How much is too much?

[snarfywarning]

Yesterday, we got a 2 year old dog. She has been abused in the past, and as a result very very submissive. She is very calm, friendly, and has no noticeable issues with food or noise or anything. She does, however, react when hit in the face (obviously, right? lol)

Now, my question is should we try to stop this behavior, or is it totally normal? It is going to take a few days to train my 17 month old how to NOT hit the dog in the face. But still, training is training, and he has wormed in under the radar, bashed the dog in the face, and gotten snapped at.

When not being hit in the face, she loves our kids. Licks them and lets them pet her face and back and tummy, and cuddles with them, and shows absolutely NO signs of aggression.

For the record, we have kinda of adopted the "Well, that is what you get for pulling her whiskers" stance when this happened with the cats, and just let our kids get swiped, but people are always talking about one bite being it for dogs, so I am really kind of confused.

I, as a human with rational and logical thought, would yelp out and raise my arm if I took a book to the face, so I feel like I can't get mad at a dog.

Where do you families draw the line on puppy self defense?

[mamallama]

I don't let children hit my dogs at all.

Honestly, in the case of a new dog with issues and a 17mo, I would not give the baby the opportunity to hit the dog again--period. Either the dog is safely in his crate, dog and baby are separated by baby gates, baby is in a high chair or baby carrier, or you are right there paying 100% attention and ready to direct gentle pettings. Phone rings, you pick up baby and take him with to answer it.

Seriously. I don't think there is an ok amount of puppy self defense. Your poor dog shouldn't have to make those decisions for himself--it's your job to protect him and your job to teach your toddler manners.

[snarfywarning]

Thanks for stating the obvious.. but with a new dog, a cat, a 1 year old, and a 3 year old, constant vigilance isn't always easy

We are not crate training, but Annie does have a few hiding spots. So far, she likes under the futon, under my desk, and out on the deck. Today was snap-free, probably due to more supervision, and the baby learning his lesson yesterday.

I guess my real question was, is all the hype true about a dog biting once, and then always lusting for the taste of human blood, always ready to bite again, so on, so forth?

[greenmagick]

Its not that a dog bites once and gets bloodlust...its that once it gets far enough that a dog has to bite to be heard, that is what its going to continue to do usually. The dog will learn biting is what works. I have a very active 23 month old and 3 1/2 year old. Espcecially with a new dog, and one that is snapping, they can not be alone together for even a second. It is really best to tether the dog to you for the first several days to weeks anyhow.

[mamallama]

I know from experience that constant vigilance is not easy...but now you have this dog and she is snapping at your kids. You need to be vigilant--for the dog's sake as much as for your kids' sake.

Like greenmagick said, it's not so much bloodlust, but rather Annie doing what she needs to do to feel safe. Should the baby realize that Annie is just posturing and continue harassing her past the snap, Annie will progress to biting. You don't want your kid bit, and you can't rehome a dog that bites. Not to be overly dramatic, but while your kid will probably recover, it will be the end for Annie.

A crate would help. If you're opposed to it on philosophical grounds (that's another discussion,) you don't have to close the door. Annie will take comfort in having a space that is hers and inviolate. It will be easier for your toddlers to learn to not touch the crate than it will be for them to learn to not touch Annie when she's in location a, b, c, (or, d, e, f....)

You asked how much is too much. I say you should listen to Annie's words before she feels moved to action. Once she bites your child in the face, will you trust her again?

edited to add: If she does progress to biting and should your child require a doctor's care for the wound, you should know that you will be visited by your local animal control and then it will be out of your hands. Annie won't get a second chance, whether you think she deserves one or not.

I can't predict how many times Annie will snap before she bites. You shouldn't try to predict it either.

[snarfywarning]

Well, it isn't that we wont crate train, we just aren't, because she is already house broken, doesn't chew stuff up, and has to sleep with/near us...and I always assumed that is why people crate trained. But now that you mention it kinda like an indoor dog house, I am going to look into it

Like I said before, both the toddlers and Annie did so much better on day 2. I now wonder if it was just first day jitters. Either way, great advice for the crate and in general. Lots to think about.

Here is how day 2 went: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../IMG_15451.jpg

awwww.

[mamallama]

Cute picture!

I'm glad it's going better.

You didn't mention where she lived prior to your house. If it was a shelter situation, no doubt it will take her several weeks (up to a month or two) to recover enough for her true personality to shine through. If she was in a foster home I would hope her adjustment would be quicker, but either way it will take some time.

[Ola_]

Rather than having her retreat under furniture to hide (which could result in a bite if your toddler tries to follow and reach for her there) I would be using a few baby gates to make sure you can keep them separated if you're not there to watch.

This may not be a popular opinion, but if you cannot separate or supervise closely enough to prevent your children from hitting the dog in the face, you should not have a dog. It's not fair to the animal.

[snarfywarning]

Our house is like one giant sqauere, and so baby gates wouldn't really work.

And for a year and a half, she was chained up on a farm in the snow, and then was rescued by a guy who couldn't take care of her either for 2 months, and then for 6 months lived with a super busy big family with 2 mean chihuahuas, and she was getting bullied by them and the family was too busy for her and her issues, and so they gave her up.

It seems with every waking minute she becomes more loyal and loving, so now I feel kind of stupid for posting this after she snapped the first few hours she was here. :P

[mamallama]

So she's 2yrs old and in her 4th home.

I have a dog with similar history. She was 3 when I got her & she'd had 4 homes & 2 litters in the previous year. We don't know her history before that. She also came with health issues that were likely painful (and costly to resolve.)

We've had her for 18mos now.

Here she is now.

It just takes time to heal that kind of trauma.

In the beginning, I wasn't positive she wouldn't bite me. I gave her zero opportunity with my kids for several months. We worked into it gradually. I have only been really comfortable with her and my 2yo for the past 6mos. With other kids, I watch her/them like a hawk, and if I can't or if there is too much going on, she goes behind a door or a crate.

We have a circular floor plan--major pita with gates--but I made it work. You can buy gates to span very large openings. They're expensive, but the peace of mind is invaluable. Now I'm down to only using the kitchen gates (one on each standard sized doorway) only when other people's toddlers/unruly children come to visit. My dog has the options of staying outside, in my bedroom, or in the kitchen.

For the first year or so, I also used a crate.

Vigilance doesn't have to last forever. Your dog will heal. Your kids will learn. Other people's kids--that's a different story!

I don't think it's stupid at all to come with a question about adjusting to a new dog. This is a great place to crowd-source ideas.

[lilyka]

I would crate her. my dog LOVES her crate. it is a safe, calm, den sort of place for a dog. she has her favorite toys there (she puts them there herself) and gladly runs to her kennel whenever any of us tell her. She can even open and shut the door....its her new trick. very cute. this is not punishment for dogs. so long as the crate is not abused most dogs love their crate. every creature deserves to have their own space. safe from swinging hands of toddlers. while there may come a day when I don't lock the door any more I know she will always have that space that is just hers.

and in the end if you cannot keep your toddler from hitting the dog, if you are too busy, it really may just not be a good time for you to have a dog. it is important that you not let it escalate to that.