of giving. You always also have to consider the tranformation that results and not just the bliss.

Well, first. I believe with 100% certainty that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. I have a lot more to go on than a handful of "experiences" with no authority.

Then, I was answering your original question which asked if I believed. Which I don't. And if I did, it still would not be irreconcilable with Catholicism. Even what you are saying, about people being guided a little but realizing the right and wrong of their own lives -- of course that seems very reasonable in my context of belief because Catholics believe there IS a hard and fast right and wrong. The belief in absolute (vs. relative) morality is actually unlike many of the religious paths people are choosing. I can only see it as God's Mercy if someone was given a profound experience and able to amend their life from it.