CDC Conference report

[Dave2GA]

I attended the CDC HIV Prevention Conference this week in Atlanta, where I live. The assembled CDC worthies were promoting circumcision on the basis of the African Randomized Controlled Trials ("RCTs"), the conclusions of which were characterized by one presenter as being "beyond a reasonable doubt." Katrina Kretsinger, MD, of the CDC was asked if the RCTs would be repeated in the U.S. She replied that they would not be because it would be unethical to do so! Then how were they ethical to start with? When I attended the session where Deborah Gust of the CDC presented a paper demonstrating that circumcision made no difference in the acquisition of HIV by insertive gay males, I asked why these results did not bring into question the conclusions of the RCTs since the anus supposedly contains more HIV than the vagina. The reply, as I understood it, was that since the insertive males also were sometimes receptive males you could not say how they got HIV. Of course, if that is the case, then the study was worthless. But since it was presented as being worthy (otherwise why present it?), I am of the opinion that it does bring into question the validity of the RCTs, as do the known facts that the U.S. has the highest rate of HIV in the industrialized world (a fact one speaker brought up), the highest STD rate in that same world, and the highest rate of male circumcision in that same world. So much for the great American circumcision experiment!

At one of the last sessions the speaker from "Operation Abraham", a Jerusalem, Israel group that apparently hopes to be engaged to assist the U.S. in circumcising the black and Hispanic males who are not circumcised, put a photo of an intact male up on the screen. The figure of an elephant had been drawn around the penis so that the intact penis looked like an elephant's trunk. The words "Please circumcise me" or something similar had been added to the photo. I remonstrated loudly until this smear was taken down and then promptly left the session. I, as an intact male, am still awaiting a deserved, written, direct apology from Dr. Peter Kilmarx, Chief of the Epidemiology Branch of the Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention of the CDC, who was in attendance and from whom I demanded an apology. I think this shows the mindset of the CDC. They seem to have abandoned all scientific objectivity to promote a useless and mutilating surgery. I expect the men are all circumcised and the women are all married to circumcised men or have circumcised relatives. So the trauma repeats itself and those who have been traumatized fulfill their need to traumatize others. And apparently they think it is socially and ethically acceptable to denigrate a normal body part and to attempt to humiliate all intact boys and men into submitting to circumcision.

Those who are as outraged as I am can write appropriate letters to the CDC. Your taxes support this lunacy. Since the CDC is consulting with the AAP (indeed Operation Abraham's abstract for its presentation mentioned "lobbying" the AAP), a letter to the Circumcision Task Force may be in order. You can get the CDC's and AAP's addresses at their websites. See also www.circumcisionandhiv.com. I hope I am not out of order is suggesting this course of action here in CAC.

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA

....put a photo of an intact male up on the screen. The figure of an elephant had been drawn around the penis so that the intact penis looked like an elephant's trunk. The words "Please circumcise me" or something similar had been added to the photo.

:

That is so disgusting....I hope you get a direct and formal apology, Dave. I would have been just as outraged as you were. Thank you for being a public voice out there, letting them know that this was not something to joke about or take lightly.

I am so disgusted right now.

[Minarai]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA

At one of the last sessions the speaker from "Operation Abraham", a Jerusalem, Israel group that apparently hopes to be engaged to assist the U.S. in circumcising the black and Hispanic males who are not circumcised, put a photo of an intact male up on the screen. The figure of an elephant had been drawn around the penis so that the intact penis looked like an elephant's trunk. The words "Please circumcise me" or something similar had been added to the photo. I remonstrated loudly until this smear was taken down and then promptly left the session. I, as an intact male, am still awaiting a deserved, written, direct apology from Dr. Peter Kilmarx, Chief of the Epidemiology Branch of the Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention of the CDC, who was in attendance and from whom I demanded an apology. I think this shows the mindset of the CDC. They seem to have abandoned all scientific objectivity to promote a useless and mutilating surgery. I expect the men are all circumcised and the women are all married to circumcised men or have circumcised relatives. So the trauma repeats itself and those who have been traumatized fulfill their need to traumatize others. And apparently they think it is socially and ethically acceptable to denigrate a normal body part and to attempt to humiliate all intact boys and men into submitting to circumcision.

They undoubtedly got the idea for that from the manga/anime Crayon Shin-chan (I'm not going to go into details for copyright reasons). It amused me at first, but then it disgusted me.

Those who are as outraged as I am can write appropriate letters to the CDC. Your taxes support this lunacy. Since the CDC is consulting with the AAP (indeed Operation Abraham's abstract for its presentation mentioned "lobbying" the AAP), a letter to the Circumcision Task Force may be in order. You can get the CDC's and AAP's addresses at their websites. See also www.circumcisionandhiv.com. I hope I am not out of order is suggesting this course of action here in CAC.

I doubt letter writing will work. It's my understanding that the United States medical machine has become so powerful that it's immune to any and all criticism and/or reform efforts from anyone below the government level. (Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist.)

[Papai]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA

I attended the CDC HIV Prevention Conference this week in Atlanta, where I live. The assembled CDC worthies were promoting circumcision on the basis of the African Randomized Controlled Trials ("RCTs"), the conclusions of which were characterized by one presenter as being "beyond a reasonable doubt." Katrina Kretsinger, MD, of the CDC was asked if the RCTs would be repeated in the U.S. She replied that they would not be because it would be unethical to do so! Then how were they ethical to start with? When I attended the session where Deborah Gust of the CDC presented a paper demonstrating that circumcision made no difference in the acquisition of HIV by insertive gay males, I asked why these results did not bring into question the conclusions of the RCTs since the anus supposedly contains more HIV than the vagina. The reply, as I understood it, was that since the insertive males also were sometimes receptive males you could not say how they got HIV. Of course, if that is the case, then the study was worthless. But since it was presented as being worthy (otherwise why present it?), I am of the opinion that it does bring into question the validity of the RCTs, as do the known facts that the U.S. has the highest rate of HIV in the industrialized world (a fact one speaker brought up), the highest STD rate in that same world, and the highest rate of male circumcision in that same world. So much for the great American circumcision experiment!

At one of the last sessions the speaker from "Operation Abraham", a Jerusalem, Israel group that apparently hopes to be engaged to assist the U.S. in circumcising the black and Hispanic males who are not circumcised, put a photo of an intact male up on the screen. The figure of an elephant had been drawn around the penis so that the intact penis looked like an elephant's trunk. The words "Please circumcise me" or something similar had been added to the photo. I remonstrated loudly until this smear was taken down and then promptly left the session.

You should write a blog about this and get it featured on the Huffington Post or send it to a newspaper. This behavior should be exposed in the mass media.

Absolutely despicable.

[Papai]

Originally Posted by Minarai

I doubt letter writing will work. It's my understanding that the United States medical machine has become so powerful that it's immune to any and all criticism and/or reform efforts from anyone below the government level. (Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't want to be accused of being a conspiracy theorist.)

I agree that letter writing alone won't force action, but I disagree that only government level criticism will force a response. Already, the CDC is trying to be measured against the wrath of criticism in the NY Times article, by stressing that they are CONSIDERING recommending circ.

The intact argument needs more media time, so the more people who write for blogs, newspapers and talk about it on TV the better.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by Papai

You should write a blog about this and get it featured on the Huffington Post or send it to a newspaper. This behavior should be exposed in the mass media.

Absolutely despicable.

That is clearly inappropriate; I agree perhaps expose this on the Huffington Post or something.

Eta: and if a copy of this slide could ne obtained that would be great. Perhaps we can get some blogs to start the ball rolling.

[Night_Nurse]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA

At one of the last sessions the speaker from "Operation Abraham", a Jerusalem, Israel group that apparently hopes to be engaged to assist the U.S. in circumcising the black and Hispanic males who are not circumcised.

What about my white, Caucasian, blond headed, blue-eyed son? Do they want to cut off his foreskin too, or just those of minorities?

This makes me so angry and I have so much to say, yet I won't, out of fear that I'll get the thread shut down.

I'm about to bow out of this fight anyway. It's too draining and those who agree with circ go to too many ludicrous lengths to justify it. It's too much.

[ursaminor]

Operation Abraham? has anyone ever heard of them before? I would like to contact some minority groups about their plans.
I do not want my son to grow up in a country that is trying to attack its boys. I thought things were getting better

[tennisdude23]

Ok, once you start drawing elephants for your powerpoints, that's about the time when I really stop taking you seriously. If I was at a conference like that, I would have probably laughed and asked the presenter why he is wasting everyone's time. After all, time is money as they say. In any case, it would have been an incident that I would have taken a picture of and leaked to the media and/or spread throughout the internet. I mean where is my tax money going, seriously? I thought this nation is in a massive deficit that's further burdening the economy. If Congress is going to pass a form of universal health care, Medicaid and Medicare programs will have to be cut. I don't think that circumcision will be high on Medicaid's agenda, and I assume it will be cut in a lot of states, depending what happens during the health care debate. It's really not a hard concept to grasp that HIV and circumcision in this country have little to do with each other. Anyway, the more air time a story like this gets, the more likely it is that the CDC won't do anything in favor or against circumcision. I don't think they will want to plunge head first into some kind of culture war and all the bad publicity that it would receive. By the way, the blog rollingdoughnut.com has some great posts about this story. I suggest that everyone checks them out. In the end, I feel that while the AAP may emphasize some of the new "benefits" (which we all know are BS), I think they will be forced to say that those same benefits can be achieved through good hygiene and safe sex practices and that the risks and ethics of the procedure should be taken into account when physicians are discussing this decision with the parents. The AAP has said several times that they won't recommend this procedure and I really doubt that they will do anything that will be seriously out of line with all of the other organizations of the western world. Lastly, given all the great responses this week across the internet, I feel that the message is getting out and that the circumcision rates will continue to fall in this country and hopefully around the world as well. I think if physicians really do a better job of discussing the risks, benefits, and ethics of circumcision, then the rates of will drop, and drop much faster than now. What keeps circumcision going is the lack of national discourse, which I think is the silver lining to this story.

Thank you everyone for speaking out and a special thanks to Mr. Llewellyn, Ms. Chapin, and everyone else at Intact America for all of their great help and support.

[SleeplessMommy]

Dave2GA - thank you so much for being there at the CDC meeting.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

What about my white, Caucasian, blond headed, blue-eyed son? Do they want to cut off his foreskin too, or just those of minorities?

This makes me so angry and I have so much to say, yet I won't, out of fear that I'll get the thread shut down.

I'm about to bow out of this fight anyway. It's too draining and those who agree with circ go to too many ludicrous lengths to justify it. It's too much.

NN It gets the darkest before the dawn.

It sounds to me like they're getting quite comfortable expressing their 'real' reason to mass circ everyone boy in America. It has nothing to do with AIDS.

This is prejudice behavior. And I'd ask OA if they'd go after my blond hair blue eye intact sons too.

Remember when all those delusional genital cutting American "scientists" urging the UK to increase their circumcision rates with the claim that circumcision will cure and prevent club feet? The UK got smart and saw right through that. Their circ rates declined drastically.

Thank you Dave for being there at the conference. So, you stood up in the audience and yelled at him about the derogatory image against intact males?

The fact it was up there infuriates me.

[glongley]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

What about my white, Caucasian, blond headed, blue-eyed son? Do they want to cut off his foreskin too, or just those of minorities?

This makes me so angry and I have so much to say, yet I won't, out of fear that I'll get the thread shut down.

I'm about to bow out of this fight anyway. It's too draining and those who agree with circ go to too many ludicrous lengths to justify it. It's too much.

Just wanted to send you some personal hugs too .

"What about my white, Caucasian, blond headed, blue-eyed son? Do they want to cut off his foreskin too, or just those of minorities? This makes me so angry and I have so much to say, yet I won't, out of fear that I'll get the thread shut down. I'm about to bow out of this fight anyway. It's too draining and those who agree with circ go to too many ludicrous lengths to justify it. It's too much."

I had the same reaction, especially in realizing how demeaning and discriminatory and insulting and oppressive a push for universal circumcision is to intact men, and grieving that my own beautiful, whole sons should be thought of by anyone in that way. Good for Dave for letting out all the pent-up outrage of having received these messages about being a normal, intact male all his life. The cultural sickness is laid bare. They need to hear the truth of their prejudice.

I agree it is ludicrous, and lunatic, and just plain too much to deal with, and seemingly too big a battle to fight. I myself have not slept well the last few nights ruminating on what I want to tell the CDC (I did write a letter to the Editor of the NYT through the Intact America site), and also feeling like I would just have to quit working in the nursery if the CDC ever did come out with a recommendation for routine circumcision, because as bad as it is to be around circumcision now, it would be so much worse to see the smugness and self-justification over a renewed crusade to put all babies under the knife.

But I have also felt, that as ugly as it is, that at least the fight is out in the open, that Intact America is finally getting some press time (and will continue to do so), and the CDC's statements have been so outrageous as to have angered and catalyzed huge numbers of people to speak out. Man, social change sucks, doesn't it? But there's no turning back now.

I am so grateful to Georganne and Marilyn and David Llewellyn and Dan Bollinger and Amber Craig and all the other people who have sweated bullets and taken the punches and stretched themselves beyond their limits to fight this fight in the biggest arenas there are. I am so grateful to everyone at MDC who does whatever they can, and goes through all the sweat and emotional turmoil that this fight demands.

Anybody who's pregnant - just go take care of your little one and yourself and don't worry about what's going on now. Anyone who is really hurting or overwhelmed from this - take care of yourself and find things that nurture and support you and feel sane and life-affirming to you - take a break if you have to. We're only human.

But read on below, though, to realize that we have already made a difference, that our posts and letters and breath and prayers do make a difference, that "the truth will out" one day, and we will all have been a part of ending this nightmare for boys everywhere. We just need to keep the heat on the CDC and the AAP.

Intact America’s presence at the CDC conference, and the recent media flurry have made quite an impression. Check out the new statement the CDC just issued about the circumcision policy, dated today, August 27, 2009:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/resear...rcumcision.htm

Status of CDC Male Circumcision Recommendations

Some recent reports have speculated about the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC’s) upcoming public health recommendations on male circumcision for HIV prevention in the United States.

It is important to note that the recommendations are still in development and CDC has made no determination at this time about the final content. CDC is employing a deliberative, evidence-based process for developing the circumcision recommendations, which allows for both external and internal CDC experts to provide input. CDC will also publish draft recommendations for public comment before the content will be finalized.

With respect to infant circumcision, it is important to recognize that many options are still being considered in this process, including simply recommending that health-care providers educate parents about the potential benefits and risks to ensure that parents have the information they need to make an informed decision.

In developing its recommendations, CDC is also considering whether circumcision should be recommended for heterosexual adults at high risk for HIV infection in the United States, as well as whether there is sufficient scientific evidence to make any recommendations for men who have sex with men.

Whatever the content may include, CDC’s final circumcision recommendations will be completely voluntary. While CDC has not yet determined if male circumcision should be recommended for any population, ultimately the decision will rest with individuals and parents. CDC’s public health imperative is to provide the best possible information on the risks and benefits to help inform those decisions.

For further information, please link to CDC Fact Sheet on male circumcision.

Last Modified: August 27, 2009
Last Reviewed: August 27, 2009
Content Source:
Divisions of HIV/AIDS Prevention
National Center for HIV/AIDS, Viral Hepatitis, STD, and TB Prevention

Gillian

[Quirky]

That is un-freaking-believable about the elephant trunk.

Can you imagine the public outrage if someone took a picture of the female vulva and drew, I don't know, a hairy monkey butt around it or something and had a similar cartoon bubble? They'd be tarred and feathered and rode out of town on a rail in about three seconds.

I am so outraged, Dave, I can't even imagine how angry you must be to have witnessed that level of BS. Talk about beyond the pale.

[Quirky]

Do we have any names and addresses that we know are good and valid at the CDC -- i.e. a letter might actually have a shot at getting read by someone and not just gaffed off?

[Papai]

Gillian,

Thank you for sharing that. You're right, the intact side is being heard from more and more, and the CDC has clearly reacted to the charges of mass, routine circumcision. Glad they're re-affirming the point that the decision always rests with individuals.

But this part:

CDC will also publish draft recommendations for public comment before the content will be finalized.

When it comes time for public comment, it's important to voice our opinions loud and clear.

[susienjay]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

What about my white, Caucasian, blond headed, blue-eyed son? Do they want to cut off his foreskin too, or just those of minorities?

It seems like they'd like to think that the only intact males in the country are minorities, immigrants, and those that can't afford to pay for it. :

This all makes me so angry. They will sit around and discuss the merits of slicing off part of every single newborn boys penis for a slight reduction in HIV. However they refuse to barely mention any possible complications or any possible human rights violations of circing. I guess once it is done everything is wonderful and there are never any problems. Why aren't they up in arms about the whole MRSA thing? That could potentially be a way worse problem from the CDCs standpoint.

I just found out this week my cousin's little 3 year old has what sounds like meatal stenosis. I'm getting the info 3rd hand from my mom but he had surgery to "help him pee" and now they have to make sure he goes every 2 hours so the hole doesn't start to close up again. Sigh. Yet another complication no one seems to want to acknowledge.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by susienjay

It seems like they'd like to think that the only intact males in the country are minorities, immigrants, and those that can't afford to pay for it. :

This all makes me so angry. They will sit around and discuss the merits of slicing off part of every single newborn boys penis for a slight reduction in HIV. However they refuse to barely mention any possible complications or any possible human rights violations of circing. I guess once it is done everything is wonderful and there are never any problems. Why aren't they up in arms about the whole MRSA thing? That could potentially be a way worse problem from the CDCs standpoint.

I just found out this week my cousin's little 3 year old has what sounds like meatal stenosis. I'm getting the info 3rd hand from my mom but he had surgery to "help him pee" and now they have to make sure he goes every 2 hours so the hole doesn't start to close up again. Sigh. Yet another complication no one seems to want to acknowledge.

Meatal stenosis is more common than a UTI. Yet, its not disclosed in a consent form. 9% of circumcised boys will get this and ONLY circ'd boys.

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

Thank you Dave for being there at the conference. So, you stood up in the audience and yelled at him about the derogatory image against intact males?

Sometimes it is really great to have a lawyer on your team

[TCA2008]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Do we have any names and addresses that we know are good and valid at the CDC -- i.e. a letter might actually have a shot at getting read by someone and not just gaffed off?

Yes, go to www.circumcisionandhiv.com and click on AAP/CDC project.

[phatchristy]

This is so appauling. Though I'm not an intact male (intact female), my father, his father, etc. and my sons, etc. so my bloodlines are intact. I find that so offensive on multiple levels. And, even as a wife of a circumcised man (done without his consent), I'm equally offended. That genitals are mocked like that at a supposed 'professional conference' what?

I mean, that goes so far BEYOND unprofessional--I'm just shocked.

I'm with Papai--this needs to be reported to the media. Most definitely, huffington posts blog and how about contacting the ACLU? At least an article about what is going on.