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Religion and nonbelievers - Page 2

post #21 of 31
I'm an Episcopalian and we love visitors! We do all we can to make our sometimes-complicated shuffle of prayer books and hymnals understandable to visitors and we have an area at the back of the church for children who get restless.....we know they sometimes need to leave the sanctuary to respect the experience of the other congregants, but we do what we can to help them stay with it.

We're one of the few demoninations that welcomes anyone to participate in our whole service. We USED to invite 'all baptised Christians' to the altar to take communion, but now we invite anyone who wishes to join us. People can come up and receive a blessing but no bread and wine, or just bread or just wine or both. While the words say "the Blood of Christ" and "the Body of Christ", we also acknowledge that this ritual can simply represent to someone a communal meal.

We welcome singing or any other participation that a visitor may feel is appropriate, but we also try to be as understanding as we can that some people are there to participate in other ways than for worship (we're in a heavily-trafficked tourist area). We post signs at the entrances with some basic directions like remembering to keep silence to facilitate private prayer and to turn off cell phones.

The only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered is that some churches ask that services be respected as temporal and fleeting....no recording of music, no photography or videography. We've occasionally had issues with brides wanting a video of the ceremony, for example. I think we've relaxed those rules a bit these days, but some congregations take it very seriously.

ETA: We do get a bit grumbly about the "twice-a-lifers" who show up in a white dress as a baby to be baptised and then some years later in a pine box. And, gasp, even worse the twice-a-year Christians who sit in 'our' pews for Christmas and Easter, but that's not really where are hearts are. We welcome folks who are there to see us as a curiosity....who knows when a message about social justice or compassion might not just take root?
post #22 of 31
In my opinion and experience, the most respectful thing to do in most situations is to participate as much as your own conscience allows.
post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
In my opinion and experience, the most respectful thing to do in most situations is to participate as much as your own conscience allows.
Your comment above and MammaG's comment about Episcopalians having open communion for all Christians brings something else to mind. If one belongs to a church (either congregation or denomination) that practices open communion, for example, that doesn't mean that one is going to be allowed to receive communion in another Christian body. Unfortunately, I witnessed one or two ugly, loud scenes in an Orthodox Church when someone who was *not* Orthodox demanded to be given Communion. Of course, the priest refused - we don't practice open communion, and many priests won't commune you if you are unknown to them or if you're a visitor and haven't contacted him several days before. Communion is a very serious matter with the Orthodox. It's the priest responsibility to guard the chalice - and he will answer for improperly guarding it.
post #24 of 31
I think if you are in a home of faith you respect the home. Faith after all if Faith in the unknown- religious people know this. That faith is not something that can be proven, it is something that can not be seen. It is just as important that you respect their faith and views as you would like them to do yours.

If you feel wrong in participting then do not go to those events or excuse yourself from those moments where you are not comfortable.

I am searching for my spirit right now, so I have had lots of wonderful talks with people on the religous end and the athiest end as well. It is very eye opening on both ends to see their point. It really comes down to the ability to have faith in the unknown v's having faith in only the proven. Some will argue that there is proof in the unknown.

*shrug*
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by MammaG View Post
The only thing I can think of that hasn't been covered is that some churches ask that services be respected as temporal and fleeting....no recording of music, no photography or videography. We've occasionally had issues with brides wanting a video of the ceremony, for example. I think we've relaxed those rules a bit these days, but some congregations take it very seriously.?

thats really interesting. I have never heard of a church not allowing photography during a service. Is this common?

Quote:
ETA: We do get a bit grumbly about the "twice-a-lifers" who show up in a white dress as a baby to be baptised and then some years later in a pine box. And, gasp, even worse the twice-a-year Christians who sit in 'our' pews for Christmas and Easter, but that's not really where are hearts are. We welcome folks who are there to see us as a curiosity....who knows when a message about social justice or compassion might not just take root?
Why would you be grumbly about this?
post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
thats really interesting. I have never heard of a church not allowing photography during a service. Is this common?
Somewhat, in my experience. I belonged to two Episcopalian parishes that either didn't allow photography during a wedding or really restricted it - such as no flashes, and photographers had to stay in one place.

Orthodox parishes I've belonged to - no restrictions, other than you don't walk between the priest and the iconostasis (icon screen dividing altar area from body of church), and you also don't get in the way of the priest or anyone participating in the service (bride and groom, attendants, etc). If that happens, then all bets are off. I remember that during a baptism at my previous parish, an uncle of the baby being baptized got in the priest's way when they were processing around the font (very small church). Uncle got chewed out publicly - this after the deacon or an adult acolyte told the fellow to get out of the way at least once before.
post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
Uncle got chewed out publicly - this after the deacon or an adult acolyte told the fellow to get out of the way at least once before.
I think it is sad this was handled so poorly Granted the guy should have been more cautious but I just think it is never appropriate to humiliate someone publiclly. "get out of the way" is kinda vague. Especially in a day and age where people take 100s of pictures at every little event i think it really the responsibility of the church to say "you may do this and this and this from here and here and nothing else. Before my childrens baptism I had someone more or less draw an imaginary outline on the floor for my photographer. She was not Orthodox so didn't really know where to be and where not to be.



I know a lot of churches say no flash photography. I always turn my flash off when I take pictures at church, it just seems obnoxious not to. I mean flash is annoying. And it makes sense to say you need to stay in one place. What is happening is not a photo op. it is a sacrement. or at the very least a holy happening.
post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
I think it is sad this was handled so poorly Granted the guy should have been more cautious but I just think it is never appropriate to humiliate someone publiclly. "get out of the way" is kinda vague. Especially in a day and age where people take 100s of pictures at every little event i think it really the responsibility of the church to say "you may do this and this and this from here and here and nothing else. Before my childrens baptism I had someone more or less draw an imaginary outline on the floor for my photographer. She was not Orthodox so didn't really know where to be and where not to be.
Well, the guy (who is Orthodox, btw) had been warned by his brother (father of kid being baptized) to stay out of the priest's way. Small church. Guy kept stepping out of the pew to take pictures and was walking right in front of priest, acolytes and deacon or inserting himself between them while they were at the font. Another relative kept pulling the guy's arm to keep him back, but that didn't work. I was later told this same guy was obnoxious with his camera at the brother's *older* kid's baptism and also kept getting in the way. So, not like he'd not been warned. Priest was not known for being tactful, but I can sympathize with his frustration with this guy who kept interfering with the baptism. Others were taking pictures, so it wasn't like he was the only photographer.
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Quote:
ETA: We do get a bit grumbly about the "twice-a-lifers" who show up in a white dress as a baby to be baptised and then some years later in a pine box. And, gasp, even worse the twice-a-year Christians who sit in 'our' pews for Christmas and Easter, but that's not really where are hearts are. We welcome folks who are there to see us as a curiosity....who knows when a message about social justice or compassion might not just take root?

Why would you be grumbly about this?
That's why I followed up with saying that that's not really where are hearts are. It's very easy to get frustrated to show up at church for a high holy day only to find that you don't have somewhere to sit because the church is packed. After all, we're there every week, we serve on committees and the Vestry and volunteer in countless ways. We tithe to pay for the ministers' pay, the beautiful flowers, the million-dollar organ, yadda, yadda, yadda. Yup, I have an occasional moment of thinking 'I PAID for that pew in time, talent and treasure....what's that inappropriately-dressed floozy who can't navigate the BCP doing in it????' That's our non-Christian but wholly-human side showing. We get over it, and we do provide a warm welcome for those throngs (and we love to have them there), but I was just pointing out the small irritations we succumb to. It might explain to someone who isn't a 'regular' what's going on if they get a less-than-gracious reception from some parishioner who's not able to view the bigger picture and act with Christlike charity.

We're pretty careful to post signs at entrances about photography, etc, too. As I said, we get heavy tourist traffic, and we occasionally get some guy who wnders through the church DURING A SERVICE to snap a shot of the 'George Washington' pew. I guess it's not obvious to everyone that this might be disruptive, so we try to make it clear and then forgive any gaffes.

About communion. We're one of a very few churches that do welcome ANYONE, Christian or not, to take communion. We announce that every week before the liturgy of communion and explain how it's done at our church. I've been in other Protestant churches that welcomed any baptised Christian, but the only Catholic church I've ever been in that welcomed non-catholics to partake were Jesuit churches.

I actually think that you're better off saying the prayers if you are able, both at services and in private homes. Obviously if this conflicts with your beliefs in a way that makes you really uncomfortable, don't do it, but if you ARE able to do so, participating contributes to the communal nature of the ritual. I'd never be offended by someone saying the words but not privately 'worshiping' in the way that I do when I say them......the part of the prayer that is important to me is the communication between my heart and God, and I'd never presume to ask or wonder about another person's feelings about that.

My DH does not believe in God, but he comes to church and participates fully in the service as a family-building activity. In his mind, the goal is offering our children an oppurtunity to build faith if they so choose and to support his wife in her faith-journey. He also gets a lot out of the social life we have there. I don't feel that he's in any way 'dishonouring' our service or the communion becuase he doesn't believe in the doctrine of our church or the literalness of what's being said...intent is something that's strictly private and not, in my opinion, enforcable.
post #30 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
Your comment above and MammaG's comment about Episcopalians having open communion for all Christians brings something else to mind. If one belongs to a church (either congregation or denomination) that practices open communion, for example, that doesn't mean that one is going to be allowed to receive communion in another Christian body. Unfortunately, I witnessed one or two ugly, loud scenes in an Orthodox Church when someone who was *not* Orthodox demanded to be given Communion. Of course, the priest refused - we don't practice open communion, and many priests won't commune you if you are unknown to them or if you're a visitor and haven't contacted him several days before. Communion is a very serious matter with the Orthodox. It's the priest responsibility to guard the chalice - and he will answer for improperly guarding it.
This is very true. I guess there are exceptions. But in this case, when not everyone is welcome to take communion, isn't there usually something in the bulletin or mentioned during the service to indicate who is welcome?

Oh, someone above mentioned the "How to be a Perfect Stranger" book, I second that that might be helpful, although it does not include everything you might run into, obviously.
post #31 of 31
At Catholic weddings, I play "spot the unbeliever" b/c I am the only one not kneeling all the time. I just sit there. At dinner, I just sit there while they pray. I don't look down or fold my hands or whatever. One b/c I don't want to, and two b/c I figure it is disrespectful to pretend and play along with something they take seriously.
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