The "extras" in elementary - do they really retain it? - Page 2

[Savoir Faire]

Can I just give an AMEN for having little ones and feeling so confused??

I finally decided to skip formal education at five and six (probably) and unschool. And then, for some reason I'll never understand, I picked up the well trained mind book.

And I feel so confused, as they say you don't really need to do much with K kids-- and then there's tons of things about phonics and books and learning to read.

Now I feel as if I HAVE to push my K kid to read if I want to do well trained mind...which I don't know if I do.

I'm making myself dizzy.

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Can I just give an AMEN for having little ones and feeling so confused??

I finally decided to skip formal education at five and six (probably) and unschool. And then, for some reason I'll never understand, I picked up the well trained mind book.

And I feel so confused, as they say you don't really need to do much with K kids-- and then there's tons of things about phonics and books and learning to read.

Now I feel as if I HAVE to push my K kid to read if I want to do well trained mind...which I don't know if I do.

I'm making myself dizzy.

Aw, it's not meant to be overwhelming! I don't think you need to do a ton with WTM K- she talks about phonics, but for a few minutes a day. The rest can be done through play and interest driven activities.

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by theretohere

Aw, it's not meant to be overwhelming! I don't think you need to do a ton with WTM K- she talks about phonics, but for a few minutes a day. The rest can be done through play and interest driven activities.

that was my take

and READ of course -- nothing really till "first grade" and if your child is not ready for "first" till 8 so be it.

my understanding anyway

[raelize]

i agree that everything beyond the three r's is just gravy. but i also think that the important things to learn about each subject in the early years are the fundamentals- scientific method and just practice observing things (for science), the understanding that things happen in a timeline, that space and culture are not static, that they affect each other (geography/history), etc. these tings i think are important to instill. but they can be instilled in a number of ways, they can be repeated a number of ways, but they are the very important foundations for understanding later.

[Savoir Faire]

Oh thank you ladies.

I just have so much trouble understanding phonics books and my daughter just isn't interested AT ALL in reading those books-- though I do know she recognizes some sight words.

Reading really has become such a sore spot-- I love to read books to her but I'd love to learn to teach her to read as well.

Thank you for calming me down!!

[lach]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Oh thank you ladies.

I just have so much trouble understanding phonics books and my daughter just isn't interested AT ALL in reading those books-- though I do know she recognizes some sight words.

Reading really has become such a sore spot-- I love to read books to her but I'd love to learn to teach her to read as well.

Thank you for calming me down!!

If what you're doing isn't working, then it's not working and there's no use losing sleep over it. That's what I always try to remind myself when I put myself under too much pressure and things don't work out.

I agree that for K, WTM seems to just kind of go with the flow. And while WTM is pretty hard core in her reading directions (I believe that technically you're "behind" if you haven't pulled out 100 Easy Lessons when the child is 3... all I'll say about that is LOL), I know of families who have happily jumped right into a Classical 1st grade with a child who isn't reading yet. Sure, that means there's more reading aloud, but I don't think that necessarily has to be a bad thing.

And even if you DO decide that you really want literacy by time 1st grade comes around... well, you've got a whole nine months. That's a huge amount of time, both for you to figure out what works and for your daughter to develop. I mean, think about how much she's learned in the past nine months. So even if you do decide that it's a priority, which for the record I don't think is necessary, there's no point worrying now.

Have you looked at "Teach a Child to Read With Children's Books"? I thought it was a very interesting program. You can find an older edition for free on ERIC: that's where I read it. I don't know what they've changed in the newer editions, or if it's worth it to buy a new one. But it sounds like it might be more up your daughter's line.

[lovinlife1219]

I think it will depend on each child individually. When I think back to my school years, the best years for me were elementary. I retained the most information from grades 1-6. I can remember many interesting subjects and I think I did really well in a public elementary school. I'm glad that I was taught good literature, history and science at those grades/ages. That being said, fast-forward to grades 8-12 and I think that was a waste of my time (for me). I can't recall any information, I was just pushed through the system and didn't retain anything at all. I would have done much better at home, I think, where I could've made much better use of my time (had I had the resources available to me). So for me, the extras taught in elementary were a definite plus!

My five-year old is retaining a lot more than I think he is. We are using the K-12 virtual academy and at first I thought..."how much of this will he really remember and how much of this is busy work?" Like someone said, he'll retain what he enjoys and is interested in learning about. A lot of history (geography, really) that we are doing is fascinating to him. So is science. Not all of it, but a lot of it. Sometimes we will hit something that he finds un-interesting, so I just skim and paraphrase and we move on. He'll hear someone talk about something he learned about in conversation and his eyes will light up and he'll say "hey! I know about that! We learned about that!" and he'll get all into that adult conversation (by his choice). So now, I really like that I'm exposing him to all of these subjects, not with the expectation for him to memorize it...just to expose him to it and take what he wants from it. Hope that makes sense!

[jessicaSAR]

I agree with the previous posts pointing out that young children really are retaining information. Children retain a ton information. They are like little sponges. And, if they are constantly taking in information, then I would much rather it be history and geography, than the latest tv, movies or video games.

Of course a young child is not going to take in information on the same level as an older child, but that is the reason the history cycle is repeated 2 or 3 times in classical education. Children may only be learning "about" history at the earlier stages, but that learning sets the stage for higher level learning later on.

I also went to a public high school, and when I got to college and graduate school I had to spend many, many hours learning all the things that I did not learn in elementary and high school. I certainly wish I had had a classical education. You simply cannot engage in higher level thinking until you learn the "who," "what'" "where," and "when." And, I think it is a disservice to students to try to get them to engage in analysis of history or philosophy when they have no idea what they are talking about. As a college professor, it used to drive me absolutely batty that my students truly believed that their "opinion" of what Locke or Rousseau or Kant meant in a certain passage was equally as valid as my opinion or that of other learned historians and philosophers. And, they would press their claims even though they knew nothing about the Glorious Revolution, or the French Revolution, or the Enlightenment. I think it is a very misguided philosophy to say that because you cannot analyze history at age 6 or 7 that you should just forget about it until you are old enough to think independently. You can't think independently or with originality if you don't have much to think about.

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

Oh thank you ladies.

I just have so much trouble understanding phonics books and my daughter just isn't interested AT ALL in reading those books-- though I do know she recognizes some sight words.

Reading really has become such a sore spot-- I love to read books to her but I'd love to learn to teach her to read as well.

Thank you for calming me down!!

If it's the book that is the problem- can you reproduce the lessons on a whiteboard, a chalkboard, or with magnetic letters or letter tiles? That really helped my DD1.

[Momma Aimee]

Have you looked at "Teach a Child to Read With Children's Books"? I thought it was a very interesting program. You can find an older edition for free on ERIC: that's where I read it. I don't know what they've changed in the newer editions, or if it's worth it to buy a new one. But it sounds like it might be more up your daughter's line.

I have looked at that book on Amazon.com -- what can you tell me about how the program works?

is it more sight word -- or does it cover phonics?

[Momma Aimee]

And, I think it is a disservice to students to try to get them to engage in analysis of history or philosophy when they have no idea what they are talking about. As a college professor, it used to drive me absolutely batty that my students truly believed that their "opinion" of what Locke or Rousseau or Kant meant in a certain passage was equally as valid as my opinion or that of other learned historians and philosophers. And, they would press their claims even though they knew nothing about the Glorious Revolution, or the French Revolution, or the Enlightenment. I think it is a very misguided philosophy to say that because you cannot analyze history at age 6 or 7 that you should just forget about it until you are old enough to think independently. You can't think independently or with originality if you don't have much to think aboout

[Ruthiegirl]

Originally Posted by scheelimama

I know classical education really has an emphasis on history, geography, science, art, etc. I've heard more than once from seasoned homeschoolers that anything above learning to read and write in the first few years is "gravy" since everything gets covered again and they really don't retain much at these ages. Many of them say anything before 4th/5th grade is covered again in more depth and is really not necessary. What do you all think?

I think the 'extras' are what my kids really retain. Sure, they can read and they know their math basics, but what they LOVE is piano, dance, art classes, big, messy science projects, homemade volcanos, 'postcards from around the world' geography projects, myths and legends from Ancient Egypt, etc, etc, etc.

The gravy is the fun part in our house. I love the gravy, my kids love the gravy. I can't imagine homeschooling without all the fun extras. And yes, they retain a huge amount of information. They know the myths of Odysseus by heart, they can explain the basic principles of matter, they can play music...because we had fun learning about these things.

That's where it is for me -- keep it fun. My kids are 8 and 6 and I am constantly awed by their amazing capacity to learn new things.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee

I have looked at that book on Amazon.com -- what can you tell me about how the program works?

is it more sight word -- or does it cover phonics?

It's uses both. It's been a while since I read it, so maybe someone else can jump in if I get something wrong. But basically he took a very successful program that was developed for elementary school students who are very behind in reading skills, and fiddled with it just slightly to make it more appropriate for a homeschooling parent. (But really since the original program involved lots of one on one tutoring, I don't think it's all that different).

You work through two books each lesson with the child, one easy for her and one that's a little bit of a challenge. And you work through the books, word by word. He has a list of words that he recommends the child memorize before starting. There's also a writing component, where the student is supposed to write a sentence every day, and learns some rules that way too.

I did find the link, btw. Again, it's an older edition... but it's free and you can't beat that!

[Momma Aimee]

Originally Posted by lach

It's uses both. It's been a while since I read it, so maybe someone else can jump in if I get something wrong. But basically he took a very successful program that was developed for elementary school students who are very behind in reading skills, and fiddled with it just slightly to make it more appropriate for a homeschooling parent. (But really since the original program involved lots of one on one tutoring, I don't think it's all that different).

You work through two books each lesson with the child, one easy for her and one that's a little bit of a challenge. And you work through the books, word by word. He has a list of words that he recommends the child memorize before starting. There's also a writing component, where the student is supposed to write a sentence every day, and learns some rules that way too.

I did find the link, btw. Again, it's an older edition... but it's free and you can't beat that!

thanks for the link -- i will need to look at it when i am alone, not when i am a gym

but from your discription -- i take it that is it a program more to pratice / strethen reading .. rather than a introduction for a younger non-reading child?

i will look at it more, we are not even started yet adn i am trying to get a handle on the best way to teach / present reading and phonics

thnanks

[momtokea]

Originally Posted by Ruthiegirl

I think the 'extras' are what my kids really retain. Sure, they can read and they know their math basics, but what they LOVE is piano, dance, art classes, big, messy science projects, homemade volcanos, 'postcards from around the world' geography projects, myths and legends from Ancient Egypt, etc, etc, etc.

The gravy is the fun part in our house. I love the gravy, my kids love the gravy. I can't imagine homeschooling without all the fun extras. And yes, they retain a huge amount of information. They know the myths of Odysseus by heart, they can explain the basic principles of matter, they can play music...because we had fun learning about these things.

That's where it is for me -- keep it fun. My kids are 8 and 6 and I am constantly awed by their amazing capacity to learn new things.

I totally agree with this!! I think it's all about how you approach and present the extras. You can give them a boring textbook and make them answer comprehension questions, or you can do fun projects and go on cool field trips. The former will kill their love of learning and they will retain nothing, but the latter will be fun, they will retain it all, and have wonderful memories of homeschooling. When my children say they love homeschooling they are saying they love the 'extras', the 'gravy'. They are not saying they love slogging through their math book at the kitchen table with mom all day.... they love the projects, the activities, and the field trips. They love the 'gravy'.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by scheelimama

is it really necessary to place a heavy emphasis on history/geography/social studies/science (science beyond what they'd get by just observing nature) in the elementary grades?

with my children, our main focus in grades k-3 is the 3 r's. we definitely incorporate history/geography/science/art, etc. but, it's not a specific scope & sequence or timeline. we are just following our own interests & have lots of resources to pull from. for history & geography, we use a lot of living books (and even fairy tales, fables, & fiction books). my daughter specifically loves biographies, so i have a lot of books in that regard. they also love the program "liberty kids". for science, i have a ton of the "let's read & find out about" science books. we also love gail gibbons and janice van cleave & they love to watch "the magic schoolbus". for art, we have several books to pull ideas from, but we mostly just enjoy creating things on our own. my children get $25 a month to buy materials for whatever art projects they want to pursue. we get a lot of ideas from crayola and dick blick websites. we also incorporate united streaming a lot, and they have videos for all subjects.

anyway, i'll probably follow a scope & sequence for these subjects as my children get older, but right now what we're doing is working just fine.

[scheelimama]

Interesting that this thread got revived. See, I was using an "interesting" science curriculum, Sonlight science, which is all fun books and a fun weekly experiment. They enjoyed it, but truly weren't retaining any of it. They also don't really "get" the idea of history yet and struggle with any sense of time. Neither my 5 or 6 yr old even really understand what a week is yet (and I've tried to help them with this concept in numerous ways).

I can see how children might really enjoy the "gravy" but it just wasn't really working for us, not for now anyway. Maybe in another year or two. But I feel pretty confident that I'm not going to stress about the necessity of it anymore. Not until they are closer to jr. high. For elementary, I'll probably just follow their lead and do fun science, history and geography, anything that catches their interest. Right now, my 6 yr. old has been really interested in Little House on the Prairie.