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Just got into a fight with the school nurse..new update post 107,I WON! - Page 2

post #21 of 131
Thread Starter 
I am going to ask for everything in writing.I'm going to stop by the nurse's office when I pick up dd tomorrow.I did speak to a lawyer today.There wasn't much he can do at this point,not until it hits the next level.I'm going to fight this to the end.I've been trying to get a hold of the principal,but no luck as of yet.Then I'll go to the superintendent.This is such a mess.I still have to see my ds's school nurse for his exemption.Hopefully everything goes right there.
post #22 of 131
Good luck...
post #23 of 131
Thread Starter 
Well,my ds;s exemption was approved immediatly today. I'm still fighting with the middle school nurse for dd's,but I did speak with the principal's assistant today,and she is going to speak with him to see what is going on with this.I did tell her I need everything in writing,either a denial or my copy of the exemption form.There is no school Monday or Tuesday,but I'm meeting with the nurse on Wednesday,wish me luck!
post #24 of 131
Cross-posted in the tribal area.

OK, so I just asked my DH (who is not a lawyer, but a second year law student) and this is what he suggested:

You should send a letter to the principal, certified mail, detailing your communications with the nurse and what the nurse told you was required. And then, referencing the state statute, explain that you have fulfilled the requirement of the law and that based on the statute, you do not have to do what the nurse is asking you to do, and in fact it is unlawful for her to have requested it.

I hope this helps you!

Good luck mama .
post #25 of 131
Quote:
Thanks everyone.I just talked to the health department,and according to them they can do this. I'm sure she is wrong though.She also said there is no law on vaccines in RI.
EVERY state has a school immunization law. Send her a copy of this:

Rhode Island Department of Health - Exemptions are page 10-11.

Quote:
Submit a certificate signed by the pupil, if over eighteen (18) years of age, or by the parent or guardian stating that immunization and/or testing for communicable diseases is contrary to that person's religious beliefs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your religious beliefs can change, so you can exempt a previously vaxed child. You could also pretend your child is not vaxed to make life easier.


Some states, like NY(contact Gary Krasner for help -- On the NYS form they request that your letter:

-explains why are you are requesting the exemption
-describes the religious principles that guide your objection to vaxes
-indicates whether you are opposed to all vaxes, and if not, why you are opposed to some vaxes but not others

As long as your letter covered those 3 points then they shouldn't ask for any "supporting evidence".)


and NJ allow the state to question the sincerity of your beliefs; the following is VERY important.



-For a religious exemption you need to be "against the practice of vaccination". If you give your reasons to be against vaccinations as:

"I'm against vaccination because they use aborted fetal cells" - This is a philosophical reason.

"I'm against pre-marital sex and some vaxes are for sexually transmitted diseases." This is a philosophical reason.

Again, you have to be against the the practice of vaccination. For a more through explanation of why this is read the Wexler decision below.

-Also, you DO NOT have to be a member of a religion doctrinally opposed to vaccination. You can be Wiccan, Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish, church of the flip flops, and still claim a religious exemption do to your personal religious beliefs against the practice of vaccination. Dr. Mercola does a good job of explaining this in my Religious Exemptions link below (you may have to register to read it).

-One more thing, you do not want to include specific biblical verses as your interpretation could be challenged. You need to describe your personal religious beliefs.



-Require that all questions regarding your exemption be in writing and give answers in writing. Do not give verbal responses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Religious Exemptions

The Wexler Decision

To find out what exemptions are offered by your state (for school and such) check here:
http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/sta...uirements.aspx

http://www.novaccine.com/law-exemptions/



All states except West Virginia and Mississippi offer religious and/or philosophical exemptions, and the supreme court ruled that you do not have to belong to a non-vaxing religion or have clergy sign your religious exemption. Exemptions can be submitted in lieu of vaccination records (I would do it this way).



Quote:
State mandatory vaccination laws have their roots in the 1905 U.S. Supreme Court decision, Jacobsen v Massachusetts. A Swedish Lutheran pastor, Reverend Henning Jacobsen and his son objected to a law requiring revaccination with smallpox vaccine because they had suffered severe reactions to the first vaccination. The nine Supreme Court justices at the turn of the century denied Jacobsen and his lawyers the right to present scientific evidence for harm caused by the smallpox vaccine, preferring to believe the lawyers representing public health officials who convinced them that doctors could predict ahead of time who would be injured by vaccination.
100wds.



A US Federal Court ruling (binding on NY only) that determined that you do not have to belong to a particular religion to use a religious exemption is:
Sherr v. Northport-East Northport Union Free Sch. Dist., 672 F. Supp. 81, 89-90 (E.D. N.Y. 1987)
http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/consent.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/...es_chptr13.htm


Sample Religious Exemption Letter(change the state law reference):

Quote:
To whom it may concern;



(We / I) {First and Last name(s)}, as the {(parent (s) / guardian(s)} of ______________________(name of newborn child) are exercising (our/my) rights under the US Constitution, PUBLIC HEALTH LAW, ARTICLE 21. CONTROL OF ACUTE COMMUNICABLE DISEASES,TITLE VI. POLIOMYELITIS AND OTHER DISEASES, NY CLS Pub Health § 2164 (2002), to receive Religious Exemption from Vaccination, ALL injections, prophylaxis, & testing due to our genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required.

The U.S. Supreme Court held in Frazee V. Illinois Dept. of Security, 489 U.S. 829, that a religious belief is subject to protection even though no religious group espouses such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the individual professes to belong may not advocate or require such belief. This ruling is also reflected in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as amended Nov. 1, 1980; Part 1605.1-Guidelines on Discrimination Because of Religion.



Sincerely,

Your signature.
Date
post #26 of 131
Wow! Here in FL you go to the health clinic and ask for a religious exemption form. They are not allowed by law to ask anyone what their religious beliefs are. Super easy...in and out.
post #27 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilypie32 View Post
Wow! Here in FL you go to the health clinic and ask for a religious exemption form. They are not allowed by law to ask anyone what their religious beliefs are. Super easy...in and out.
Funny, I hear the most complaints from Floridians, next to New Yorkers.
post #28 of 131
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone,Emmeline II that is quite a lot to read,thank you.I did talk to the principal and the deputy superintendent.Neither believes this is a religious exemption,since I will not tell them my religion.They are saying my dd is a danger to the other students,and that no one should be able to walk in off the street and claim a religious exemption.I also spoke with a lawyer from the Dept of Education,and while he feels I should only have to do what the law requires,he knows I will have to prove my religion in court.I am not a member of a specific religion!I know I don't need to be.I am so very upset right now,I cannot stop shaking.What can I do??I'm so lost right now.I have to appeal this on Monday and I am terrified they are going to rule against me.Why does my city think it is above the law??They all have said the dept of health supports stricter rules,so it's good woonsocket is doing this:.I feel like I just moved to NYC with how difficult this has become. Homeschooling is not an option right now,as I cannot afford it in any way.What do I do??I have severe anxiety and am terrrified of this.I'm trying to get things in writing but no one will give me anything!I want to fight this to the end,but I am so scared.How do I prove my religious beliefs when I'm not even sure what they are.I can't just think vaccines are dangerous.I know I will never allow another vaccine to be given to my dc.Their bodies are perfect the way they are.The lawyer did say he doesn't think there has ever been a case like this in RI.I am so upset,sorry if this post is hard to understand.I wish we had a philosophical exemption.WTF do I do??
post #29 of 131
In the 1980's, Dr. Mendelsohn took the stand in Munsey, NY as a medical expert for an Orthodox rabbi who refused to vaccinate his 11th child. A member of the family died from a long illness and the family decided to live a more natural life. The rabbi became a Universal Life minister, and three of his fellow rabbis took the stand to say that a rabbi becoming a Universal Life minister and not vaccinating their child was not against their religious beliefs.

The rabbi won.

I think you are being given a hard time and being made an example of. There are plenty of lawyers, one in NC, and others through NVIC who can help.

And perhaps, get your state representative to introduce legislation to change the law so that philosophical exemptions can be had.

http://www.nvic.org/lawfirmdirectory.aspx

Under "tell your story", you can report this incident to warn others.

Maybe you start your own home school program. Who knows?
post #30 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by muldey View Post
Thanks everyone,Emmeline II that is quite a lot to read,thank you.I did talk to the principal and the deputy superintendent.Neither believes this is a religious exemption,since I will not tell them my religion.They are saying my dd is a danger to the other students,and that no one should be able to walk in off the street and claim a religious exemption.I also spoke with a lawyer from the Dept of Education,and while he feels I should only have to do what the law requires,he knows I will have to prove my religion in court.I am not a member of a specific religion!I know I don't need to be.I am so very upset right now,I cannot stop shaking.What can I do??I'm so lost right now.I have to appeal this on Monday and I am terrified they are going to rule against me.Why does my city think it is above the law??They all have said the dept of health supports stricter rules,so it's good woonsocket is doing this:.I feel like I just moved to NYC with how difficult this has become. Homeschooling is not an option right now,as I cannot afford it in any way.What do I do??I have severe anxiety and am terrrified of this.I'm trying to get things in writing but no one will give me anything!I want to fight this to the end,but I am so scared.How do I prove my religious beliefs when I'm not even sure what they are.I can't just think vaccines are dangerous.I know I will never allow another vaccine to be given to my dc.Their bodies are perfect the way they are.The lawyer did say he doesn't think there has ever been a case like this in RI.I am so upset,sorry if this post is hard to understand.I wish we had a philosophical exemption.WTF do I do??

I feel so bad for you, you are in a very hard situation. I would hate to have to justify my religious beliefs in front of a judge. Hopefully you can get this resolved before it gets that far. I keep wondering what they are trying to prove? I am surprised with all the different religions that they would try to challenge a persons beliefs. I mean anyone can start a religion right? You could have your own religion or 'church', i went to a college with a girl whose dad decided he didn't like the way his church was headed and started holding services at home with his family. There are some religions i'm sure that don't require church attendence. I have a feeling things may be harder with exemptions with the h1n1 scare and schools wanting to turn into distribution stations for the vaccines...I hope everything works out for you and your family.
post #31 of 131
You need to contact the vaccine attorney, Alan Phillips. He will even do consultations over the phone. He also has a website:

http://www.vaccinerights.com/

http://www.alanphillipslaw.com/

http://www.alanphillipslaw.com/pract...ine_Exemptions
post #32 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post



And perhaps, get your state representative to introduce legislation to change the law so that philosophical exemptions can be had. If NY and Ma can have a philosophical exemption, so can you.
huh? when did NY get a philosophical exemption??
post #33 of 131
I also don't think Ma has a philosophical exemption either.

Pollyanna
post #34 of 131
I feel so bad for you ; but try to chillax and drag this out as long as possible.

I would have just said "Christian" and left it at that; or Wiccan and just shocked them into submission. Even if you said "Lutheran" (a protestant denomination), each individual is entitled to their own beliefs inside a religion. I would read the Wexler case carefully...

I would also contact that lawyer recommended above, and keep the law on hand and (if you haven't received better advice) only respond by reading the law each time you are questioned on the vaccination; or read this:

The U.S. Supreme Court held in Frazee V. Illinois Dept. of Security, 489 U.S. 829, that a religious belief is subject to protection even though no religious group espouses such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the individual professes to belong may not advocate or require such belief. This ruling is also reflected in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as amended Nov. 1, 1980; Part 1605.1-Guidelines on Discrimination Because of Religion.


For your "appeal" I would consider turning in a new exemption; I altered it to reflect the RI health code above and I might refuse to answer any questions not in writing and having been reviewed by your "attorney" (stall, stall, stall...) because what you say to the super or the school board WILL be used against you if it goes to court (I have in mind a mom of a chronically ill child whose school board went after her for her child having "unauthorized" absences):

Quote:
To whom it may concern;



(We / I) {First and Last name(s)}, as the {(parent (s) / guardian(s)} of ______________________(name child) are exercising (our/my) rights under the US Constitution, and RULES AND REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO IMMUNIZATION AND TESTING FOR COMMUNICABLE DISEASES, STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, January 1995, School Entry Requirements, 3.5.3 Exemptions; to receive Religious Exemption from Vaccination, ALL injections, prophylaxis, & testing due to our genuine and sincere religious beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required.

The U.S. Supreme Court held in Frazee V. Illinois Dept. of Security, 489 U.S. 829, that a religious belief is subject to protection even though no religious group espouses such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the individual professes to belong may not advocate or require such belief. This ruling is also reflected in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 as amended Nov. 1, 1980; Part 1605.1-Guidelines on Discrimination Because of Religion.



Sincerely,

Your signature.
Date


You can also review this, BUT be aware that the opposition reads these sites as well. You want to check with Legal Aid; perhaps you can get them to write an "your actions are in violation of the law" letter.
Know Vaccines
post #35 of 131
in all honesty for the safety of my family and my rights and my health i would consider the possibility of moving elsewhere... if not now.. in the near future... I wish you the best of luck.. and i hope you can fix this with a lawyer but given the climate in that school your child may suffer some bias because of his vax status.. the nurse, teachers, principal... i would not be comfortable with my child in there 5/wk 9 mo a yr in the same rooms with 30+kids 1 adult yadda yadda... ugh public school sounds like a jail and the students are the inmates.. it's a bit strange how our children are becoming pharmaceutical subjects... it's astounding to me that medically they are being manipulated to such a degree, it's almost abusive.
It's never easy i guess... i wish you the best... hang in there
post #36 of 131
This sounds absolutely horrible. I would stop all oral correspondence with the school, and put everything in writing. Send it certified mail. Your lawyer should be able to advise you how to handle this. You are within your rights. The superintendent and principal, or whomever, may be very hostile to parents who do not vax, but that does not make them above the law. But they will push you around and use your words against you, so be extremely careful what you say and write.

You have complied with the law. Tell them so, in writing, and send your child to school.

Do not, under any circumstances, allow this to end in a court battle. If it were to come to that, and the school department decides to make an example of you, MOVE. Or find a private school (like a Waldorf school or a Montessori school that is more flexible). Keep your head down, follow the law, and keep repeating (in writing) that you have followed the law.

Do not get into any argument about the health and safety of the other children, or the practice of vaccination or your religious beliefs. These things are none of their business. You can't take back what you've already said, but you can, henceforth, keep your mouth shut. Written word only.
post #37 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveless View Post

You have complied with the law. Tell them so, in writing, and send your child to school.
Good point.

I've said this before, but forgot to say it on this thread .


"I, Jane Doe, as the parent of Janet Doe, have submitted a religious exemption in compliance with TITLE 16. EDUCATION,
CHAPTER 38. OFFENSES PERTAINING TO SCHOOLS, R.I. Gen. Laws § 16-38-2 (2006), § 16-38-2. Immunization."
post #38 of 131
Rhode Island Summary of Immunization Requirements & Guidelines for Granting Exemptions

Did you submit the form on page 8? There is not even a space for any questions on their part. If you submitted a letter instead of the official form, you may want to submit the form.

Quote:
Religious Exemptions
1. Schedule an immunization/vaccine-preventable disease educational intervention session with parent/guardian or student if 18
years of age or older. Include a review of the educational materials included in this packet.
Educational materials include:
• A CDC Vaccine Information Statement (VIS)-(Sample included) for each of the required vaccinations for which the
student is exempt. VIS are available in multiple languages at www.immunize.org/vis/, or by contacting the Family
Health Information Line at (800) 942-7434.
• Facts for Parents to Consider with Unprotected Children
• Parents/students requesting additional information can be referred to or given a copy of Reliable Sources of
Immunization Information
2. After reading the educational materials, have parent initial and sign Section 2 of the Religious Immunization Exemption
Certificate (Appendix 2).

3. The administrative head and school nurse should sign and date Section 3 of the Religious Immunization Exemption
Certificate, and distribute copies as designated on the bottom of the certificate.
post #39 of 131
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone.I only have a minute so sorry if I don't respond to everyone yet.I did fill out the RI religious exemption certificate,but they are still insisting it is not enough. I also spoke to Alan Philips yesterday.He could write a letter for me,stating the federal laws and such,but I don't know what good it would do plus I don't have the money.He's willing to cut his fees in half for me,but even that is way too expensive.I'm still waiting for a call back from the attorney with the RI dept of ed,he agrees with me so we'll see how that goes.He's supposed to be talking to the city attorney about this for me.We're trying to keep it from going to a hearing before the dept of ed,but I think it'll go that far.

No chance of me moving.I just cannot afford it in any way.Plus I really don't want to let this go.I want them to know I won't back down.I didn't back down on my ds's education(he has autism with an IEP),even calling in mediation to one of the IEP meetings.So the Woonsocket dept of ed really does not like me .I don't want any other parents to go through this.
post #40 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by muldey View Post
I'm still waiting for a call back from the attorney with the RI dept of ed,he agrees with me so we'll see how that goes.He's supposed to be talking to the city attorney about this for me.We're trying to keep it from going to a hearing before the dept of ed,but I think it'll go that far.

No chance of me moving.I just cannot afford it in any way.
Have you tried Legal Aid?

I guess I would just repeat "I am in compliance with the Department of Health Exemption Guidelines; I would be happy to e-mail you a copy." I would keep a copy on hand as well.

Also, sometimes it works to go over their heads. Here is a link to the RI Education Commissioner. Perhaps bring up that the Woonsocket Department of Education is disregarding the State Health Department Exemption Guidelines and you believe this is possibly due to past issues over the education of your "special needs" child. You might also toss in that you feel they are trying to take advantage of your position as a low-income parent (single?).

Gary Krasner is not a lawyer, but he is a New Yorker who helps people with the exemption process there. He likely has information that would be applicable to you.

You could try posting in your tribe; perhaps there is someone there who had dealt with this type of thing before.
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