Can someone explain the "no praise" idea to me?

[bluedaisy]

I've read a few articles about the dangers of too much praise and I have to admit i don't really understand it - I'm NOT trying to start a debate or play devil's advocate, I really just want to understand because I've realized with my neice that my family over-praises and uses "good job" constantly.

What do you do to limit praise? Do you differentiate between praise and encouragement?

For example, I thank my husband when he does something for me or does soemthing extra to help me out and I compliment him when he achieves something or does something well. I do the same thing with friends, employees, etc. Don't my children deserve the same kind of treatment?

I'm also struggling with how to rephrase things, and I could use some concrete examples. I've listed some examples below of things that children do that people often say "good job" and I would love to know how you would respond instead:

Child does something for the first time - i.e., walking, tying their shoe, washing their plate, etc.

Older child achieves something significant - gets a good grade on a test, scores a goal in the soccer game, works hard on an art project, etc

Child helps out around the house and goes above and beyond what he usually does and you appreciate what he has done to help out

Some other not so notable examples that I've heard "good job" with my neice are things like:

- finishing food
- sharing toys
- being gentle with a younger sibling
- cleaning up toys

Please help me understand this

[seriosa]

Not a reply, I was seriously wanting to ask the same question. I definitely praise my son a lot. When he does something new, when he achieves something special. Sometimes I just tell how happy I am to have him. I thank him for happy days, or sometimes list the reasons I consider him a good boy. There is also the other side of the medal because I will also tell him when I am unhappy or disapointed with his behaviour, when he is selfish or disobbedient etc. So it seems reasonable that if I point out where he does not meet the mark, that I also do so where he meets or exceeds it. So yes if someone could explain the principle that would be appreciated!

ETA
The examples OP gave above, finishing food, clearing toys, etc, I would use "good job" too. Sometimes my DH will thank me for cleaning house, or for making his meals every day. These are my duties and I don't do them for the thanks, but it is so sweet to be appreciated even for these mundane things!

[mamazee]

Well, first of all, I'd never say it especially for finishing food. Why is it a "good job" to finish food? I'm afraid that could make a kid think it's a good thing to eat when you aren't hungry.

But, more generally, the idea is that if kids are praised in a manipulative way, as in to get them to do something more often that you want them to do, then they learn to do things for the praise rather than for intrinsic reasons.

Here's an article that explains it more thoroughly: Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!"

[mckittre]

I'm a little confused by this concept too.

In adult life, don't we all do things at least partly for the appreciation? If I do something especially nice for my husband, I do it at least in part because I know he'll appreciate it. If I make a tasty pie for a party, I am pleased when people appreciate it and tell me it tastes good. This "manipulates" me to be more likely to do a kind thing again, or to bake another pie. My boss manipulates me by telling me when I've done a good job on a project. My editors manipulate me when they tell me what parts they like about the book I've written.

Why is childhood different?

[roxyrox]

Originally Posted by mckittre

I'm a little confused by this concept too.

In adult life, don't we all do things at least partly for the appreciation? If I do something especially nice for my husband, I do it at least in part because I know he'll appreciate it. If I make a tasty pie for a party, I am pleased when people appreciate it and tell me it tastes good. This "manipulates" me to be more likely to do a kind thing again, or to bake another pie. My boss manipulates me by telling me when I've done a good job on a project. My editors manipulate me when they tell me what parts they like about the book I've written.

Why is childhood different?

I agree. And I actually tried the "no praise" stuff for a while. IMO, it doesn't work. And really, how is saying "I love the colour you painted that truck" (I actually think this is patronising thinking about it!) any different from saying "well done, that's cool" (I am from UK and I think that's the equivalent of "good job" here).

[_betsy_]

I think there's a difference between not wanting to use empty praise and no praise what so ever.

We encourage, support and praise each other as appropriate in this house. If DD puts all her toys away without being asked for the first time ever or something like that, I'm going to praise her. But I'm not just going to say Good job! and give high 5s or whatever. I'm going to tell her I am happy she cleaned up all on her own and say that she must be proud of herself for doing it so well and without being asked.

I want my words to her to mean something. Just saying "Good job" all the time does some wierd stuff - it makes every little thing in life seem like a job, or work, or a chore. Say she's coloring, I don't want to just say Good job, I want to be specific - That's a lot of blue, you really love that shade, don't you? Tell me about your picture, is that the sun? etc. Engage the child, don't dismiss.

You know how some parents totally overuse the word no, to the point that kids don't even hear it anymore? I don't want my praise to be the same way.

[Amys1st]

I have a few ways to weigh in.

I was at the library one time watching a mother teach a lesson to her 4 yr old son, as my dd was looking thru books.
He was writing out letters. He literally wrote A and would look up at her. She would squell GOOD JOB!!. Then he wrote B and would look up at her. She would squell GOOD JOB! Then he wrote C and would look up at her. She would squell GOOD JOB! Get my drift?? This went on 26 times plus 10 more as he wrote 1-10. By the time she got to L, there were a few people exchanging looks with me and 2 librarians were rolling their eyes.
Can you imagine being married to this lady?? Or having her as a parent or worse neighbor?

My daughter learned how to ride her bike this summer. As we were teaching her and she was struggling, I would say, its hard work, but worth it in the end. She kept doing it and got it. I said good job on working hard and seeing the reward.


She will bring home a math test today. If its a good grade, I will say job well done, lets hang it up. If there are lots of mistakes, we will go over it and see if we can correct them for next time. Am I going to say Good job for finishing your homework? No, but I am going to say wow we now have extra time before bed for reading or extra time for whatever...

Last spring in softball she caught a double out. The batter hit it to her, she caught it while then stepping on 3rd. So she struck out the batter and the runner to 3rd. That was awesome! Yes, I said good job because it wont happen like that again for a while. Plus what she learned to get to that point in softball, yes it was a good job. Her coach also said good job and her teamed high fived her.

[ann_of_loxley]

Praise towards children is often used in a very manipulative way.
It is, in a way, the exact same thing as punishment - just the other side of the coin...but the same coin (those who choose to practice no praise, also, I think, practice no punishments - we ourselves try for a consensual lifestyle/household). It is doing something to your child to get them to continue to behave in a way that pleases you. 'Good job/Good boy/girl!' - Some people think this is a fantastic way to discipline (I think its called 'positive discipline') and that is their choice - but for us, I want my son to do the right thing for the right reason. Not because he wants to please me (or avoid something bad happening to him that I will do to him - cause its all about working with a child, not doing to them). Naturally, as a social creature, being only human, he will want to please me (we all want to please those we love - which is Alfie Kohns point on how uncondtional parenting shows our children unconditional love) - but I do not want to use that against him to get him to behave in a way that pleases me - that can only put a child on egg shells. Or they can become attention seekers (or completely rebellious - and then you have a serious problem! lol) - but then are they truely happy inside? My son is a growing child, not an adult. If someone tells me 'good job' or 'well done'! - sure, I am happy but I am also not a growing small individual in the world, I can see manipulation for what it is. (you know when you get a call from a friend and they are going on about how great you are and you are like 'so what are you after?' lmao...) - I want to be happy as well. Do we not do things to make ourselves happy? I would hate for my son ever feel he had to make himself unhappy just to make others happy (which is the point of learning how to be consensual - cause I am also not teaching him to make others unhappy just for the sake of his own happiness).

For example, I thank my husband when he does something for me or does soemthing extra to help me out and I compliment him when he achieves something or does something well. I do the same thing with friends, employees, etc. Don't my children deserve the same kind of treatment?

Of course they do! Thats exact what 'no praise' is though - right there. Where is the priase in any of that? 'Thanking' someone for something is simply showing them you appreciated their help, you didn't tell your DH he was a 'good boy' for helping did you? lol - I rarely hear parents 'thank' their children for something they appreciated them doing. This is not manipulative, this is simply showing gratitude. Also, sharing in your childs joy of their own acheviements is not praising them - it is not manipulative, it is sharing in their joy. etc...

The alternatives to praise are being specific - and not having a one sided conversation ('good job' and 'good boy/girl' and 'well done' is pretty much the end of the conversation). 'You have been working so hard at hitting that ball - you seem really pleased with yourself! - Were you having fun out there?' - your posture, your face, your attidue - all share in your childs joy of acheivement, they are neither 'good' (nor bad - cause, if you don't say 'good job/boy/girl' - does that mean that they are 'bad'?) - and this is not manipulative. Your child is enjoying themselves whilst painting a picture -you could say 'oh well done! - Good job - Good boy/girl!' (end of conversation) - or, you could put aside the meaningly praise and say things like 'You are using a lot of colours in your picture, espeically the colour purple - do you really like the colour purple?'...the conversation is thus endless and you can find out if your child is really having fun, enjoying themselves, what they are proud of, etc - without labeling it for them.

I think people can often think a 'no praise' household is a really sad and joyless one. I think its the complete opposite! I think it really gets conversations going and really gets into the minds of everyone - its open, including emotions - which is only a very healthy thing. There can be plenty of joy and happiness in a 'no praise' household without phrases used such as 'good' this and that and 'well done', etc. I think praise used can seem happy and nice on the outside, but it doesnt get inside the child. It can be sad and joyless and far from open.

I don't understand how no praise can 'not work' - what exactly was it supposed to work in the first place? I guess if I end up with a child who is a complete attention seeker, has very low self esteem and is always looking for the approval of others (and is depressed when they don't get it) as an adult, then it will have 'not worked' - but thats something thats going to take years to find out - years - so just trying something for a 'little while' isn't exactly the whole picture. I can't tell you what my son is going to be like at 18, but I am pretty confident in all of my parenting choices, from co sleeping to breastfeeding to baby wearing, and to 'no praise'. I compare 'no praise' to all of these things, they are things that have long term emotional and social impacts on a growing child - someones child could catch a cold and they might say 'oh breastfeeding doesn't work' - but thats not the full picture is it? Co sleeping certainly doesn't work, my four year old is still in my bed lmao...I can only hope he will be a happy and emotionally healthy individual - if he has that, then he will go far.

[frontierpsych]

I think what is most important is to eliminate insincere, manipulative, or just plain asinine praise. I also don't like "good boy/girl!" because it sounds like something you say to a dog, not another person.

My rule of thumb (not much happening yet, as DS is only 12 months) is if it would sound stupid to say to my husband, I probably won't say it to my son. (ie: "Good job flushing the toilet!" "Good job finishing your dinner!")

However, I think children are more capable of sensing our unconditional love than Kohn gives them credit for (though I agree with most of what he says, and practice most of his ideals) so it honestly just seems silly to me to walk on eggshells making sure you never damage their fragile psyches by saying "good job".

[mamazee]

Yeah, no praise "doesn't work" because using it to work is the whole issue of it. Using praise to "work" - to cause a behavior change - is what the "no praise" concept is avoding. Though "no praise" isn't an accurate way to phrase it. It's about not praising in an attempt to reinforce behavior. Praise that happens simply out of joy or happiness isn't what is being talked about here. The problem is with praise that is being used "to work".

[GoestoShow]

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Edited by GoestoShow - 12/10/10 at 7:02pm

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by GoestoShow

Praise and punishment can be manipulative and can change behavior, true. But whether we realize it or not even as adults they affect us. I have a performance review for my job every year. If my boss thinks I've done a pretty good job, my raise will be higher, so this review informs me of my performance, and I am often motivated to do my best so I can receive the highest raise possible --- so, I suppose this type of praise does manipulate me, but so what?

Well, actually Alfie Kohn is opposed to that, too. LOL. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/f...3857/index.htm

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by seriosa

ETA
The examples OP gave above, finishing food, clearing toys, etc, I would use "good job" too. Sometimes my DH will thank me for cleaning house, or for making his meals every day. These are my duties and I don't do them for the thanks, but it is so sweet to be appreciated even for these mundane things!

This here is the rub to me - your husband says "thanks" to you, but you say "good job" to your child - why not just say "thank you" to your child, too?

For me, there's a difference between appreciation and praise. I thank my kids regularly for being patient, kind, helping out, etc. I also do praise htem, but am very specific about the what and why. I also tell them I'm proud of them, when they've done something that I think is out of the ordinary, not a normal thing they should be doing anyway.

I think the problem lumps in when appreciation and praise get intertwined, and when normal things that kids are supposed to be doing anyway are praised instead of appreciated...seems like semantics, but I really do believe it can be problematic. IMO, it's overpraise, and using praise where appreciation or gratitude is more appropriate, that are the problems. Not never praising or encouraging your kid at all.

[roxyrox]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Yeah, no praise "doesn't work" because using it to work is the whole issue of it. Using praise to "work" - to cause a behavior change - is what the "no praise" concept is avoding. Though "no praise" isn't an accurate way to phrase it. It's about not praising in an attempt to reinforce behavior. Praise that happens simply out of joy or happiness isn't what is being talked about here. The problem is with praise that is being used "to work".

When I said it didn't "work", I meant the whole philosophy! Really, there is NOTHING wrong with saying "good job", or "well done". Kids, like adults, get joy out of that. And saying that you wouldn't praise your dc unless it was something you would praise your dh/dw for is just silly. Going on the potty is a big thing for a 2yo...not so much for your dh/dw I imagine...?

Insincere praise is bad, I agree. But if you are sincere when you say "good job", I really can't see the harm. At all.
Honestly I think you can "over think" parenting. Generally, I think saying what comes naturally is a-ok.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

IMO Life is very hard and sometimes a nice "well done" or "That is great" can make all the difference in how a persons day goes. I love seeing my kids eyes light up when I tell them how good a job they have done

Like anything else it can be overused like the good job after every letter thing but I do think that whatever makes the child feel good and helps them learn is the right way to go.

[mamazee]

I agree that we can overthink things, but I do question whether the continual praise some people use - and I'm not saying you do because we all praise to some degree and in some way or another, and this is more about parents who use a LOT of it and with a specific purpose - I wonder whether that kind of praise is really natural, or whether it's learned from what we've seen other people do, and what our parents and teachers did to us when we were kids. And really it was used much more in the 70s, and particularly the 80s, then it is now, so it's quite possible no one here does it anyway and isn't aware of what Alfie Kohn is talking about. I wish I could describe it, but there's a parenting (and teaching - I actually think it's more common among teachers) style where there's a pretty continual use of "good job" to keep a child moving in the direction wanted.

[frontierpsych]

Originally Posted by roxyrox

And saying that you wouldn't praise your dc unless it was something you would praise your dh/dw for is just silly. Going on the potty is a big thing for a 2yo...not so much for your dh/dw I imagine...?

That's not what I meant by it. I guess I mean to say that, if my husband did something that was a huge achievement for him, say, worked hard and got a raise, I might say "That's really great, I'm proud of you honey!". Same for a toddler who uses the potty. Not to manipulate their behaviour, but because they achieved something that they wanted to achieve, and I am proud of them for that! But I do find "Good boy! Who used the potty? You did! Good job, my little schnookum-wookums! Who wants a cookie!" type praise to be diminutive and generally worthless. This, IME, is how parents get the type of kids who seek praise for everything they do, and do certain things just to get praise (which seems to be what Kohn is mainly talking about, I think).

[Mal85]

I didn't read the replies, so this may have been said already...

I don't think it's wrong to praise your children and let them know you're proud of them. I think it's more that the phrase "Good job!" gets overused. Parents/caregivers/teachers aren't telling the kid what it is they've done well and the kid is learning to behave a certain way only to please another person rather than for the satisfaction of doing a job well.

Some things I've been taught to do are to actually point out what the child is doing well. Like when they are playing nicely and sharing with the other kids. Say something like "It's so kind of you to share you toys with (insert name)". Or "I love to see you playing so nicely with your friends".

I'm also a firm believer that I should be honest with my kids and the emotions the make me feel. Including when I'm proud of them. My parents didn't usually tell me when they were proud of me and I always wondered if they were, so I will not hesitate to tell my daughter when she has done something that makes me feel proud of her. Just like I won't hesitate to tell her when she's done something that disappoints me. I think it's important to teach your kids that their actions have an effect on how other people feel.

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by roxyrox

When I said it didn't "work", I meant the whole philosophy! Really, there is NOTHING wrong with saying "good job", or "well done". Kids, like adults, get joy out of that. And saying that you wouldn't praise your dc unless it was something you would praise your dh/dw for is just silly. Going on the potty is a big thing for a 2yo...not so much for your dh/dw I imagine...?

Insincere praise is bad, I agree. But if you are sincere when you say "good job", I really can't see the harm. At all.
Honestly I think you can "over think" parenting. Generally, I think saying what comes naturally is a-ok.

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[liliaceae]

This article is great: The Power (and Peril) of Praising Your Kids