DD's first 'consequence' lesson at school today.... - Page 2

[momsgotmilk4two]

I'm glad it all worked out for the OP. I didn't think the punishment fit the crime either.

Greaseball, I have to disagree with you here. I don't see anything wrong with please and thank you and it works both ways. At my child's school I routinely hear the teachers thanking the kids for things as well. I haven't actually heard them prompt kids for a "please" or "thank you", but they do model manners. My kids say please and thank you not because we have forced them but because they hear us say it. "hey you, go get me this" would not be acceptable in my house from my child or my husband. I just wonder how your child is going to get along in the real world later on if she is expected people to jump when she snaps her fingers since that's the way it works in your home: I don't mean that as an insult, I honestly don't understand. As for cleaning, I agree with the poster who said she doubts they have the kids scrubbing toilets. We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.:

[BusyMommy]

This would make a great poll
I do think kids need to learn manners and I think they should be modeled and practiced at home and at school.

At home, if I want dh to bring me something or cook a special dinner, I don't say "please." I just say "Hey, can I have..."

I say "please," and so does he. And, so does my 2 y.o. He even says bless you after someone sneezes and he apologizes to the dogs & cats if he bumps into them. For him, this is simply normal behavior.

But, re: OP, although the consequence wasn't directly related to the action, I think it's awesome that your daughter understood. If I don't take responsibility for my actions; ie. clean my area, then I lose a privilege. Glad you guys got it worked out, but to your dd for being so mature

[Greaseball]

We are probably talking about putting away the kids *own* things. Is the teacher really expected to go around and tidy up each child's desk for them? I don't think the kids should be paid to clean up their own things.

Maybe that's what it was...I got the feeling the OP was talking about classroom supplies, which I think should be the job of a janitor. As for a child's desk, I think she can have her space as she wants it. I had the messiest desk in 3rd grade - people were drawing cartoons about it - but could find something in there quicker than the other kids could find things in their clean desks. It was an "organized mess."

If any of you here have a maid, do you still clean up after yourself? I wouldn't.

Maybe someday I will see a need for manners but not at age 2. Perhaps at age 4 or 5 we will start off with small things like please and thank you.

I don't think it's the words that are important, but what you are trying to convey. Often, if dh does something nice for me, I'll say something like "Hey, I really appreciated that! It was so nice of you to do that for me." I think showing sincere appreciation is more important than saying "thank you." I guess I believe in "magic attitudes" and not "magic words."

[momsgotmilk4two]

I didn't think we were talking about two year olds since this was a thread about school. My two year old does use please and thank you though, simply because he's copying us. I'm not sure what you are saying about the maid. My mom does have one, but she has to clean before the maid gets there. Most maid services services to not pick up your clothes or wash your dishes or things of that nature. They just clean the surfaces. Anything else would be extra. Regardless, I am not my child's maid, he does not pay me to clean up after him. Nor is the teacher my child's maid, she is paid to teach. Janitors are paid to do certain things around the school, but not *everything*.

[BusyMommy]

T Just had to comment, :LOL we have a housekeeper and she keeps me on my toes. Sounds dumb, but I bust out a clean house the evening before her cleaning day. I'd rather have her get the stuff I hate; ie. the fridge, the oven...ewwww

[Alegria]

Greaseball, I wish we could have a playdate.


Maggie05
I think the issue is much deeper than "Please and thank you."
It's a societal issue where adults in general dont treat children with respect, especially in schools. They have POWER OVER children.
Adults, including teachers, are fallible, but they assume to know more and always to be right without even listening to a child.

And like I said before, forced consequences are just a scare tactic.


I don't want dd to learn to obey orders with out thinking things through. I want her to choose her direction in life, I don't want her doing busy work. I want her to have power in her own life. and her own education.



I think it's important that parents re-examin the values we were taught. We might change some of our core beliefs after deeper exporation about where they came from.

It would be interesting to have a discussion about what a public education is meant to do. in terms of preserving the status quo, training an obediant work force and raising consumers.

Children ONLY learn respect by being RESPECTED. I agree that Adults have the responsibility to first treat children respectfully, and continue to be respectful even if a child is disrespectful because the child is the one learning and she learns by example

If I child is disrespectful to me I tell them in a kind and gental way how it makes me feal and I show them how I want them to talk to me. It works pretty well.

[momsgotmilk4two]

"And like I said before, forced consequences are just a scare tactic."


So are you an anarchist?

[Alegria]

NO I'm not an anarchist, closer to a socialist



but There is a distinction between natural consequence and 'because you didn't do what I wanted you do do, I'm going to cause you discomfort in some way' to "teach you a lesson"


The lesson the child get's isn't usually the lesson the adult is trying to teach. What does swimming have to do with cleaning. It's not teaching resposibility, it might be teaching avoidance of punishment, fear of adults or obedience, I'm not very fond of blind obedience. I don't force my 3.5 year old to OBEY me. I treat her as though her needs AND wants are as important as mine. Well I'm not so good at that yet but it's what I'm moving toward.

[lauren]

Alegria I think if the topic branches out into challenging members why they send their child to public school to be educated, it could be interpreted (on this particular forum) as confrontational. The Learning at School forum is not for debating public school vs. homeschooling. Members who visit here are either learning about the option of public/alternative school, figuring out how to navigate the ins and outs of public/alternative schools, or to get help with the inevitable difficulties in any schooling environment.

The debate about consequences vs. no consequences seems to be a matter of personal preference, and school choice if choice is available. For example, a family that prefers a democratic model might move closer to a democratic school, where no consequences are going to be imposed. Many people that choose public school know that there are consquences imposed there, and the trade off might be made if that is the best option for the family. We all are learning how to choose what's best for our child and how to advocate for our child in that environment. I think most members here would not send their child to "the state" without questioning the validity of this option.

I do think the history of public schooling and the origins of creating "workers" is an interesting one to think about. Let's just keep the focus of the discussion helpful, not critical.

[Alegria]

I edited the post, It isn't my intent to challenge members here or to be confrontational. To provoke thought and invite discussion yes, but I was not directing critisism to any parent here. I apologize if anyone felt that I was.

[anythingelse]

it is late and I will rewrite this tomorrow

[lauren]

Alegria, thank you for editing. I didn't personally take offense, but I could see how others might have that i know visit this forum all the time and feel quite passionate about their choice to use public schools. It might have just been a matter of wording. Please know that vigorous discussion is quite welcome!; just not if it questions others choices already made.

We actually did have an interesting discussion about the topic you wondered about; if I can find it, I'll resurrect it and bring it fwd.

[lauren]

I pulled up the thread--it's named 'Against Education' in Harper's Magazine, if anyone wants to have a look (re: compulsory schooling, quality of education, teachers, etc.)

[Maggie05]

I just wanted to state that i believe all people are worthy of respect. Simply because they are people. I am a high school teacher (could ya tell?) and I rarely see my colleagues come at a student with anything other than respect. Yet I sometimes see teenagers snap, yell, and insult teachers for no other reason than they are doing their job, i.e. assigning a homework, administering a quiz, collecting an essay. To me this is unacceptable. I say thank you to every student when I collect their work. Do I have to? No. It is simply polite interaction in a civilized society.

I have been called a bitch more times than i care to count, simply for things like refusing to raise a grade that a student has earned. I can't fathom doing that to another person. I often ask myself, "Why do they feel it is acceptable for them to call me names?" The only answer I can arrive at is they have not been taught that this is not the way people act, and there have been no consequences for such rudeness.

I am not saying that ALL teachers are perfect. In my experience, though, the vast majority are polite and treat students with respect. That said, the vast majority of students are also polite and treat others with respect. However, you would not believe the amount of time that is wasted in a classroom when one student cannot be polite and "mouths off" frequently.

As far as janitors go. they are there to keep the general work area clean...the blackboards, the floors, to fix things, like the heat, or the lights. If the taxpayers had to pay for janitors to clean up the mess of every kid at the lunch table or desk, you would be paying an awful lot in taxes, and you would then be complaining about that. Every person, adult and child should clean up whatevver mess they make in this world. A janitor is also worthy of respect.

Alegria, I am not disagreeing with all that you say, but in my experience, following reasonable directions of another is part of life. My boss tells me I must have my lesson plans in on Monday. I think lesson plans are a waste of time, because I can teach the unit with my eyes closed. I still hand in my plans. He has power over me. Even the principal must answer to the school board. We all must answer to someone. Someone will have power over you your whole life. if we can make those interactions polite and respectful, it is much more pleasant for everyone involved.

I am finding this an interesting debate!

[BusyMommy]

Maggie-I agree! So sad but I used to have many of those same issues when I taught 3rd grade. That was the "culture" of that school.
Switched schools and, oh my....an entirely different environment! No-one slashed my tires or wrapped my tail pipe anymore. Now, just to deal w/overprotective parents.:LOL

[EFmom]

Maggie,

My dh is a public high school teacher, and his experiences mirror yours. I also work out of the home in a university and I see similar kinds of things.

I have worked in all sorts of environments and the point you make about always having someone to report to is quite valid, unless one plans to be self-employed. But even then, one still has to answer to customers.

[momsgotmilk4two]

Originally posted by BusyMommy
Now, just to deal w/overprotective parents.:LOL

Oh, you must be ds's teacher

I agree with those who pointed out that we all have to answer to someone. Also, we all have to abide by certain rules. Even adults have to obey speed limits and not litter and if we fail to do these things, consequences will be imposed. Is this all just supposed to happen suddenly at age 18 and up until then kids can just do whatever they want while the parents and teachers follow after them cleaning up their messes? Btw, this is not directed at the OP, this is just a general question.

[Greaseball]

I have worked in all sorts of environments and the point you make about always having someone to report to is quite valid, unless one plans to be self-employed. But even then, one still has to answer to customers.

But adults choose to get jobs. Children don't always choose to be in school. And on the job, when I have failed to clean my desk, my boss spoke respectfully to me and asked very nicely if I would clean it, instead of saying that if I didn't clean my desk I couldn't have a donut with the rest of the office, or imposing some other nonsensical consequence.

Workplaces also encourage indivuduality (at least, the nicer places I have worked, and I wouldn't accept another job that didn't!) so they will work with you on certain things. Most public schools encourage conformity.

Traffic consequences don't really make sense (what does money have to do with stop signs?) but again, adults choose to drive.

[momsgotmilk4two]

So I take it your argument is against public schools?

Anyway, most teachers (like your boss) will start out asking very nicely, making thier request. There is a problem though, when the child screams no at the top of their lungs, ignores the request, or reacts in other ways that children tend to do at times. I just don't buy the argument that kids are just like adults, only smaller. They do not reason the way adults do and do not use the same logic before a certain age. When there are many kids in one class, there is a need for general rules that all the students have to follow, rather than just making it up as you go along and changing the rules based on specific situations.

[EFmom]

With nearly 25 years experience in the workplace, in a wide variety of settings, I have yet to see a place that genuinely encourages individuality in employees on anything but a superficial level. Many give it lip service, but when push comes to shove, it's all about following the rules.

That's probably truer than ever given the state of the economy, when the boss could hire 50 people to do your job by the time you had your desk packed up. Management texts (and my job is selecting them) are loaded with advice about fostering corporate culture, encouraging "team players" and other stuff which means keeping the clones in line.