Keeping your Lips Zipped around Mainstream Mamas – SO HARD! - Page 3

[sweetpea_119]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

To all those saying, "It's none of your business/ What do you care?"

Well... you are correct that what this particular woman does is none of my business whatsoever.

But I still care. I care because women in America are being victimized. (As I've already said repeatedly, I dont' know if this woman falls into the camp of "blindly trusting her OB & therefore too likely to get damaging anti-evidence-based care.") But there ARE lots of women who DO fall into that camp.

That bothers me, so I care. & if I CAN do something to prevent victimization of women & damage to women & babies, I would like to. I don't think I'm wrong for that.

(Yes, again, I can't assume this woman falls into that camp and I shouldn't (and I won't) harass her personally. But it's a feeling I have that I want to warn everyone to be sure they're an educated consumer. I don't think it's wrong of me to have that feeling. I don't think it's wrong of me to want to help people from being victimized. (It's only wrong to act on it & harass people!! & I do realize that!)

I will be one who says it! I wish someone who really cared & KNEW facts would have intercepted me during my first pregnancy to tell me about midwives & homebirth. It probably would have been enough to prompt me to ask around & find my midwife (who I didn't find until baby #3!) who is very skilled in breech birth...I have kicked myself so many times over my failure to go beyond my OB that first time. I read every statistic I could & read every possible natural childbirthing thing I could find to help, but everything always was linked to hospitals, so I never questioned *that* piece of the pie, yk?

I have been cut open twice when I could have avoided both cuts & never had to learn the hard way how traumatic a c/s could be & how nightmarish it is even now looking back (I've had several friends end with unwanted c/s for failed inductions, etc. & I absolutely break down for the rest of the day remembering my c/s...I am scarred in so many ways that I don't want anyone else to feel!). I know that that something could've gone wrong even with a HB midwife & I still could have had a c/s with either of my first two, but it wouldn't have been a guarantee like it was with the hospital...

I try to educate other women as much as I can and as subtly as I can...especially if I'm not close to them. One of my DH's friends had a wife who was due right around when I was with my third & I really feel like I may have saved her from a c/s because I shared a lot of information with my DH's friend about unnecessary inductions as well as the complete list of preE symptoms so that they would be educated instead of complacent. My DH's friend managed to back the doctor into a corner, so to speak, & found out that even the doctor acknowledged that there was no medical need for the induction they kept scheduling for her...She went on to deliver on her own with no interventions

Those of us who know the truth need to share. Nicely. Not being pushy. But we need to share because otherwise no one knows the truth & others *will* be victimized more than they already are. Those who know & choose a different path than me? Well, as long as they know the options & understand, then that's up to them!

Stepping off the soap box (for now!!)...

[elanorh]

Well ...

Maybe I'm being pushy, but when a friend or family member is pregnant, I send an email their direction. I include a list of books I read and found useful while pregnant, including suggestions to read "The Thinking Woman's Guide," and books about breastfeeding, and some books about the first few years. I usually say something like "Well, now that you're becoming a parent, you'll be getting all sorts of unsolicited advice. It bugged me to no end. But allow me to pile on with this advice! Feel free to use or ignore it, as you see fit. You'll find that what works for one family may not work for your family, and vice versa - part of parenting is figuring out what works for your own family, etc."

I'm known as a bit of a 'wonk,' and I say upfront in the email that I just hope the information is helpful for them ... that I read a lot of stuff that wasn't useful or helpful or accurate, and these were the ones which I liked the most in the end, if they're interested. And call if you have questions about any of it. I always say too that we have had natural births, and if they have any questions about it, I would be happy to discuss with them, if they're wondering about it.

....I've had several friends thank me for the email, some more than once. So, I don't know - maybe a few thought I was pushy, but on the balance more than that thought it was helpful. I think that tone/approach can really make a difference in how the information comes across to those we're communicating with.

And I do agree ... when I was pregnant with Ina, I just assumed that we'd deliver naturally with no issues. I didn't know to research my OB (no MWs here), I didn't know to do any more than the 'mandatory' hospital birth class. Reading stories here and elsewhere, I realize that I was really, really lucky. My OB actually is low-intervention and supportive of natural birth. I could so easily have ended up just trusting my OB and getting cascaded into a c/s, and only realizing what happened later.

If someone had suggested that I read Goer's book, etc., I know that I would have been far more informed and capable, if something had come up. (When I recommend the book, I note that she's pro-home birth, but that obviously I've done two hospital births, I think the information is helpful for all women regardless of how they choose to give birth).

Sometimes it's simply finding a way to help people find information to make informed decisions.

....That all said - yes, sometimes I struggle when talking birth stuff with mothers who've made other decisions (or worse, had them foisted upon them). One thing I that I do whenever I hear about episiotomies, is say "Wow! Your OB/hospital still does those? They're banned at our hospital." (which is only slightly stretching the truth - they're only supposed to happen if the baby is in danger) .... I think sometimes just hearing that there are other ways or approaches can make people rethink procedures they take for granted. I'd think that a similar comment about "no food while in labor" or etc. would also have a similar effect.

I find a lot of my conversations end up being defense of "no, really, I'm not that tough/brave" (because of unmedicated births), if people talk much about it. It frustrates me when people act like I'm some mountain woman or something, for natural birth. Especially when it's around other women who haven't had a baby yet, because it immediately makes anything I say in support of natural birth or etc., sound like it's unreachable. Once someone says, "Oh, elanorh is just a superwoman, you want the epi!!" it's very difficult to counter in a way which doesn't discount THAT woman's experience, etc. I usually just say, "Well, you don't know what you can handle 'til you try it, each woman is different." But even that is probably awkward.

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by elanorh

it immediately makes anything I say in support of natural birth or etc., sound like it's unreachable.

I run into the same problem. My co-workers know I had a natural birth & I was dead-set on having one. although for me, I AM a tough cookie! So I won't deny that I know for a fact I'm stronger than the average chick.

BUT... what upsets me so much is Women seem to think if they DO want the epi, there's NO POINT GETTING EDUCATED! If they aren't interested in trying natural birth, why bother listening to ANYTHING Meg has to say??? & Meg in particular aside, why bother questioning the OB?

I actually read exactly that on a discussion board once:
"I didn't have a "Birth Plan" because my 'birth plan' was 2 sentences - 1. I want an epi. 2. Do whatever you have to to get the baby out."
So, yeah, I'd say that's a chick who is in that camp of not being an educated consumer & at great risk for anti-evidence-based abuse.

Which makes me really sad because it certainly IS possible to chose an epi but STILL try to get evidence-based care (i.e. don't let them induce you for no reason! Avoid episiotomy, don't let them AROM & pit-to-distress, etc.)

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein

I think this [mentioning optimal fetal positioning] is you going too far!

Ya know, I don't totally disagree with you. I really struggled with whether or not to say it. I really did.

BUT - the discussion was already of a personal nature. Another co-worker was starting the betting 'pool' on when she'd deliver & what the weight would be (gender is already known.) So PG Mama mentions how they estimated the weight. Others ask what it was & she says, "I'm not telling you that! Then you'll have an unfair advantage!" (Making me think she would have told us otherwise!)
New-VBAC mama says, "Yeah, they're supposed to gain X amount [can't remember] per day now, right?" PG Mama looks dismayed & confirms that. (making me think the they're saying baby is big already...)

As I struggled with whether or not to mention OFP, I was pretty confident that:
1. She didn't know how important it is for baby to be Occiupt Anterior
2. She didn't know that you can do things to help ensure baby is OA (yeah, you cant guaratee it, but you can help increase the odds.)

Sure enough, she definitely didn't know about #2 and it seemed like she didn't know about #1 either. So my presumption was correct.

So my struggle, given my correct presumption, was... Allow her to continue to be uninformed -the downside of which is her risk of CS could be relatively higher [& remember choosing a hospital with a 44% CS rate, her risk of CS is already quite high!] or SPEAK UP - and risk that I annoy her. I felt like speaking up was the lesser of 2 evils - especially since I'm already known as crazy-NCB-girl. I felt like I'd rather her be annoyed by me than be YET ANOTHER lady who ends up with CS for FTP (Due to OP baby).

Yes, I realize she's a grown woman responsible for her own choices - I'm not responsible for looking out for her or anything. But I felt like it was staring me in the face... a person at risk again & I could lend a hand to maybe steer them clear of unknown danger (Again, since she didn't know OFP is possible & didn't know the danger of an OP baby.)

Yeah, I'm lacking self-control on this issue. Guilty as charged! Not being in the company of mainstream mamas discussing birth is probably the best thing for me. : Which brings us back to the title of my thread.. it's "SO HARD" for me!

[felix23]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

I run into the same problem. My co-workers know I had a natural birth & I was dead-set on having one. although for me, I AM a tough cookie! So I won't deny that I know for a fact I'm stronger than the average chick.

BUT... what upsets me so much is Women seem to think if they DO want the epi, there's NO POINT GETTING EDUCATED! If they aren't interested in trying natural birth, why bother listening to ANYTHING Meg has to say??? & Meg in particular aside, why bother questioning the OB?

I actually read exactly that on a discussion board once:
"I didn't have a "Birth Plan" because my 'birth plan' was 2 sentences - 1. I want an epi. 2. Do whatever you have to to get the baby out."
So, yeah, I'd say that's a chick who is in that camp of not being an educated consumer & at great risk for anti-evidence-based abuse.

Which makes me really sad because it certainly IS possible to chose an epi but STILL try to get evidence-based care (i.e. don't let them induce you for no reason! Avoid episiotomy, don't let them AROM & pit-to-distress, etc.)

Just because someone has an epi doesn't mean that they are weaker then those who have natural births.

And if they woman you mentioned got the birth she wanted, even if it wasn't evidenced based, how was she abused? My OB recommended and I allowed many interventions during my last pregnancy that weren't evidence based. I don't feel abused. My goal was to walk out of the hospital taking the baby with me, and I didn't care about anything else. I got what I wanted, so I'm pretty happy about my birth experience, even thought it was a c-section at 37 weeks.

[Youngfrankenstein]

Megboz, I really don't want you to think I don't totally sympathize and agree with the scariness of "normal" maternity care in this country!:

It's just translating that to IRL people who don't know what they don't know.

I am having my 4th baby and felt educated from the first baby. I took a home-birth based childbirth class even though I was using a CNM in the hosp. I thought I was doing and learning.

Researching homebirth and planning one has taught me sooooo much about modern maternity care, it's scary.

Watching The Business of Being Born, reading, Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, and Pushed confirmed many things I thought I knew, but fleshed out so many things that seem obvious.

I don't know which previous poster said it, but I think that e-mail idea when finding out someone is pg is a fantastic idea. It leaves the ball in their court without being pushy.

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by felix23

Just because someone has an epi doesn't mean that they are weaker then those who have natural births.

Did I say that? I don't think I said anything of the sort! Please quote exactly where I said something like that so I can be sure to clarify in the future.

Elanorh said that people assume she is so tough & brave for having a NCB & she has to convince them otherwise. She has to convince them that it IS attainable! It's not something only "super-women" can do.

I said the same thing.

People assume I am a "Super Woman" & that is the only reason I can do it. They assume NORMAL women can't possibly do it! (As a matter of fact, one co-worker said EXACTLY that to me, she used the term "Super Woman." She said, "I don't know how you Super Women can do it. I needed to go for the drugs." (Sounds like she had kept an open mind though.)

Now, personally, I AM tougher than the average lady! So I CAN'T say, "Oh, I'm not so tough! You could do it." Because I personally AM tougher! But, again, I'm not saying women who choose epis are weak. Just saying you don't have to be extra-tough-super-woman to go natural. (But, yet again, I'll state, I can't personally use myself as an example to prove that fact.) Is that clear?

Originally Posted by felix23

And if they woman you mentioned got the birth she wanted, even if it wasn't evidenced based, how was she abused?

I consider an unneccessary, unrequested C-section to be 'abuse.' Period. Do you disagree with that?

If a woman truly wants a CS, than that is her choice.

But if she doesn't want one, and she has so many unnecessary interventions that lead to one, then she has been abused. (Because, as stated above, she has had an unnecessary, unrequested CS). Period.

Originally Posted by felix23

My OB recommended and I allowed many interventions during my last pregnancy that weren't evidence based. I don't feel abused. My goal was to walk out of the hospital taking the baby with me, and I didn't care about anything else. I got what I wanted, so I'm pretty happy about my birth experience, even thought it was a c-section at 37 weeks.

That is your choice. You got the birth you want & that is great. Of course you don't feel abused because you made choices & they were respected.

But that is a different scenario from women who end up with an unnecessary CS due to interventions when:.

1. they didn't know how much each intervention increased their risk of CS and
2. they didn't know how so much of the intervention was totally unnecessary

Just the fact that you know of the concept of "Evidence-based" tells me you are informed and educated. And you chose to have non-evidencec based care. So, of course I wouldn't say YOU were abused because you made choices & your OB honored them as your HCP & as a service-provider. That is how it should be.

For a woman who is NOT so educated as you, The default should be evidence-based care (if a woman doesn't request otherwise.) Anti-evidence based care that isn't by-request is abusive.

[MegBoz]

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein

Megboz, I really don't want you to think I don't totally sympathize and agree with the scariness of "normal" maternity care in this country!:

Oh I didn't think that at all!! Yeah, I could tell you sympathized & understood where I was coming from. & I also totally understand where you are coming from as well in your statement about me going to far. (As I said, I don't totally disagree! I have trouble controlling myself!!)

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein

It's just translating that to IRL people who don't know what they don't know.

Exactly. It's tough!

[felix23]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

Did I say that? I don't think I said anything of the sort! Please quote exactly where I said something like that so I can be sure to clarify in the future.

Elanorh said that people assume she is so tough & brave for having a NCB & she has to convince them otherwise. She has to convince them that it IS attainable! It's not something only "super-women" can do.

I said the same thing.

People assume I am a "Super Woman" & that is the only reason I can do it. They assume NORMAL women can't possibly do it! (As a matter of fact, one co-worker said EXACTLY that to me, she used the term "Super Woman." She said, "I don't know how you Super Women can do it. I needed to go for the drugs." (Sounds like she had kept an open mind though.)

Now, personally, I AM tougher than the average lady! So I CAN'T say, "Oh, I'm not so tough! You could do it." Because I personally AM tougher! But, again, I'm not saying women who choose epis are weak. Just saying you don't have to be extra-tough-super-woman to go natural. (But, yet again, I'll state, I can't personally use myself as an example to prove that fact.) Is that clear?



I consider an unneccessary, unrequested C-section to be 'abuse.' Period. Do you disagree with that?

If a woman truly wants a CS, than that is her choice.

But if she doesn't want one, and she has so many unnecessary interventions that lead to one, then she has been abused. (Because, as stated above, she has had an unnecessary, unrequested CS). Period.



That is your choice. You got the birth you want & that is great. Of course you don't feel abused because you made choices & they were respected.

But that is a different scenario from women who end up with an unnecessary CS due to interventions when:.

1. they didn't know how much each intervention increased their risk of CS and
2. they didn't know how so much of the intervention was totally unnecessary

Just the fact that you know of the concept of "Evidence-based" tells me you are informed and educated. And you chose to have non-evidencec based care. So, of course I wouldn't say YOU were abused because you made choices & your OB honored them as your HCP & as a service-provider. That is how it should be.

For a woman who is NOT so educated as you, The default should be evidence-based care (if a woman doesn't request otherwise.) Anti-evidence based care that isn't by-request is abusive.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I took the "I'm stronger then the average chick", as meaning mainstream women who have epis are weak. Needing an epi has nothing to do with stregnth, some births are just more painful then others. My mom has six medication free births, but needed an epi for the seventh.

I'm going to have to respond to the rest later because dd1 just got a screwdriver and took all the handles off of her dresser.