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Niqab

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
The topic of facial covering has come up in the Covered Girls thread, and on several threads discussing Islam and feminism and the like.

If you do cover, have covered, will cover with niqab, would you mind sharing a little about your experience? Why you do or don't?

I haven't had much experience with it, but the few times I've seen it in person I will admit to a strong response. When I was younger, before I started dressing modestly and covering my hair, I had a very standard American reaction (she's oppressed/repressed/etc). Recently saw a woman fully covered and my first thought was "she's probably a total feminist," which was (sadly) followed by a judgement on whom I presume was her husband, dressed like a regular old American guy in a polo and jeans with sandals.

Anyway, I'm very curious. It's not something I'm drawn toward in my own life, but I'd love to understand a little more about it.

Thanks for sharing
post #2 of 43
:
post #3 of 43
I did because it's an established religious tradition which carries merit and because I enjoy the privacy, and I don't presently because when I moved back to the U.S. I was not interested in being a spectacle, because I have concerns for my kids growing up with "the weird, scary mom," and because women who waffle on the subject tend to be frowned upon.

I'm sorry, I'm not really sure what you're asking more than that.
post #4 of 43
Thread Starter 
If you were visiting Egypt would you wear it again (or any other country where it was more socially acceptable)?

Have you worn it here? And were you made to feel like a spectacle for doing so? Do you think the "spectacular" mentality extends to abayas and, er... I can't remember the name of the other outer garment... ?


ETA: I traveled alone with an American girlfriend through Egypt and Jordan in 2001. Talk about being a spectacle! We endeavored to dress modestly in long skirts and button up shirts but we failed in not drawing unwanted attention to ourselves. The most amazing and uncomfortable trip I've ever taken.
post #5 of 43
I've worn hijab for 8 or so years now. I do not wear niqab. I dress modestly, but tend to wear more American/Western clothes than Middle Eastern styles.

I wear hijab, but I don't necessarily believe it is required in my religion. For me, it's about modesty and publicly identifying myself (for good and bad) as a Muslim. I don't wear niqab because I don't think it's required or even recommended in my religion. Islam is supposed to be the Middle Way.

I know a few women who do wear niqab. For those whom I'm friends with, it's not an issue. I recognize them (even in niqab)... and we chat/whatever. But when I encounter women I don't know in niqab, I do find myself a bit more shy around them. It is off-putting. It is barrier... but then again, I think it's intended to be.

I think it would be absolute hell to wear niqab in the States. I get enough grief for my hijab. I can't imagine how the niqabis are treated. Among the people I know in Egypt who wear it, many tend to be Salafis (Very conservative Muslims who tend to want to follow the practices of 7th century Islam.)

On a side note, in Egypt there can be a backlash about appearing "too" religious...men with beards.... women with niqabs..... men who go to the mosque to pray the morning prayers...etc. Can make you a person of interest of the gov't.
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faliciagayle View Post
If you were visiting Egypt would you wear it again (or any other country where it was more socially acceptable)?

Have you worn it here? And were you made to feel like a spectacle for doing so? Do you think the "spectacular" mentality extends to abayas and, er... I can't remember the name of the other outer garment... ?


ETA: I traveled alone with an American girlfriend through Egypt and Jordan in 2001. Talk about being a spectacle! We endeavored to dress modestly in long skirts and button up shirts but we failed in not drawing unwanted attention to ourselves. The most amazing and uncomfortable trip I've ever taken.
When I return to Egypt, yeah, I'll wear it ... for starters, that's how people there know me. Unless one believes it's religiously obligatory -- and some do, but I've never really seen a good argument for it -- there's religiously no problem with switching back and forth between wearing and not wearing niqab, but socially can be another matter. People understand a woman having a difference in whether or not she wears it in different countries a lot better than they understand her having periodic changes of heart on the matter entirely. But also, too, a lot of my reasons for changing modes of dress between countries have to do with support structure. Niqab is a contentious issue in Egypt too, but contentious as in there are strong feelings on all sides, not just against, and those against are mostly people alien to me there -- the wealthier class, the nominally religious, certain public officials and institutions which are largely irrelevant to me. In my own circle, and especially as an American, it brings me a great deal of respect, and being respected for doing something I like to do is obviously a far different experience from being alienated or looked down upon for it.

I've never worn it here, although if I had remained living in Philadelphia I might have ... in the Muslim community there there is again a lot of support for the practice. Although one of my dear friends here in Jersey wears niqab and has no problem ... but, again, she is a very social person, very active in the religious community, and therefore has a lot of accepting people to turn to. Although, ironically, it's in our religious community that she gets the most flack as well -- some people have a reaction against non-Arab Muslims "trying to play Arab dress-up."

I will wear black abayas here, which I do think has a little of the same spectacle aspect, although obviously not nearly so much. Since we were just talking hot weather wear, a well made black abaya is about the coolest thing a person can wear provided she's not going to be standing straight out in the sun for long. I do keep away from certain styles though -- and the coolest ones at that -- for mostly the same reasons. As someone who intensely likes privacy, I do have a pretty low threshold for being looked at funny. (I just bought some beads to adorn my most comfy abaya, though, so it will probably be seeing a lot more wear since I'm psyched about the purty. )
post #7 of 43
I have worn niqab for about three years and am happy to share any experiences in general. I believe Islam is clear in its requirement for men and women to cover modestly. This is a big topic, lol, but let me just give a synopsis of the reasons why Muslim women may wear niqab. Some choose to simply because they enjoy the modesty it brings and the preservation of self they feel it gives them. The face being the most memorable part of a person, visually, and also a large part of what makes someone seemingly attractive or beautiful to someone else, the face. So some women choose to cover their beauty preserving it for only those they choose, their family, close female friends, etc.

Other women wear niqab because they believe it is either required by Islam, or recommended by it. This is because of the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sunnah:

Quote:
Qur'an - Al-Ahzab 33:59
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks all over their bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
When this verse was revealed the believing women immediately covered themselves. They looked different from the way they previously dressed and from the non-practicing women. Just as hijab and niqab continue to do today.

Quote:
Hadith - Bukhari 6:282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:`Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces." Hadith - Abu Dawud, Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin
When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.
Quote:
Hadith: Abu Dawood 4102:

May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”, they tore the thickest of their garments and covered their faces with them.
In Islam, the Qur'an is the revelation to the believers, our scripture. "Hadith" is the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed (saws). And the "Sunnah" is the actions of him and the sahabah, or the believing people that lived during the time of the Qur'an being revealed. They were the first generation of Muslims and Muhammed called them "the best of Believers". So many Muslims desire to emulate their example. Hadith and sunnah act to demonstrate how the Qur'an was applied, lived, carried out, etc in every day living.

Shariah, Islamic law, comes from the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunnah, and guides how to live from daily living of using the bathroom, dressing, cleaning dishes, to prayer, eating, caring for babies, caring for the deceased etc. Similar to how Jewish Law dictates the law in these even these seemingly very small aspects of life, but bringing purpose and meaning to even the small acts of worship in each moment of life.

In Shariah law, the Hadith and Sunnah are just as vital as the Qur'an.

Quote:
Muhammed said: I have left among you two things you will never go astray as long as you hold fast to them: the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.

We sent a Messenger to you from among you to recite Our signs to you and purify you and teach you the Book and Wisdom and teach you things you did not know before. Qur'an 2:151

Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah. If anyone turns away, We did not send you [Muhammad] to them as their keeper. Qur'an 4:80

You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah for all who put their hope in Allah and the Last Day and remember Allah much. Qur'an 33:21
The sunnah and hadith is the interpretation, explanation of, and commentary on the Qur'an. A Muslim rejecting it is called misguidance and disobedience, or in other words, disbelief of Islam because the Qur'an says:

Quote:
When Allah and His Messenger have decided something, it is not for any man or woman of the believers to have a choice about it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger is clearly misguided. Qur'an 33:36

Whatever the Messenger gives you, you should accept, and whatever he forbids you, you should forgo. Have fear [and respect] of Allah — Allah is severe in retribution. Qur'an 59:7

The reply of the believers when they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger so that he can judge between them is to say, "We hear and we obey." Qur'an 24:51
There are many, many Hadith about how the Muslim women who were there in the time of the revelation of the Qur'an covered up in response. The men also were commanded to lower their gaze and guard themselves. And today, even the stereotypical image of a Muslim man is that of a man in a long robe from neck to wrist and down to the ankles, a cloth on his head, and his face covered with a beard...covered up just as much as his wife.

Of course there are 1 billion Muslims and there is a difference between Islam and Muslims. Islam is the religion, Muslims the people, and you'll see them living, dressing, and acting in a billion ways. Some take laws very seriously and apply them to each part of daily living. Some take them just as theoretical, historical, or even inapplicable. Some, especially those in regions of high illiteracy, have no idea what the very vital written law of their religion says, and thus practice whatever they see, hear, or are taught ending up in gross deformations.

Because of the dahleel (citations from Qur'an, Hadith, or Sunnah) above, many Muslim women in the world choose to wear niqab, and most to wear hijab. In the West, wearing niqab is difficult because it is not an accepted norm and thus can make one a target for harassment, misunderstanding, or worse. Some still choose to wear it because what they feel their religion states is more important than being off-putting, attracting attention, or making them seem allianced with extremists to some onlookers. Their concern is not for the opinions of people they don't know, but that of their faith and convictions. Yes, it is hard to be a niqabi. But "I think it would be absolute hell to wear niqab in the States" couldn't be further from the truth. In the West, though, even if a woman wants to wear niqab, or feels a religious need to, she might not because the attention it draws may feel more immodest than not wearing it at all.

I feel it's more absolute hell heat analogy for the people that expose their skin to the sun where it literally cooks and burns. People that live in regions of heat and sun cover up to keep cool. I think people that do cover, men and women, are used to it, adapted. I don't sweat or feel over-heated unless it is over 95*F, humid, and I'm out in the sun. But then I think everyone is feeling a bit steamy.

Just FYI, Muslim women no longer are required to cover when they become past menopause...

Quote:
And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their outer clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their clothing) is better for them. And Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower. Qur'an 24:60
I'd be happy to share personal stories and experience by PM. I just wanted to share the dahleel (citations) and reasons in general why some women choose to. But it's a hot topic for some women, especially in the West, and I don't want to become a punching bag for my own choices and life experiences.
post #8 of 43
More hadith on covering, for anyone interested.

Quote:
al-Bukhaari, 365; Muslim, 645. It was narrated from ‘Urwah that ‘Aa’ishah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to pray Fajr and the believing women would attend (the prayer) with him, wrapped in their aprons, then they would go back to their houses and no one would recognize them.

Abu Dawood, 1833; Ibn Maajah, 2935 It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (S) in ihraam, and when they drew near to us we would lower our jilbabs from our heads over our faces, then when they had passed we would uncover them again.

Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/203; al-Haakim, 1/624 It was narrated that Asma’ bint Abi Bakr said: We used to cover our faces in front of men. (classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Jilbaab al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah.)

al-Bayhaqi, 7/93 It was narrated that ‘Aasim al-Ahwaal said: We used to enter upon Hafsah bint Sireen who had put her jilbab thus and covered her face with it, and we would say to her: May Allaah have mercy on you. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment” [al-Noor 24:60]. And she would say to us: What comes after that? We would say: “But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them”. And she would say: That is confirming the idea of hijab.
post #9 of 43
Thread Starter 
DahlalLotus, thank you for giving such clear explanation for the practice :

I will PM you
post #10 of 43
Look forward to chatting. Great discussion, everyone!

Faliciagayle, I saw you're expecting maybe early Feb? Me too!
post #11 of 43
Oops! I just saw you're expecting late 09-early '10! Congratulations!
post #12 of 43
I love the niqab, and I dream of once wearing it again... InshaAllah, God willing...
post #13 of 43
Thread Starter 
DahlalLotus - Thank you : and congratulations to you as well

Nabbe - what is preventing you from wearing it now?

Umsami - can you tell me a little more why you think hijab/niqab are not required/recommended by Islam? Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Islam, but I have never heard it described as "the middle way."
post #14 of 43
FeliciaGayle... I'll try and post more on hijab later... but in the meantime, here is some info on niqab. It is the extreme minority of Muslim Scholars who believe it is required. If you look at the ahadith that DahlalLotus quoted... there are some major translation issues as well.

Easiest way to answer your question would be to send you to a few articles:

http://www.muhajabah.com/moreniqab.htm

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/wo...t_required.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/niqab_no.htm

The often told argument regarding niqab not being required is a hadith (story) from the time of the Prophet.
Quote:
From the narrations of Al-Bukhari when a youthful, attractive female asked the Prophet (SAAWS) a question on Hajj, she was uncovering her face. Al-Fadhil ibn Abbas, his (SAAWS) cousin started looking at her but the Prophet (SAAWS) was turning his head from that gaze. Had uncovering the face been haram, the Prophet (SAAWS) would have told her that she should wear a niqab, but he didn't do that.

Also, many scholars say that a woman may not wear niqab making hajj (pilgrammage). If she cannot wear it during one of the most holy acts in Islam, how could it be required otherwise?

Here's a blurb on the Middle Way http://discover.islamway.com/article...e_id=45&lang=1 In the Qur'an, when describing some of the things that are required in Islam... such as fasting... or making ablutions before prayer.... God often gives an alternative... such as not fasting for those who are traveling or sick... or making ablution with dirt if there is no clean water... and then it is said that God desires Islam to be easy for you.

In general, I think that many many people try and make Islam harder than God intended. It's fine for women to cover their face. It's not an issue for me. But it's not required either... regardless of what one may see in Saudi.
post #15 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faliciagayle View Post
DahlalLotus - Thank you : and congratulations to you as well

Nabbe - what is preventing you from wearing it now?

Umsami - can you tell me a little more why you think hijab/niqab are not required/recommended by Islam? Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Islam, but I have never heard it described as "the middle way."
I dont know really... It is just so hard here in Norway. I feel so excluded, both from the non-muslim society, and muslim society. Muslims generally here, are not too found of it either... Sadly.
post #16 of 43
I would just like to add that in all of the traditional legal lineages of sunni islam the strongest rulings are in favor of the necessity of niqab. Only one (Hanafi) to my knowledge traditionally argued room for even situational application of the requirement (excluding formal prayers and hajj, for which all scholars made necessary exceptions).

That said, I can only speak of two lineages (Shafi'i and Hanafi), but in those in my experience contemporary scholars are more inclined to consider the traditional rulings as being time and place sensitive. What I have encountered mostly in modern rulings are those which say niqab can be obligatory in certain circumstances (where it is normative, where it can be worn without undue hardship, or where it provides an arguable protection against sin), but it is not in all circumstances and therefore it is left up to the sincere discernment of the wearer.

I have also at times encountered rulings which seem to gently discourage the wearing of it in Western or other arguably hostile nations where it is likely to be a serious impediment to the public life of the wearer, but I really don't know how common such rulings are.

But, in short, with regard to sunni islam, the conversation on niqab doesn't come down to "is it good, neutral, or bad," but rather "is it fard (an absolute obligation of muslims), wajib (a necessary act somewhat less important than that which is fard), or sunnah (highly meritorious but not required)." In a broader sense that it might be less than meritorious does not even seriously enter into the equation.

ETA: A lot of the points of view that it is not required in traditional scholarship are based on a misunderstanding of that scholarship. For example, in the IslamicWeb link posted above it implies that all four of the founders of the major sunni legal lineages did not require niqab, but this would not be an accurate implication. Rather those scholars defined awrah, the parts of the body that are by definition not for public view, in one way, and made rulings on niqab based on criteria other than the definition of awrah.
post #17 of 43
I am a Muslim convert and been wearing niqaab about 3 years now. I believe that its strongly recommended because the world is full of "fithna".
I truly feel much better wearing niqaab then i was wearing hijaab because in Egypt i stand out on street because i have very fair skin and blue eyes. Going out with niqaab gives more privacy.
post #18 of 43
i do wear hijab but not niqab. i have close family members that wear it, but they also live like a niqabi... meaning, not going out much unless it's very necessary or it's to someone's house where they can be around only women. and they prefer it this way, because to them, niqab is more of a lifestyle than a piece of cloth. i suppose it is very 7th century but they're very happy that way. btw i know not all niqabis are like this, but the ones i've encountered are.
that's fine for some people, but with my personality and my lifestyle, i choose not to wear the niqab. i would find it stifling and not the "middle way" but i concede that term is subjective.
and i believe i am still preserving my modesty with just a hijab and nonrevealing or tight clothing. and i definitely don't need a scholar to tell me it's ok
post #19 of 43
I've worn niqaab here in America for about two years. Since I became Muslim I have progressively wanted to cover more and more and I got to the point of feeling "exposed" having my face showing. I became very interested in niqaab and started reading about the religious implications of it. I became convinced that this is something highly recommended for all Muslim women and that we would get the reward of doing this good deed from Allah. I like wearing niqaab for seeking reward from Allah. I also feel this is the best choice for me because it prevents anybody from becoming physically attracted to me and also helps keep me away from that. Although not many people in my area wear niqaab, there are some and I am part of a Muslim community who is very supportive and respectful of my decision. Sometimes it does get tiring dealing with the non-Muslims who stare and often call me a ninja. But over all many of the non-Muslims are very kind and go out of their way to be nice and accommodating to me. I really appreciate that since I realize seeing me is probably something very strange to them and many people just have a hard time understanding it. It takes time to get used to interacting while being "anonymous" and to get used to the way people act toward you. As Muslims we are encouraged not to have our hearts attached too much to this world so this feeling of being a stranger in the world can also benefit us spiritually. Like the prophet Muhammad, saaws, said, "be in this world as a stranger" we know this is not our real home and we know that people who really strive hard in their religion are strange in the world among both Muslims and non Muslims.
post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faliciagayle View Post
Recently saw a woman fully covered and my first thought was "she's probably a total feminist," which was (sadly) followed by a judgement on whom I presume was her husband, dressed like a regular old American guy in a polo and jeans with sandals.
I have the same mixed feelings when I see couples like this, and I hear others say they do also. A Muslim couple who both wore similar "cover up" clothing would make sense to me; they practice strict modesty because of their religion, perfectly understandable. What I actually see, most of the time, are women veiled from head to foot, accompanied by husbands dressed like the average local guy, in knee-length shorts, tee shirt and sandals - and showing his face to boot. That always gives me a jolt. It comes across, rightly or wrongly, as a snub to the woman - as saying the man is fine as he is, and can wear whatever is comfortable or whatever other men are wearing, but the woman has to be specially camouflaged and hidden from view.
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