I'm seeing a pattern with AP and sleep, and it's not good... - Page 3

[Organicavocado]

Im not sure that waking multiple times a night constitutes as a poor sleeper at my LOs age (also 3/08). I'm still tending to think that night waking is a natural response. He slept 10-12 hours until recently, when it's shortened to 8-9 and he has been more tantrum-ey but I think its more the age than sleep, as even when he has a random long "restful" night he is still cranky, even after his nap, etc. He sleeps longer and possibly deeper if he is away from me (when I get touched out I get him down then move him to the playpen for the first few hours) but I don't really think this is "better" sleep.

He goes down when he wants to, he sleeps as long as he wants to, he wakes up when he wants to. I'm annoyed at being grabbed at every hour but I think thats my issue, not his.

[phrogger]

Originally Posted by KailuaMamatoMaya

I'm the execption to your theory - we coslept, breastfed and NEVER CIO with dd - she slept well as a baby (minimal wake ups to nurse and fall back asleep quickly), great in her own bed as a toddler and can go to bed alone and sleep all night at 4 1/2 and has been doing it for over a year.

I really thing sleep issues are personality related and not an issue of CIO vs. AP in my observation of parents and children. If your kid is laid back and naturally mellow - sleep can come easier, other personalities have more difficulty with it - not a reflection of good or bad parenting in any way

I haven't read all the responses, but this is simliar to my oldest, although he was sleeping really well all on his own at 12 months. My second son was even sooner. My step son however never co slept, didn't bf, did CIO and STILL sleeps like crap at 9 years old. I think it is SO individual, so my best argument for my husband to co sleep and bf all night long is I actually sleep better. I can roll over and feed him. Even if he is up all night nursing, I still get some sleep.

[NaturalMindedMomma]

Hmmmm..

Not sure, I think it depends on a lot of factors.

Traumatic events in the childs life, the childs personality, as well as the sleep routine.

My 2 year old has been through some trauma this year and her sleep habit have changed. She used to sleep in a crib, she was NOT a good sleeper in the beginning, when I switched her to formula and put her in a crib and put her on her tummy she slept much better. Then the formula started bothering her and we learned she had true milk/soy allergies. When we got her on the right formula, she slept better still. I did rock occasionally but sometimes I would let her whimper or whine for a few minutes, but never a full cry unless I was angry or frustrated and needed a mommy time out.

After formula (11 months), she slept in her crib if given a cuppy to fall asleep with or if rocked.

By 18 months, she was waking A LOT for the cup in the middle of the night. I weaned her from it all together. It took two days of crying at night before bed ( i would go into her room and soothe her but not pick her up) and then she was weaned. At night I would put her in the crib with books and she would fall asleep reading. AWESOME! Well then some important people left her and then came back and then left again and well, disrupted the whole routine. She is now on my floor in my room on a dora pull out bed/couch with cuppy. She is weaning off day naps and sometimes naps later in the day then is up VERY late. We really need to get a bed time routine down again, but I am waiting until the new babe is a bit older and the 2 year old adjusts.

As for my new DD, She is nursed and bedshares. She sleeps pretty well, but had moments, I mean she is barely 6 weeks!

I decided that we will take it as it goes. I think at about 4 months I am going to try to get her to sleep on her own surface and put the girls in their own room when the baby is 1.

We will see how it goes.

[mamazee]

So I haven't read the whole thread, but it looks like some people have touched on how some people choose to do some AP things because of how poorly their kids sleep or whatever? That's me. I was bound and determined to not co-sleep. I'd breastfeed. I'd hold that baby as much as she wanted (though I assumed it wouldn't be less than it was) but no co-sleeping for me.

Then she came into my life, and while I didn't plan to co-sleep, she most certainly did. We slept together because it was the only way for me to get any sleep what so ever. If she'd slept even slightly OK, I would never have thought to co-sleep.

So I think there is a relationship between bad sleeping and co-sleeping, but the cause and effect aren't what you think they are, IMO.

[dmpmercury]

I think that total sleep isn't dependent on parenting type at all. Ferber actually revised his sleep needs charts recently and the average total sleep a baby needs and it is a lot less than previous thought so I think most kids get enough sleep and the ones that don't probably have medical issues. I think a lot of the sleep books out there over estimated the total sleep that many babies need.

I went to a hospital moms group in my area that truly had a mix of all types of parents with all types of arrangements. Some were really hardcore AP parents others were parents who did CIO and formula fed and I found that most parents besides a few lucky ones were constantly asking the instructor for advice on sleep all the way through and the group went to age 2.

Some sleep issues were minor and just parents expecting a baby to sleep through the night with no wakings really early and wondering why it wasn't happening and others had really bad nights. Some tried CIO for a few nights and it didn't work. Some did have it work very sucessfully in 3 or 4 nights. Some tried babywise and it didn't work. There were all types through the years. The instructor said that she saw moms who used babywise with obvously hungry babies walking around trying to calm them down. There were cosleeping nursing babies who slept through the night and bottle fed babies in cribs down the hall who woke frequently. There were parents who didn't want to co sleep but ended up doing it because baby insisted and there would be no sleep otherwise.

Co sleeping and nursing is actually the norm and is practiced in many cultures through out the globe. No one wonders when a baby is sleeping through the night in many places. Breastmilk is digested fast and the frequent rousings in a young infant help protect it. They are in light sleep periods a lot more often than adult and it is for a reason. They are meant to eat in the night. SIDS deaths are unheard of in many places where co sleeping is the norm. Our species would of never survived if cave dwellers put there babies in a different part of the cave and we haven't evolved too much from that yet.

Easy going babies who are formula fed for whatever reason and do not co sleep probably do sleep a lot longer and learn to fall asleep on their own faster and sleep through the night without needing help through their night rousings faster than a breastfed baby who co sleeps but that doesn't mean that they are sleeping better or how a baby should be sleeping. Co sleeping babies are not sleep deprived.

Sometimes I think things would of been so much easier if I didn't start out co sleeping with my son and breastfeed him so often but he insisted upon it. I'm working on gentle sleep training that doesn't involve CIO and it going slower than I like. I co sleep with my dd and held her for naps and she fell alseep breastfeeding all the time and she was a much better sleeper than my son. With him I tried harder to get to him to sleep a variety of ways not just breastfeeding and I worked on napping indepently harder yet he wakes way more frequently than she did. He doesn't fall asleep breastfeeding at night he goes to sleep on his own in a crib. If he wakes and I know he isn't hungry I get him to sleep by patting or talking to him not just with breastfeeding. My dd breastfed to sleep at his age and co slept all night yet and if she woke I always breastfed and she woke much less. He just a different kid and a much lighter sleeper. He get less total sleep than she did but I think he needs less total sleep. He was more of a high needs baby and she wasn't. It had nothing to do with how I parented.

[sunshadow]

We never planned on co-sleeping, but we did because our child was a bad sleeper. She wasn't a bad sleeper because we co-slept. And now, at 2, she is a great sleeper. I've known families that cry it out and their child doesn't have a good association with sleep for a very long time and they have sleep issues for much longer. Example, one family I know never co-slept and did the CIO thing and at 3 they had to sleep on the floor in her room just to get her to sleep. In the end I think it's really the child's temperment.

[editornj]

Originally Posted by terrainthailand

For me though, the real point is this, even if it were true (and I'm not saying it is) that AP practices contribute to crappy sleeping, then what? I'm sure you aren't going to practice CIO! Some children clearly need parenting during the night, are we going to deny them that?

You're absolutely right. But I just wonder if there is another way? I haven't read Happiest Baby on the Block thoroughly, and I'm not sure how MDC feels about it, but it seems that having different methods of soothing my baby might have helped. The burden of nursing every 45 minutes always fell to me, for more than a year, and I got myself in a very ugly and scary situation with PPD and sleep deprivation. I'm still trying to pull out of it.

I wonder if there is a way to read your baby and not always offer the boob at every peep, like I did. Maybe early on I could have tried bouncing or patting. I didn't try stuff like that until we were a several months in and I was already burning out.

On the other hand, knowing DS, he probably wouldn't have accepted anything but the boob. No way for me to know now. Either he was/is super high needs, or I "trained" him to only sleep when XYZ conditions were met and a nipple was in his mouth.

ETA: Even though I almost didn't survive this year+ with PPD and lack of sleep (arguably the late-onset PPD was brought on by too little sleep), I still wouldn't go back and let my child CIO. Nor will I attempt it with my new baby. Isn't a mother's love amazing?

[NiteNicole]

You're absolutely right. But I just wonder if there is another way?

Looking back, I can think of several things I should have done but at the time, I was just trying to get by. I was too tired to really think and too afraid of things getting worse.

First, I should have begun not to put my baby on a schedule, but to have some kind of predictable rhythm to our days - from the very beginning.

I should have always done the same things before naps and bedtimes as soon as my daughter started to show some signs of what HER good day looked like.

I should have waited to see if she was really AWAKE before I started shush, rocking, patting, feeding, etc to get her back to sleep. Often, she wasn't even awake, she was just complaining, getting to a lighter part of her sleep cycle, and trying to settle herself back down. I, in my sleep deprived panic, would think - I better grab her now before she's fully awake or I'll never get her back to sleep.

She was a cruddy sleeper and that was probably just GOING to happen, no matter what, but looking back there are things I could have done to make our lives easier.

It also took me forever to REALLY get that a good night follows a good day - FOR MY CHILD (I know some kids can go with the flow and everyone can do their own thing and the kid just goes along with it, but not mine), she really would have done well with a much more predictable day with bedtime and nap routines (not long ones, but clear signals that said...next up, sleep, so get ready) and that kind of thing.

[the_lissa]

I've done the same thing with all 3 of my kids. My first didn't sleep through the night until age 4. My second did before a year, and my 3 month old sleeps 12 hours at night.

[almadianna]

I really want to know why a child STTN is such a huge badge of honor. Really, so what if kids dont sleep through the night until later in life.

They are NOT supposed to. So um... how is it a bad thing that they dont?

AP doesnt create bad sleepers, but AP parents are just responsive to their kid's needs which while hard is best for them.

I have had one amazing sleeper and one who is the poster child for bad sleepers. We do what our children need and are in no hurry to start comparing notes with people who CIO for whose kids sleep longer or better because it isnt a priority for us. Having happy, healthy, and confident kids who dont throw up on themselves after crying is.

[lurve]

honestly of the five AP mamas in my mama's group, I am the only one with a crappy sleeper. all the others sleep through the night and can even spend nights at grandparents with no problems. my DD is THE crappy sleeper but I can only imagine how much worse she would be if i let her CIO. she is a sensitive child and i have a feeling if i did CIO it would really psychologically screw her up for life. seriously.

[NiteNicole]

I really want to know why a child STTN is such a huge badge of honor. Really, so what if kids dont sleep through the night until later in life.

They are NOT supposed to. So um... how is it a bad thing that they dont?

This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart. IT IS OK TO NEED SLEEP. IT IS OK TO BE DISSATISFIED WITH HOW YOUR CHILD IS SLEEPING. Sleep deprevation is torture for a reason. Sleep is a need as basic as food, it's not a luxury.

I guess maybe when people say oh, kids aren't supposed to sleep through the night, it won't last forever...maybe they have in mind a more normal two or three times a night and back to sleep thing and not the desperate soul crushing (yes, it's that bad) results of years never having two consecutive hours of sleep. It's horrible!

I just want to repeat that I am not in favor of CIO and I do not think that responsive, attentive, attached parenting makes for poor sleepers, I just don't think there's anything within the AP model that really addresses those kids who are ROTTEN sleepers. I also think that parents can sometimes, through their well meaning efforts to be responsive, make things worse. I gave some examples further back of how I didn't help my own situation and how I'd do things differently next time (and there almost certainly will not be a next time).

[FreeRangeMama]

But why is it not helpful? Once I accepted that sleep was not a right I was entitled to it really helped my perspective. I know what no sleep is like. My eldest only slept for about 5 hours in a 24 hour period (and only 3 of those while I was trying to sleep, plus he woke to nurse once or twice). That lasted for THREE YEARS! Realizing that some kids just don't sleep and that I HAD to suck it up really made me let go and accept that this is where we were at this point in life. What choice did I have? I couldn't MAKE him sleep, so it was MY perspective that had to change if I was going to keep my sanity!

Just a different way to look at it

[pampered_mom]

My experience with dd has been a bit different than with ds. With dd our night-time parenting was very much AP while with ds it was very much the mainstream. Ds is a lot more laid back and has had some sleep issues from the start (which routine has helped with quite a bit now that he's older, but it certainly hasn't solved things) while dd is a lot more spirited/high needs (and is a far better napper than ds ever was). The thing that I keep coming back to with dd, though, is what would have happened if we hadn't chosen the AP path? I suspect that it's likely things would have been *worse* not better. There's really no way of knowing what would have been.

[krystyn33]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole

This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart.

I think the underlying problem is the lack of support for those of us parenting the lousy sleepers (and boy am I one--have been for over 2.5 years now). Yes, getting enough rest to function is important--essential to being the mothers we want to be. But while we are not getting enough restorative sleep during the night, what stands in the way of getting much needed rest during the day? Need to work in & outside the home. Lack of family/community to lessen the work load so we can nap ourselves.

For the first year and a half I was unable to work or make any commitments outside my child rearing and household responsibilities. And during really bad sleep times I struggled with even the most basic tasks. I simply could not function at the same level as I did prior to DS's birth because of chronic sleep deprivation. Frankly, that in itself was not the issue; the stress and pressure to do more and lacking help (grandparents, siblings, cousins, even friends) to take the pressure off are the real cause of the problem. Young children not sleeping well at night is normal for our species. Social isolation is not. And in the US the culture has such an emphasis on individuality and self-sufficiency that many of us feel like failures for asking for help--for not being able to do it all on our own. No one says, "Oh, you have a little one--probably not getting much sleep are you? Let's see what we can do to make things easier for you during this time." Instead it is "Did you get your child to STTN yet? What tricks did you use?"

[Zimbah]

Originally Posted by krystyn33

I think the underlying problem is the lack of support for those of us parenting the lousy sleepers (and boy am I one--have been for over 2.5 years now). Yes, getting enough rest to function is important--essential to being the mothers we want to be. But while we are not getting enough restorative sleep during the night, what stands in the way of getting much needed rest during the day? Need to work in & outside the home. Lack of family/community to lessen the work load so we can nap ourselves.

I agree this is part of it - a big part of it. But even though I'm currently in a situation where I DO often have help during the day, I would still really, really like to be sleeping better at night. I often don't go to bed when DD does, even though that would help, because I need time away from her for my own sanity. I can't be either with her, or asleep (or both), I need a bit of space!

[almadianna]

Originally Posted by NiteNicole

This is the kind of thinking that can be so hurtful to someone who is really suffering with a bad sleeper (I came here many times and asked for suggestions and while I got plenty of suggestions and hugs and sympathy, I also got a large number of "just suck it up, that's what kids do" type replies that were not helpful). It's not about "bragging rights" of having your kid STTN, it's about your own need for sleep. It's a bad thing when kids don't sleep through the night if the parent(s) is on the edge of exhaustion and falling apart. IT IS OK TO NEED SLEEP. IT IS OK TO BE DISSATISFIED WITH HOW YOUR CHILD IS SLEEPING. Sleep deprevation is torture for a reason. Sleep is a need as basic as food, it's not a luxury.

I guess maybe when people say oh, kids aren't supposed to sleep through the night, it won't last forever...maybe they have in mind a more normal two or three times a night and back to sleep thing and not the desperate soul crushing (yes, it's that bad) results of years never having two consecutive hours of sleep. It's horrible!

I just want to repeat that I am not in favor of CIO and I do not think that responsive, attentive, attached parenting makes for poor sleepers, I just don't think there's anything within the AP model that really addresses those kids who are ROTTEN sleepers. I also think that parents can sometimes, through their well meaning efforts to be responsive, make things worse. I gave some examples further back of how I didn't help my own situation and how I'd do things differently next time (and there almost certainly will not be a next time).

Actually I am the mother of a child who is a horrible sleeper. I understand dealing with post partum depression and a child who would only sleep in your arms for the first few months of life and you getting less than 3 hours of sleep in a week.

Once I understood that this was "normal" I felt better. I have two kids under three I havent had a good night sleep since I was pregnant with my first... but I know that it will end and that it is ok.

The AP Model of care says very simply that all kids are different and we have to meet their needs, there doesnt need to be a specific "how to" on training kids to sleep because they will learn eventually. If we believe that there should be it is our expectation, not necessarily a reality.

[EMS]

Just saw this post, and I wanted to say that I think you should do what you need to allow you to get some sleep. All babies and all families are different. Family beds work for some and not for others. Like PP, I too suffered from PPD, and the only thing that ameliorated it was finally managing to get some sleep.
I just don't think it is as black and white as CIO or holding your baby every minute of every day.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

But why is it not helpful? Once I accepted that sleep was not a right I was entitled to it really helped my perspective...What choice did I have? I couldn't MAKE him sleep, so it was MY perspective that had to change if I was going to keep my sanity!

The fact is that some of us cannot simply choose to keep our sanity by changing our perspective. Without solid blocks of sleep, my depression spirals out of control. I know that's not the case with everyone. I totally get that.

But I do not think that those who can adapt really do get what it is like for those of us who cannot adapt. I need X amount of hours of sleep in a row to keep myself functional. Not happy, not well rested but just functional.

I used to feel guilty about it, as if I just was not tough enough but looking back at it I feel sorry for my younger self. We're not all the same and that's okay.

[almadianna]

I dont believe that one should feel guilty about needing more sleep, but I also dont believe that one should expect a magic button, or training, etc. that can help with that. I think that part of having a child is understanding that there will be some sacrifices that go along with it. For some of us (not all of us but at least for me) one of those sacrifices was sleep. It is not fun but my children are sleeping better than than 2 year ago, and I know that 2 years from now it will be even better.

I know that I personally cannot handle more sleeplessness for a while, so we are not having more kids because I cannot mentally and physically handle it. I work full time and need rest to work so that we can pay our bills.

It has not been an easy few years but I know that it will end and that my children need me. Their needs right now do come before mine and that is ok.