What else can I do?! - Page 2

[Awaken]

Thanks to all of you for your input, it is hard for me to know what's "normal" since this is all I've ever known! All I know is that my parenting experience seems to be a lot different than most people's! He has always been extreme, since birth. Always a huge reaction, and has never been able to handle any sort of disappointment or loss. I am similar, and know that I had similar reactions as a child- wanting to destroy things or do something extreme when there was a disappointment that couldn't be overcome. So I see where he gets it from- but still don't know what to do about it to help him learn to live with it.

Well I hope no one gets flamed for suggesting therapy I see nothing wrong with that suggestion! I have gone to a therapist for *me* to learn to deal with issues, but he hasn't. He's had OT and all the other therapies from 18 mos.- 5 yo but not behavioral or family counseling. I was considering seeing a therapist to help me as I learn to deal with this and all the issues with the coming of the new baby, so maybe I will bring it up then and see what she thinks of him needing longer term therapy.

Originally Posted by Seie

Maybe you waited too long to get angry?
Anger IMO is not a "no no" for gentle parents. You as a parent need to maintain your personal boundaries in order for your child to respect them. Anger doesnt equal abuse. Its a natural reaction when someone oversteps your boundaries.

that IMO is necessary enforcement of your personal boundaries. Being a gentle parent doesnt mean putting up with your child treating you bad.
I am not saying that doing this could have stopped the whole situation from unfolding, but it does sound to me like your son is unsure what is acceptable to you and what isn't?

Thank you for that- I try so hard to control my anger, because it seems like if I let it happen, I have a problem controlling myself. But then maybe you're right, I waited too long and then it just explodes. I feel like getting angry at them and yelling at all is "too mean" and try really hard to stay calm, but maybe the issue should be more of getting angry appropriately so I don't save it all up.

Originally Posted by stik

I realized that offering tons of empathy for her every little moment of sadness or disappointment was making everyone's life miserable, most especially hers. I felt terrible while I was learning how to do it, but keeping those moments of empathy under 10 seconds at a time for most issues has really helped her put things in perspective and respond appropriately. Some stuff is big - our cat died when she was five and we talked about it for weeks. But most stuff - running out of the favorite cereal, a hole in the sock, the presence of an herb on the chicken at dinner - doesn't deserve to be made big enough to ruin our day. Learning how to limit her emotional reaction to the actual magnitude of the circumstances was a revelation for her, and it's left her with significantly more free time to explore other interests. She's a much happier child now.

Thanks also for this- I hadn't thought about that. I try to be sympathetic because I know little things are important to him, but maybe being more careful to give the right level of sympathy for the loss is something I need to pay more attention to, to model for him what is worth lots of attention and what can be let go. But then I feel like it is hard to judge for someone else what is important in their minds, and what isn't! There are a lot of things I care deeply about that others wouldn't give a second thought to. I will ponder that!

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Addressing this...

It is common for parents of children with emotional challenges to accomodate WAY more than the average parent would accomodate.

From the outside, it is easy to say "he does that because you accomodate (coddle) him", but the truth is that the child's intensity and overreactions usually came way before the accomodations. The accomodations developed from the parents' attempts to survive and function with the child.

Yes, you are SO right! He was definitely this way from the start, we didn't create it! We have all just developed coping mechanisms so we can all live as peacefully as possible!

Oh, and he doesn't have a massive fit every few days, it's a combination of my 3 yo entering the "terrible 3's", my 6 yo and his intensity, and me being really tired and snapping easily a lot of the time, that every few days SOME sort of incident will happen that I question all my parenting abilities! He is actually quite engaging and great to be around a lot of the time.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Awaken

I try so hard to control my anger, because it seems like if I let it happen, I have a problem controlling myself. But then maybe you're right, I waited too long and then it just explodes. I feel like getting angry at them and yelling at all is "too mean" and try really hard to stay calm, but maybe the issue should be more of getting angry appropriately so I don't save it all up..

When you have a child with emotional challenges, it becomes particularly important to model healthy expression of anger so that they can learn to express their own anger healthfully.

I never really learned to express anger appropriately from my parents. They bottled and erupted (although not in a scary way or frequently....but still not in a way that modeled healthy expression of anger). I've had to learn this as an adult.

The first thing I tend to do when challenged by my emotionally intense child is whisper slowly and forcefully--enunciating clearly: "Do. Not. Hit. Your. Brother." She's learned that this means "I've had enough". I also tend to describe my feelings aloud to her with a lot of "I" statements: "I am so frustrated! I am really tired and wanted to be home by now!" In this way, I am not yelling at her, but I am clearly expressing my negative feelings. I do know that, when she is in full meltdown, any yelling just adds to the chaos and fuels her fury--sort of like yelling at an already barking dog. That is probably why I learned to whisper forcefully.

About the accomodations, while I understand that why we make them, I also understand that they are usually not in my dc's best interest. Much better is to help her reduce whatever it is that is making her so miserable and rigid (for my dd, it is anxiety), so that she can be more flexible and resilient and deal with small frustrations and disappointments in a more adaptive way. But we definitely needed outside help to get there.

[basje]

Wow, my heart goes out for you. I've worked with a lot of families who have children who feel things really intensely, maybe it's a personality thing, maybe not. One thing is for sure, his anger issued could have seriously caused him to hurt himself! And that's not okay.

I think the good thing in your situation is that he's young, and your willing to do what you can to help him learn to manage his feelings in a healthy way! I think therapy is a really great idea. Find somebody to can work with him on learning the words to express himself, and coping skills for when he's angery. You can practice with him on how to use constructive ways to express his frustration, sadness or dissapointment. You can give him some inexpesive earphones and music to listen to when she's sad, or angery. When he's dissapointed, encourage him to paint what it feels like inside. Validate his feelings and offer physical support like cuddling when he's sad. You could sit down an make a whole list for youself of coping skills that you could teach and practice with your son.

Some things you might want to consider
1) Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child (a book for you!) http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Emotio.../dp/0684838656

2) books for him to help increase his ability to use words to express his emotions Anh's Anger by Gail Silver, The Goodnight Caterpillar by Lori Lite, Hands Are Not for Hitting, and The Way I Feel

3) It's seems like his tolerance for stress is low, this likely won't change. Daily exercise is especally important for children and adults with stress and depression issues. Make this a part of his lifestyle now, and teach him a wonderful coping skill that he can use for the rest of his life. I would suggest something non-violent like swimming, track, horsebackriding, tennis, [boy this this is looking sooo middle class! ] to ensure sporting is something that he can use to decompress and get some of that stress out, not re-enforce aggressive behavoir.

4) It's interesting that he stopped when you 'got mad' it seems like maybe he was really looking for a boundry from you. With this personality does he do better with struccture or complete freedom? Is he a mess when things don't go the way they usually do? It might be worth while it find a therepist that specializes in children with emotional problems and go in for a few session to get some coaching for youself on setting boundries with your son that will help him feel more okay when things fall apart.

Good for you for asking for feedback and being willing to make some changes for your son. He's lucky to have a mom who's so on it!

[Magella]

Another great post by sunnmama.

I suggest you read The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It's just an excellent book that is all about helping inflexible, easily frustrated children learn the skills they need in order to function without all the melting down. You will read some of the case stories and think "my kid is nothing like these kids!" but don't let that stop you. I find that this book was incredibly helpful even in helping me better parent my more laid back kids, and also helpful as part of learning to manage my own anger and frustration. It gave me a whole new way to understand my kids and their behavior, and thus new and more effective ways of responding to it. And it really helped us identify some (but not all) of the specific issues that led to our dd's meltdowns/other difficult behavior.

I, too, found that learning to model healthy ways of handling emotions is even more critical with a child who has emotional challenges. It's important both for helping them learn the skills they need in order to deal with intense emotion in appropriate and healthy ways, and for just keeping situations more calm (if I'm not dealing with my anger and frustration well, I add to our problems, make the situation even more difficult). Working with your therapist on anger management skills for yourself may help. Also, there are a couple of good books out there to help parents learn better anger management skills. One is When Anger Hurts Your Kids. (Not implying that your anger is hurting your kids, I just think this book has some good information about healthy management and expression of anger.) I can't think of some of the others off the top of my head. Time-Out for Parents was helpful, and is more about taking care of ourselves so we can take care of our children. Liking the Child You Love has some excellent and practical advice for becoming aware of thoughts that lead to anger, and learning new ways of thinking about situations that can keep us calmer (and staying calmer allows us to respond more effectively). One big key for me (and a skill my child needed to learn too) was to become aware of my feelings sooner, and to express them in healthy ways sooner.

About the accomodations, while I understand that why we make them, I also understand that they are usually not in my dc's best interest. Much better is to help her reduce whatever it is that is making her so miserable and rigid (for my dd, it is anxiety), so that she can be more flexible and resilient and deal with small frustrations and disappointments in a more adaptive way. But we definitely needed outside help to get there.

We found that once we got a good handle on why dd reacts as she does, and how we can help her with those issues, we were able to stop many accommodations. There are reasonable accommodations that a person may actually need due to their temperament or other issue (ex.: we know our dd has difficulty with transitions, so we allow more time for them and give her plenty of notice that a transition is coming), and there are accommodations that really aren't in her best interest (or the family's) in the long run even though they might (or might not) help us avoid a scene right now. It can be tricky, sometimes, to see which is which. An objective, outside opinion can be very helpful in this area.

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by stik

I've never considered myself GD by MDC standards, but in the days before I was a parent, I *looooved* _How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk_. It made so much sense to me, and all that empathy worked so well with the kids I was working with.

And then I had my own kids, and by the time my oldest dd was four, I realized that offering tons of empathy for her every little moment of sadness or disappointment was making everyone's life miserable, most especially hers. I felt terrible while I was learning how to do it, but keeping those moments of empathy under 10 seconds at a time for most issues has really helped her put things in perspective and respond appropriately. Some stuff is big - our cat died when she was five and we talked about it for weeks. But most stuff - running out of the favorite cereal, a hole in the sock, the presence of an herb on the chicken at dinner - doesn't deserve to be made big enough to ruin our day. Learning how to limit her emotional reaction to the actual magnitude of the circumstances was a revelation for her, and it's left her with significantly more free time to explore other interests. She's a much happier child now.

I think you handled the situation as best you could. Be gentle to yourself - the marks on his arm will fade quickly. I don't know if your ds needs therapy or not, but it may be helpful to let go of the idea that you will always empathize over every loss or disappointment.

I agree with this post completely.

You know, I'm reading a book with The Kid right now called Understood Betsy. It's just a storybook, a rather old one at that, but the story is so satisfying and somehow expresses exactly what I think of GD - the two ends of the spectrum of it. The main character goes from a home where she is empathized with, cuddled, openly loved, and encouraged to express her emotions without limit, to a home just the opposite - yet still GD, and more importantly, helps her define her own limits and path.

[Awaken]

Such great suggestions- thank you so much! I"ve been thinking about all this a lot the past few days. Great book suggestions- actually I found a copy of "The Explosive Child" at the used book store and picked it up in case anyone I knew wanted it- I guess I will read it myself! I wish I could read them all right away and get lots of help, but realistically it will take me a while!

Originally Posted by sunnmama

When you have a child with emotional challenges, it becomes particularly important to model healthy expression of anger so that they can learn to express their own anger healthfully.

I never really learned to express anger appropriately from my parents. They bottled and erupted (although not in a scary way or frequently....but still not in a way that modeled healthy expression of anger). I've had to learn this as an adult.

YES- me, too. Thinking back, the times I remember my parents expressing anger my dad did destroy things (like rip up clothes, throw something, etc), and I remember as a young child the urge to wreck something, bite, hit, when I got mad, and don't remember any guidance from my parents. Now I'm so sad I haven't outgrown that and I seem to be passing it on to my kids

My issue is, what ARE healthy expressions of anger? Sadly, I don't even know what to encourage him to do to let it out in a safe, healthy way. I totally understand how he feels, wanting to hurt or destroy something in his rage- both of us need to find a way to channel it.

Today we had another incident- we had a great day earlier, lots of 1:1 time, connection between us, in fact he was even more cheerful and happy than usual. Then he and his brother got into a fight at the park, he got bitten, and was understandably very angry and hurt. Of course right away he starts running into the street, saying he's going to hurt me, knock down a fence, wants to ruin the playground, knock down someone's house. I kept talking to him calmly, saying I understand he's angry and hurt, but we can't hurt others. It just seemed to perpetuate it and he kept trying to do it all. I felt like I had no other suggestions for how to get his anger out and to move on and he just needed some kind of physical expression. Finally my dh came over and just carried him away and distracted him and eventually he got happy again. Then again when we had to leave, he didn't want to and kept saying someone has to get hurt, he's going to hurt my dh. Eventually he was distracted by other things and stopped, but I still felt like that didn't resolve the situation. This is all brand new behavior, staring with the original incident a few days ago!

What is ok? Hitting something inanimate with a stick? throwing mulch or rocks, not at a person? I understand he needs to DO something, but I don't know what to encourage him to do so we can move on.

Originally Posted by basje

4) It's interesting that he stopped when you 'got mad' it seems like maybe he was really looking for a boundry from you. With this personality does he do better with struccture or complete freedom? Is he a mess when things don't go the way they usually do? It might be worth while it find a therepist that specializes in children with emotional problems and go in for a few session to get some coaching for youself on setting boundries with your son that will help him feel more okay when things fall apart.

I've really been thinking on this. Yes, you're right, it seems like nothing stops until I yell or do something physical to startle him- grab his arm, set him down too firmly on the bed, etc. Then he gets over it and is usually pleasant as can be. I hate using physical force because obviously that reinforces what he's doing, hurting someone when we get upset, and as he gets bigger and stronger and I get more pregnant and have a baby in my arms, that won't work.

I noticed the other day, he was stepping on his brother's feet from behind- the 3 yo asked nicely about 3x for him to please stop, which had no effect. When he turned around and growled and yelled "stop it!" and pushed him, he happily stopped and didn't protest. Maybe all my attempts to be calm are backfiring, and he needs me to draw a stronger line instead of calmly listening and trying to talk him through everything. Maybe I need to be more firm, right up front and say we are going to STOP THIS NOW, and this is NOT OK, and save the talking it through for when he's calmer and more able to think.

I just keep reading about how when kids are out of control, what they need most is the parent to be their source of calmness and control, so I've really been trying to be that, since usually he and I both get worked up easily. I guess I need to practice getting firm, and being stronger with the boundaries of hurting others and running into the street, without getting upset and out of control myself.

[reezley]

Originally Posted by Awaken

My issue is, what ARE healthy expressions of anger? Sadly, I don't even know what to encourage him to do to let it out in a safe, healthy way. I totally understand how he feels, wanting to hurt or destroy something in his rage- both of us need to find a way to channel it.


I've really been thinking on this. Yes, you're right, it seems like nothing stops until I yell or do something physical to startle him- grab his arm, set him down too firmly on the bed, etc. Then he gets over it and is usually pleasant as can be. I hate using physical force because obviously that reinforces what he's doing, hurting someone when we get upset, and as he gets bigger and stronger and I get more pregnant and have a baby in my arms, that won't work.

I noticed the other day, he was stepping on his brother's feet from behind- the 3 yo asked nicely about 3x for him to please stop, which had no effect. When he turned around and growled and yelled "stop it!" and pushed him, he happily stopped and didn't protest. Maybe all my attempts to be calm are backfiring, and he needs me to draw a stronger line instead of calmly listening and trying to talk him through everything. Maybe I need to be more firm, right up front and say we are going to STOP THIS NOW, and this is NOT OK, and save the talking it through for when he's calmer and more able to think.

I just keep reading about how when kids are out of control, what they need most is the parent to be their source of calmness and control, so I've really been trying to be that, since usually he and I both get worked up easily. I guess I need to practice getting firm, and being stronger with the boundaries of hurting others and running into the street, without getting upset and out of control myself.

You've gotten great advice from others. You asked what are appropriate ways to show anger/hurt - I'd say: crying, saying (even yelling) how upset you are or what's bothering you, stomping, crossing arms and looking angry, going off to your own space to pout and cool off. One other thing, regarding being firm, would be to set some consequences for the behavior. Losing some related privilege, having to actually apologize to the garden owner or fix it or pay for it, etc. Or "celebrating" handling his upset well by doing something special with you. (Play a game of his choosing, etc.) Obviously these would not replace being firm in the moment to get the behavior to stop - but hopefully would lessen them over time. Overall - I do agree with the others that therapy seems the right thing to do here.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Awaken

My issue is, what ARE healthy expressions of anger? Sadly, I don't even know what to encourage him to do to let it out in a safe, healthy way. I totally understand how he feels, wanting to hurt or destroy something in his rage- both of us need to find a way to channel it.

You might like the book "When Sophie Gets Angry, Really, Really Angry" by Molly Bang. It's a picture book about a girl who gets REALLY angry, and she runs off to be alone in a peaceful spot and comes back when she feels better.

Another I like is "Tiger, Tiger", about a boy who gets angry, and goes off and imagines a tiger that will come and eat the people that made him angry, lol, but then feels better and joins his family for dinner.

(can you tell we did a lot of reading about this issue when dd was small? )

Everyone needs to develop coping skills. Dd has learned to go to her own space, listen to music, cry (yes, she had to learn to cry when angry...and it took years), take a shower (water calms her), and eventually come back out and talk the issue through.

I've dealt with the urge to lash out, myself, and have learned to take a walk, call my mom or sister , take a time out, go to the gym, cry, listen to soundgarden, lol.

The most helpful thing I've learned is speaking up earlier when I am getting upset. When I am aware of and honest about my feelings (honest with myself, as much as with others), I am much more likely to stay within a manageable level of anger.

Also, prevention is incredibly important for both kids and adults! Food, rest, time with others, time alone....we all have needs to be met. As adults, we have to make sure to meet our needs before we care care for our dc. As children, our dc need us to help them be aware of and meet their needs before they become angry, unmet needs.

[nummies]

Just wanted to say thank you all so much for the advice on this thread. One of the best ones that I have seen in awhile. I have a 2 year old who is demonstrating some anger issues that go beyond normal reactions and this has opened my eyes to that. I have a hard time controllling my anger and I think I am passing this on to him. Thankfully, there have been lots of suggestions here and I am going to work on this with my therapist.

So thanks!