About fear of un-vaxed kids

[momtobe8234]

We plan to vaccinate on a selective/delayed schedule but feel strongly about the vaccines we will get for our baby. Many of my friends do not vaccinate their kids at all. I have been thinking a lot about this topic and thought this would be the best place to ask since everyone seems very knowledgeable. I hope it does not come off as trying to debate - I'm really looking for info and respect everyone's decisions on this topic.

So, I've heard stories from friends about playgroups, daycares or other places refusing to take their kids, or even comments from friends or family, that they don't want their kids around un-vaxed kids b/c they could be carrying diseases or whatever. I thought the response to that was, well, if you are so trustful in the vaccines you DO get for your kids, then what are you worried about?

But I was thinking, isn't the problem with that response, that, what about kids who are too young to be vaccinated/or who don't have a full series completed? I got thinking about it after reading some blog on vaccines that talked about a case recently (?) where a few kids picked up measles from an unvaccinated child in a doctor's office waiting room. One or two babies caught it who were too young to have been vax'ed for measles. Isn't this the type of case where if un-vaxed kids weren't allowed in the practice, (or if it were a daycare, etc), that those who are too young to be vaxed wouldn't have been exposed?

I realize some diseases or vaccines, like DTaP right?, doesn't prevent carriage or transmission (which confuses me because why do they recommend that adults get vaxed to help protect infants from pertussis?), so even vax'ed kids can transmit disease to too-young-to-be-vax'ed children as well. But for other vaccines where that isn't the case. i.e. Hib or Pc, isn't an un'vaxed child more likely to be carrying/spread this than one who has been vaccinated?

So how do I combat that kind of argument if someone brings it up? There are certain vax'es we wont do, where I guess my child could be more likely to spread something to an un'vaxed baby at some point. And I'm asking too b/c I'm worried suddenly about whether hanging out with large groups of unvaxed kids will be a good idea with a young infant, in terms of the diseases we do plan to vax for. Thanks for any input!

[MyZoeJane]

Um, you simply say:

"If the vaccines you feel so strongly about actually WORK then why on God's green Earth would you feel threatened by my unvaccinated kids?"

[possum]

There was a great article in the most recent Mothering magazine on this. Have you had a chance to check it out?
Melinda

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by possum

There was a great article in the most recent Mothering magazine on this. Have you had a chance to check it out?
Melinda

I don't usually put a whole lot of stock in the "science" articles that show up in Mothering. But this one was different. It was extremely well-researched and balanced, written by a selective vaxer, and it addressed this exact issue: do unvaxed children transmit VPDs to vaxed kids. It's worth checking out. The author really did her homework.

[momtobe8234]

Originally Posted by MyZoeJane

Um, you simply say:

"If the vaccines you feel so strongly about actually WORK then why on God's green Earth would you feel threatened by my unvaccinated kids?"

yeah that's the thing, what about unvaxed kids around kids who are too young to be vaxed? (ie a child who is not vaxed for chicken pox around a child who is vaxed on the AAP schedule but is too young for the chick pox vaccine - obviously not everyone is afraid of chicken pox but just an example).

[momtobe8234]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I don't usually put a whole lot of stock in the "science" articles that show up in Mothering. But this one was different. It was extremely well-researched and balanced, written by a selective vaxer, and it addressed this exact issue: do unvaxed children transmit VPDs to vaxed kids. It's worth checking out. The author really did her homework.

thanks, will have to read- is it avail. online? Ive never seen the actual magazine unfortunately!

[the2amigos]

Two things come to mind:
1. None of the vaccines are 100% effective, many not even very close...so even the vaxed kids can carry/transmit/get the disease.
2. Most adults are not "current" on their vaxes. How do we know the MMR "we" got 20+ years ago is still effective for us? Likely many of us are not "immune" anymore.

So why is it more likley an unvaxed child would cause a problem in a too young baby? Just as likely the adult population could be the issue.

[momtobe8234]

Originally Posted by the2amigos

Two things come to mind:
1. None of the vaccines are 100% effective, many not even very close...so even the vaxed kids can carry/transmit/get the disease.
2. Most adults are not "current" on their vaxes. How do we know the MMR "we" got 20+ years ago is still effective for us? Likely many of us are not "immune" anymore.

So why is it more likley an unvaxed child would cause a problem in a too young baby? Just as likely the adult population could be the issue.

Very good point about adults! had not thought of that. I guess I mostly think of kids b/c of the close contact with lots of mouthing and sharing toys and overall lack of sense of hygiene among very young kids (not saying all adults are much better lol) but you know how it is (think schools, daycares). But that is a very good point!

[Deborah]

I think one of the dangers of vaccines is that they can induce a false sense of safety. The fact of the matter is that very small babies are vulnerable and do need some protection. Some of the realistic approaches to protecting small babies from illness:

Frequent hand washing--which includes asking anyone who handles your baby to wash their hands first.

Being very moderate about taking babies out in public, or keeping them very close to a parent (in a sling, for example).

Not allowing small children to handle a baby without hand washing first.

Keeping away from anyone with any sickness if at all possible (there are hundreds of dangerous illnesses for which there are no vaccines).

Breastfeeding if at all possible.

Avoiding antibiotics if at all possible.

Supporting mother's gut health to support baby's gut health.

Avoiding doctor's offices (hotbeds of germs and diseases).

When I see people toting a newborn in a baby carrier through a busy mall I cringe.

[miriam]

The herd theory is not based on anything scientific.

So forget it.

[Sailor]

Yes, the adults not being current is a good point. I'd wager to say that most adults don't go back and make sure they're current on all their vaccines. So, if someone is going to worry about un-vaxed children, then they should include all the adults not up to date on their shots.

I think this question comes down to what you believe in terms of vaccines and their effectiveness. I don't think the herd theory is as valid as the research suggests. I took several statistical analysis courses in college, and after that experience I am highly suspicious of the percentages some of these theories espouse. I don't plan to vax, and don't worry about un-vaxed kids/adults/etc.

I do agree that precautions are a good idea with newborns. In Poland, where I'm from, you don't ever touch someone else's newborn, and even in the family, you don't touch that newborn until after you have washed your hands. It's just common sense.

I actually shudder at the idea of taking my newborn into the pediatrician for "well baby" visits. It's a hot bed of all kinds of germs. I think I'll need to find a doctor who will make house calls! Because it just doesn't make any sense to me, to take a newborn into an office where sick kids are coming in. Germs spraying everywhere.

[JAZE MOMMIE]

They recommend the adult pertusis shot because the childhood shot wears off and older teens /adults do not have the usual WHOOP sound when they get whooping cough and say it is brochitis and are not treated and there fore spread it around .

[alegna]

Originally Posted by JAZE MOMMIE

They recommend the adult pertusis shot because the childhood shot wears off and older teens /adults do not have the usual WHOOP sound when they get whooping cough and say it is brochitis and are not treated and there fore spread it around .

yeah... but having the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting it and passing it around... it just basically prevents the whoop

Causing the exact problem you mention.

-Angela

[alegna]

To the OP- when this comes up I always first look around... what about the live vaccines? I don't know ANY vaxers who quarantine their kids after live vaccines. Do you plan on it? Because if we are truly about protecting those too young to be vaxed, that's what needs to be done.

Thing is, pre-vaxes, the young ones were protected b/c they nursed and their mothers had natural immunity to pass on via the placenta and milk.

That's gone now. Vaccines have CREATED a vulnerable window for the very young.

-Angela

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by momtobe8234

So, I've heard stories from friends about playgroups, daycares or other places refusing to take their kids, or even comments from friends or family, that they don't want their kids around un-vaxed kids b/c they could be carrying diseases or whatever. I thought the response to that was, well, if you are so trustful in the vaccines you DO get for your kids, then what are you worried about?

I was just thinking about this when I was reading this article on the cost of formula feeding on society.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...t/103/4/S1/870

It seems that babies fed formula are much more sickly than babies who aren't. Would you avoid a baby on formula as you have a higher chance of being exposed to illness in this baby?

[chaoticzenmom]

It sounds like you've done a lot of research. A lot more than I did with my first! I knew nothing.

You mentioned Hib and PC. You should do a little more research on both of those looking into serotype replacement and risk factors. The Prevnar vaccine protects against certain types of bacteria, but increase the risks of your child getting and passing on other, more serious types of bacteria. So, your vaccinated child will be more dangerous in that sense. Every 5 years or so, they keep having to add 7 or so more bacteria to the shot trying to fix what they broke. The prevnar vaccine started out with 3 bacteria strains...now it's 7 and there's a new one coming out that has 13 bacteria. So, 10year olds are only protected against 3 or 7 bacteria, but are a higher risk of contracting those other bacteria. So, even a fully vaxed child who is a year old will not be as protected against those other 6 bacteria. In a few years, they'll have to add 6 or more bacteria to the vaccine because you can't outrun mother nature. You mess with her and she'll show you who's boss.

I've heard that Hib also causes serotype replacement...and that it doesn't. But, if you're not in a high risk category, you don't really have to worry about that. Only children under 2 who are not breastfed and who are otherwise immunocompromised and attend daycare should even consider getting the shot.

The reason that doctors don't want non-vaxed children in their office has more to do with P4P incentives than their true fear of non-vaxed children. Also, it has to do with cognitive dissonance. If they're constantly seeing healthy, non-vaxed children, they're going to start doubting that they're really doing good by vaccinating other children. I know a lot of people who don't vaccinate and I'm amazed at the rosy cheeks, healthy eyes and lack of general health problems in the non-vaccinated vs. the children that I know who are vaccinated (my own vaccinated child included).

So, look up serotype replacement and p4p incentives and you may find some more answers.

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by momtobe8234

yeah that's the thing, what about unvaxed kids around kids who are too young to be vaxed? (ie a child who is not vaxed for chicken pox around a child who is vaxed on the AAP schedule but is too young for the chick pox vaccine - obviously not everyone is afraid of chicken pox but just an example).

Going by your theory, in the above scenario, you would also have to keep your too-young-to-vax kid away from all other too-young-to-vax kids, and any random adults/older kids whose vaxes have worn off already, or who missed their boosters, etc.

[allnaturalmom]

n/m

[momtobe8234]

I like your ideas Deborah, thanks!

Originally Posted by SheBear

Going by your theory, in the above scenario, you would also have to keep your too-young-to-vax kid away from all other too-young-to-vax kids, and any random adults/older kids whose vaxes have worn off already, or who missed their boosters, etc.

Another very good point!

[xmasbaby7]

Originally Posted by alegna

Thing is, pre-vaxes, the young ones were protected b/c they nursed and their mothers had natural immunity to pass on via the placenta and milk.

That's gone now. Vaccines have CREATED a vulnerable window for the very young.

-Angela

This is, to me, the sad public health failure of vaccines for things like pox, measles, mumps, and rubella, which would still be circulating as minor childhood illnesses with rare complications were we to have never created a vaccine for them.

Infants would be protected because they were protected from nursing moms who had lifelong immunity, but now that isn't the case.