Religion and nonbelievers

[Oubliette8]

I've always wondered about this, and I figure here is the perfect place to ask. I am an atheist, I've been one my whole life. I do have religious friends though, and sometimes when we gather for dinner at a friends place, they say a prayer. What is the proper and respectful thing to do during prayer to a god you don't believe in? Usually I bow my head and stay silent, maybe reflect on all the hard work it takes to make food and the lives of whatever it is we're eating (silently, of course) If everyone else joins hands, I do as well (although I'm not sure WHY we join hands? it just seems it would be more disrespectful not too, as it would stick out and make a gap in the circle) What do others do?

Also, when you go to a religious service, should you sing? If there is standing, sitting, kneeling etc, should one also stand, sit, or kneel? Is it considered rude not to participate? Or would it be more offensive for a nonbeliever to participate? I know about communion in most churches, and abstain there. I'm curious about other religious practices that occur during a service. Do you think it varies much from religion to religion? I went to a synagogue once and they were very eager to have me participate (showed me the phonetics in the song books, asked me to break bread etc) even though they knew I was not Jewish. I'm sure an Orthodox congregation might respond differently? I'm mostly worried about different denominations of Christian, the belief systems seem to vary so much! -Oubliette

[lilyka]

Well I am an Orthodox Christian and can answer from that perspective. Especially since we are on campus of a university and across the street from their multi denominational (protestant) seminary and we have alots of classes that require their students to come to a service.

So you are free to kneel or not to. cross yourself or not to. pray along or not to. sing a long or not. you can venerate icons and stuff if you want but you don't need to nor are you expected to. there are several spots where everyone stands even the oldest old ladies and even people who are physically incapable of standing at least sit up a little straighter. . . It would be good if you stood then. there is a point at which everyone kneels. and everyone bows. It would be best if you did also or at least inclined your head out of respect. but if you don't that is ok too. you are a visitor. We really don't expect anything of visitors. except that they have good manners. don't talk too much, turn off your cell phone. off. no playing. seriously absolutely no one sits through church texting or fiddling with electronics. the only people who ever step out to take calls are Dr.s on call and one guy who was a secret service agent. its considered beyond rude. if you so much as check the time all eyes will be on you. back to church....you are free to go up and recieve a blessing and blessed bread. This is for everyone regardless of is you believe or not. and when the service is over you are free to come down and have some blessed coffee and donuts.

Its funny you mentioned the holding hands thing. man I hate that and I often refrain. it drives me crazy. i can't really explain why. but when I am at someones house during the prayer...I usually just bow my head and play along even if my mind is a million miles away. the most respectful thing I can do at times is just keep my mouth shut. if someone is over I usually do a quick blessing "In the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirt, Bless this food and those who eat it Amen" I try not to make others uncomfortable one way or another and really a lot of people just wouldn't know where to start if there wasn't some sort of blessing

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

Also, when you go to a religious service, should you sing? If there is standing, sitting, kneeling etc, should one also stand, sit, or kneel? Is it considered rude not to participate? Or would it be more offensive for a nonbeliever to participate? I know about communion in most churches, and abstain there. I'm curious about other religious practices that occur during a service. Do you think it varies much from religion to religion? I went to a synagogue once and they were very eager to have me participate (showed me the phonetics in the song books, asked me to break bread etc) even though they knew I was not Jewish. I'm sure an Orthodox congregation might respond differently? I'm mostly worried about different denominations of Christian, the belief systems seem to vary so much! -Oubliette

You should do what you feel comfortable with. People should be paying attention to Mass/service and not focusing on you, anyway. If you feel called to sing, please do. More voices is always good. It is generally a good idea to stand when others stand and sit when others sit, but kneeling is usually not required. Although, scooting forward a bit in your seat/pew so the person behind you can kneel is always a nice gesture.

[EFmom]

I'm agnostic, raised Catholic and attended various denominations for years until I finally stopped pretending.

I often have to attend both RC and protestant church services for family reasons. I sit quietly, stand if it makes sense to stand. I don't kneel. I don't bow my head. I don't sing or read aloud with the congregation unless it is something I can agree with, which almost never happens. I don't participate in ritualistic behavior. I'll shake hands with the person next to me if they do the "kiss of peace," but I wish them a peaceful day, not anything with religious overtones. I agree, turn off your cell phone, although members of the church are as likely as non-members to be guilty of ringing during the service. Don't chat with other people.

At every church where I've been a member, nobody really worried about what visitors did, so long as they weren't disruptive.

[smeisnotapirate]

They asked you to break bread in a synagogue? Weird. Or are you talking about "hamotzi" which is the blessing before eating the challah after the Shabbat service? Was it a messianic service?

I would echo the above. In services, do what you feel comfortable doing. I'm Jewish and frequently find myself at Christian services. If it's a song that reflects my understanding of G-d, sure, I'll sing. If it doesn't, I'll just stand and look at people.

I sit during kneeling because it's unobtrusive. During grace, I'll either offer to say grace (best option, in my opinion) or I'll sit with my hands folded and say my own grace - like you said, reflecting on the hard work and etc. I'll also say my religious blessings to myself. If my son is there, I will say them out loud for us after the other grace is finished.

[Sailor]

I'm an atheist, and go to church with my family for the Christmas eve mass. I sit when people kneel, and stand when everyone stands. I don't do the sign of the cross, don't sing, don't participate in the mass. Basically, I try to just be an unobtrusive observer.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

\. Although, scooting forward a bit in your seat/pew so the person behind you can kneel is always a nice gesture.

oh yeah, if there is a kneeler definitely lean or scoot forward. I nearly smacked someone in the back the other day because I wasn't paying attention to if they moved or not. I would have felt so bad this isn't a religous thing, just for your own saftey

[Oubliette8]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

They asked you to break bread in a synagogue? Weird. Or are you talking about "hamotzi" which is the blessing before eating the challah after the Shabbat service? Was it a messianic service?

I'm not quite sure, the first thing sounds like it might be it. It definitely wasn't a messianic service. There are only two synagogues in our part of the state so they cater to all the Jewish families in the area unless they want to drive into the city in the next state over where there is more diversity in Jewish congregations. It was after the service, before everybody sat down to eat. they brought out a big piece of bread and asked me to take the first piece. I had to ask the significance, and as I recall, I didn't get a really clear answer beyond "tradition", but it was awfully tasty.

I did really enjoy that service, they made me feel very welcome. I wish I could have brought one of my Jewish friends to explain everything to me, but sadly they all live too far away. I've done some reading, but still didn't quite understand all of what went on, and I really would have liked to understand it better. -Neb

[Oubliette8]

Thanks for the answers so far! I don't carry a cell phone, so I don't have to worry about that. I was a bit surprised about checking ones watch, I'll try to avoid that in the future. I suppose I can see how that would be rude.

Hearing from religious people is very helpful, I know what I as an atheist feel comfortable with, but I'm never quite sure what the congregation expects- if I participate, I wonder if they is disrespectful because I don't believe, if I don't participate, I wonder if that is disrespectful because its sort of a community thing. Its good to here that beyond sitting and standing, most congregations don't seem to mind if you participate so long as you are otherwise appropriately behaved. I'd love to here some more perspectives. -Oubliette

[Eeyore35]

well,I was SEventh Day Adventist until last fall,ad now attenda Baptist chrch.

At the Adventist church,you can participate as much or as little as you like. They stand/sit /kneel a lot,but you can sit quietly the whole time if you wish. If its ordinances week,(communion nad foot washing) again,you can participate or not. cell phones need to be turned off during the service,but you can look at your watch,doodle on your bulletin,stuff like that. If you have a child with you,(or baby) take them out at the first sign of problems. It's just how it's done.
The Baptist service,there is a lot of standing (for prayer at times,and singing) but again ok to sit. No kneeling. they are much kid friendlier than SDA. if its communion week,you can again participate or not,and there is no footwashing!

Oh,and both churches take up offering,but no one will think it odd that you dont put anything in.

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

Thanks for the answers so far! I don't carry a cell phone, so I don't have to worry about that. I was a bit surprised about checking ones watch, I'll try to avoid that in the future. I suppose I can see how that would be rude.

In the churches I most often attend, congregants check their watches all the time.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

I'm not quite sure, the first thing sounds like it might be it. It definitely wasn't a messianic service. There are only two synagogues in our part of the state so they cater to all the Jewish families in the area unless they want to drive into the city in the next state over where there is more diversity in Jewish congregations. It was after the service, before everybody sat down to eat. they brought out a big piece of bread and asked me to take the first piece. I had to ask the significance, and as I recall, I didn't get a really clear answer beyond "tradition", but it was awfully tasty.

I did really enjoy that service, they made me feel very welcome. I wish I could have brought one of my Jewish friends to explain everything to me, but sadly they all live too far away. I've done some reading, but still didn't quite understand all of what went on, and I really would have liked to understand it better. -Neb

Ah, ok. That's normal. We eat two loaves (or rolls or whatever) of bread on Shabbat to symbolize the double portion of manna that G-d gave us when we were wandering in the desert.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

Thanks for the answers so far! I don't carry a cell phone, so I don't have to worry about that. I was a bit surprised about checking ones watch, I'll try to avoid that in the future. I suppose I can see how that would be rude.

checking your watch isn't a big deal. its more just the pulling out the cell phone to check the time. and thats may just be in my parish but I would think that is the norm in most Orthodox churches. in protestant churches i have been in (non-denominational, focused on young people, hip trendy centric) people were fiddling on their phones/palm pilots non stop.

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by lilyka

back to church....you are free to go up and recieve a blessing and blessed bread. This is for everyone regardless of is you believe or not.

Can you clarify this for me please? What is "blessed bread" in the Orthodox Church?

[lolar2]

There is a series of books (2 or 3) called How to be a Perfect Stranger, about the proper way to behave at religious services, festivals, and houses of all kinds of different religions.

[lilyka]

it is bread the priest has blessed but is not for communion. the loaf made for communion is large (there are very specific procedures in the Orthodox church about making the "prosphora". no ordinary bread will do) but only the very center is used. the rest is cut up and distributed with a blessing. since it is blessed it is holy though so if you would recieve some and decided you didn't want it or couldn't eat please don't throw it away. you can just leave it sitting somewhere in the church and someone will know what to do with it.

[lilyka]

I read this (its not real) the other day and thought of this thread right away...

http://www.theoniondome.com/2009/08/alex/

[Adele_Mommy]

The Parenting Beyond Belief blog, The Meming of Life, recently linked to another blog that I think is pretty neat: Atheist Etiquette

Here are three posts on this blog on this very topic:

To bow or Not to Bow?
To bow or not to Bow, redux
Atheists in Church

[lilyka]

in this whole thread I have never put myself in the place of being a visitor at another church. the only church I would imagine it would come up is a Catholic church and I would cross myself but I would do it the Orthodox way and I do not think I would bow....maybe, it would depend on why we were bowing. but probably not. I wouldn't kiss anything or venerate anything. but I would stand when everyone stands and sit and I don't know....I would probably get instructions from my priest before going....in protestant churches I do not sing the hymns unless i know tham and have decided I can stand behind the doctrine. otherwise i can't think of anything I would have trouble doing at a protestant church, except take communion and I doubt anyone would even notice if I let it pass.

[Tradd]

Really, there's no issue as long as you don't cause a ruckus, take screaming kids (I mean screaming bloody murder, not just cute little kid noise) out to settle them down, turn your cell phone off/on vibrate and don't text/make calls during the service. If you think you might not last the entire service, just sit at the end of a pew/row (so you don't have to crawl over people to get out), and maybe towards the back. If you feel the need to take pictures before/during/after the service (like at a wedding or maybe you just like the architecture or stained glass), ask a greeter/usher before you go in. Some churches don't allow it, others only if you don't use a flash.

I'm an Orthodox Christian. I'm in choir, and the way we're arranged I face the congregation (we're up in the front on one side and not in a loft), and have an extremely good view of virtually everyone in the church (really good people watching, sometimes!) Our Sunday Divine Liturgy (Eucharist) can be kinda longer than some folks are used to - 1:30-2 hours. And we stand for everything except the sermon, although we've got chairs (not pews) in rows, so you can sit down if you're having issues standing. We had a bunch of non-Orthodox visitors today. You can tell they're non-Orthodox because they don't cross themselves at all. Anyway, one guy left right after the sermon. Was sitting on the end of a row towards the back. Just quietly got up and left. Another few folks (about 5-6 together) left right before Communion. One family stayed all the way to the end. I didn't get a chance to greet them since their toddler was getting antsy. I think the wife had attended before, as she looked somewhat familiar.

Not totally a story about a non-believer, but it concerns a person who thought Orthodox was a bunch of bunk and got very vocal about it. About five years ago, I was at an Orthodox wedding. Close friends. The DH of the family (in his early 60s) had converted a few years earlier from being a Protestant minister. His wife and two of the three daughters converted at the same time, the youngest a little later. Anyway, the middle daughter got married. Some elderly male member of the bride's family was not at ALL happy about the family converting and having to attend an hour-long wedding in an Orthodox church. How do I know this? Because he stood behind the bride's father throughout the entire wedding saying terrible, nasty things about Orthodoxy, the family, the church, everything. I was on the other side of the church, quite a ways back and I could hear him loud and clear. I'm not sure why some other member of the family didn't hush him.

So, if you (general you) go and other than a civil debate about doctrine, beliefs, music, liturgical things, etc., want to say something not nice, please do it away from the church and/or church members. No one likes to hear their beloved parish/congregation trashed. One of the things that was a red flag when I was dating a guy late last year (although he was Orthodox) is that our first date after he first visited my church, he was ripping the music left and right - um, he knew how very well I loved being in choir and how much I loved our music.