The guilt...

[ColoradoHELLP]

I am just eaten with guilt right now. Not crying yet but I am guessing that will come later. This is going to be long because there is so much history behind it. After the history, I'll relay the event that happened tonight. And you may not agree with my methods, but they work for us and we have had relatively good success with them considering our situation.

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We have four house dogs. All are over 80 pounds. Two are 115. I'll use doggie aliases. Gauge (11.5) and Marsha (9) are best buddies. Gauge is really slowing down and Marsha has bad hips. She is doing OK but slowing down too.

Tootie and Ingrid are both six years old and female. They used to be best buddies, until one day they decided that they hated each other. They were fine until they were about 4 years of age.

So the dogs are separated all the time, and they have been for years. Let me tell you that it is absolutely taxing and stressful and really not much fun at all.

One dog in, one dog out. Close one crate open another. Hey honey? Did you close that door? OH WAIT!!! So-and-so is out! Etc.

I was a professional dog trainer for several years. I am good with dominant dogs. But some temperament traits are just inherent. They cannot be changed, only managed. And such is the case with the younger dogs trying to "climb the ladder" so to speak.

Gauge and Marsha are together all the time. They are best buds. But Tootie and Ingrid want to fight for dominance with one another and each of them will take on both of the older dogs for dominance. It isn't like our house is a raging dog fight at all. The older dogs run the house and the two six year olds are crated. Of course the younger ones also get to run around the house, but only for 1/3 of the time or less. When they have house time and pass a crated dog, they are fine.

Even when both are outside of their crates and in the house loose, they tend to be fine together. That is, until someone knocks at the door and one of the dogs higher in rank barks. Then it is ON. This is the trigger, and of course we cannot predict when someone will come to the door, or the mailman will drive by, etc.

So, our life is a constant rotation of dogs because we have to keep them apart just in case a "trigger" springs up. It isn't worth the risk of keeping them together because fights are very serious and would end in death if I couldn't get them apart.

This is just an example of how serious things get. About six months ago we tried allowing Tootie and Ingrid to run around again together. For a week things were fine. We make sure that there is nothing to protect (like food or toys or beds) and nothing to guard. Then there is a knock on the door. I am breastfeeding the baby (who at the time was just out of the NICU at 5 pounds) and the dogs start barking. I see the fight coming.

I try to call the dogs away from one another. But, they have each other by the ears and blood is everywhere. I walk over to the crib, set the baby down, go back and try to pull the dogs apart while talking to them. No luck. Actually had to get two leashes, put a leash around the waist of Tootie and attach her to the leg of the coach. Then I put a leash around the waist of Ingrid and pulled backwards. They came apart. Half of Tootie's ear was gone.

Anyway, what I am getting at is that the stress of keeping the dogs separate is really weighing in on our family. This is not a normal life and not what I signed up for - but I keep going back to the fact that I made a commitment and it should be for LIFE. We've made it this many years keeping everyone in their respective locations, but when we make a mistake it turns into a big deal. Even one mistake a year is a big one. Our life is literally dogs in crates and behind doors.

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Tootie introduced me to my husband. She crawled in his lap at the dog park. She was in our wedding.

So on to tonight.

Yesterday I gave her a bath and tonight I wanted to see if she was still smelling good. I patted her on the back and bent to get closer. She whirled around and snapped at my face. Her whiskers actually grazed my cheek, but I was just far enough away that she did not make physical contact. I immediately commanded her into a down, which she would normally do for my in ANY situation under ANY kind of stress. She wouldn't go down. I literally had to push her to the ground.

And here is where I start the random rambling.

I am almost certain that I either need to have her put to sleep or find her a home. She has never threatened me, or any other human for that matter. I think she would move right in to someone else's home just fine. She is an awesome dog. Very protective of her family, great in public situations, a great obedience demo dog, etc.

But I committed to her. For life. And she introduced me to my husband! I have developed a little bit of distance with her since the dog fight we had six months ago. I have this superstition that giving up on this dog is like giving up on my marriage. Or more like if I give her up, something will happen to my marriage because she is the one who essentially got us together. I know its odd, and I know its weird...but I guess I am trying to say that I just don't know what to do.

I keep thinking things like:

1) When the baby starts crawling, what if someone leaves a crate door open and a dog fight breaks out?

2) What if Tootie is starting to feel at liberty to challenge my dominance, and because of my family obligations I cannot be the unfailing leader? (When I say sit, you will sit. When I put down food, you wait until I say go. When I open a door, I go out first, etc)

3) Can I live like this? There is no more enjoyment for us when it comes to dogs. It is all work and constant management.

4) Can I place Tootie responsibly?

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Anyway, I am just totally stressed out about the dog thing and I need to vent. I really think it is affecting our family. I don't have positive feelings about the dogs any more - I just take care of them because that was something I committed to before I met my husband and before our child came along. And I feel a lot of guilt related to possibly placing out Tootie. I just don't know what to do.

If you have gotten this far and care to weigh in, I would really appreciate hearing what you have to say. What course of action would you take? Please share your opinions, and if possible, I'd prefer honesty minus flames.

:-)

Thanks.

[Sailor]

Alright, your situation is extremely stressful. It's not working for you, or for your dogs.

In your situation, I would also be seriously considering re-homing. I'm also a "dog for life" type of person. I'm heavily involved in dog rescue, also do training, etc.

But, your situation just doesn't sound safe - for you or the dogs. You can't be vigilant 100% of the time. When your baby is older, crawling, a toddler, etc., your ability to be vigilant will be taxed even more. I wouldn't take the chance that something could happen.

So, what I would do is contact some rescues, tell them about your situation, and see if they would be willing to help out.

Or, if you know how, try to find someone on your own.

The only problem that I potentially see is the recent snapping. Could she be in pain? Or any other health problems? Or, perhaps, the reaction has something to do with the dog fight. You could be absolutely right - she may be a wonderful pet in a child-less home, as the only dog.

In other words, what I'm trying to say is that I understand the guilt ... but, I don't think you're wrong in your assessment of the situation.

[Oubliette8]

This is a very difficult situation. I've lived in a house with dogs who had to always be separated, and its tough. In our case it was only two dogs and as both kept different schedules due to their primary caretakers schedule, it was far less difficult than what you describe, when all the dogs are one the same schedule, managed by one person, and some ended up spending a good bit of time crated. I've also rehomed a dog. I made a very strong commitment to that dog when I adopted him that this would be his last home. His adoption had also played a strong role in forming a very important friendship. however, I found myself in a position where I simply could not manage to meet his needs- I tried everything I could and eventually it became clear that it just wasn't enough.

It KILLED me to rehome that dog. Its been almost 4 years and I still think about him all the time. However, I get occasional updates from his new family and I know he is much, MUCH happier in his new situation. he can do all sorts of things that I simply couldn't give him in my home.

I think you are right, and something needs to be done with Tootie. The situation is dangerous for your baby, not just if there is a dog fight, but because Tootie has shown that she will snap- what if next time she doesn't miss? You aren't enjoying your dogs anymore, you're managing them. You're under constant stress trying to keep them apart and make sure noone gets hurt. Thats not a good life for you. I think you should look at Tootie too- Is being crated so much really the best life for her? Would she be better off with a family that can really enjoy her, instead of trying to manage her? How must she feel with the stress of living in an environment with a dog she feels she has to fight? What sorts of opportunities is Tootie missing out on that she could get elsewhere?

I think the only question you really have to ask yourself is #4- Can you place Tootie responsibly? Normally I would not recommend placing a dog who has snapped at humans unprovoked, unless there was a clear cause and they had remedial training (ie- resource guarding, and had gone through corrective training, or perhaps snapped in pain, but the pain was fixed or controlled now) However, I think only you know best in Tooties case. Its possible that moved into a calmer environment, perhaps with someone more equipped to be on top of her training that she would never come close to snapping again. On the other hand, it may be the beginning of a bigger behavioral problem. Has she been checked by the vet since the snapping incident? It might help to know if it was caused by pain from some unknown condition, or if it just happened out of the blue. I think you're being very honest about Tootie with yourself, so I'm sure whatever you decide willl be the right decision. The rest of us aren't there and didn't see the incident, nor can we truly know the extent of the issue or the cause behind it. You probably have a better feel for all of that than any of us. It seems clear though that Tottie can not continue to live with you, given the threat she poses to your other dogs and the baby. The only question is what will happen to her.

The only thing I would suggest is if you do place, make it someone who is childless and dogless and not planning on any within Tootie's conceivable lifespan. It would also help to choose someone who is experienced with dog training, and of course, Totties issues would need to be disclosed.

I feel for you. Its a very difficult decision. I'm sorry its one you have to make.

[Leta]

I am a total pet person. I like my animals far, far more than I like most people. When I get a pet, I commit for life. So far, knock on wood, I have never even thought about rehoming an animal. I have often said I understand people who neglect their kids more than I understand people who neglect their pets, because no one just has sex and ends up with a dog. (Read with tongue in cheek, but I'm sure you get my point.)

All that said? Hon, you have to change this situation. It isn't good or healthy for you, your husband, your baby, or the dogs. IDK what kind of dogs we're talking about here, but my dog is 68# of solid muscle, and AmStaf/retriever mix. She is an immensely powerful animal. She can pull 400# on the dogsled, swim all the way across our lake, and run like Carl Lewis. I cannot imagine how terrifying it would be to watch her fight- really fight- another dog, especially when I had a baby.

Would it ease your guilt at all if you rehomed both Tootie and Ingrid (to different homes, of course)? If that would just make it worse, ignore me.

Take it from someone who is really, really tough on anyone who rehomes a pet: You have done everything you can do. You have gone far above and beyond what most people would do. You are just doing what's best for your family. Take it easy on yourself.

[phatchristy]

Sure, ideally it's best to have a pet for life. However, part of being a responsible owner is knowing when you are over your head and re-homing the animal when they would do better in another situation. Sometimes, regardless of whether or not you love them or feel committed to them, they will do better in another home. And, you should follow through with that if it is what is best for them.

IMHO it should not be a 'hellish existance' to own/have dogs as pets. Your situation sounds like so stressful, so chaotic. I can't imagine here being so stressed.

[Ola_]

Honestly, having two females of the same age is a recipe for disaster. Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't it gets really bad. I've had a couple of friends who had two females and had to do the same thing you are, always crating, separating, and worrying. It's a terrible, stressful thing to have to deal with. Whatever you decide to do I would not allow them free time together again.

For the issues with you though, I would also consider a thorough vet exam (including a FULL thyroid test) to find any possible causes for the agression. Also, I think the tensions in the house may be contributing. One of my friends (who ended up putting down one of the girls for increasingly agressive behaviour) commented on the huge difference in atmosphere once they didn't have both females anymore.

[sagewinna]

Your post made me cry... We have had a similar dynamic for years, with 2 females and one male, and 99% of the time we managed it by never playing with more than one of the girls at a time, keeping them seperated in high risk situations etc. Molly also has had a hard physical time of it over her 8 years. It took the dog sitter forgetting about the one girl at a time rule in the back yard recently to cause yet another fight, but this time it was a lot worse than a torn ear like we've had in the past. All 3 dogs were injured, but my other female ended up with quite a few head stitches and deep puncture wounds on 1/4 of her body. My dog sitter was thankfully here with her husband, as she ran into the melee to try to break it up and he brought her to her senses.

We could not responsibly re-home Molly, as she has a history of people agression and the dog fighting. We made the hard, hard decision to euthanize her. I cried unconsolably the night before, I had poured so much love and time and energy and money into my girl and it was so hard to let go. Her end was peaceful and we all said goodbye. I don't regret it but I still struggle with it. There is a marked lack of tension in the house now, it's been hard to adjust to for some reason. I am not living on red alert anymore.

I don't know what the answer for your situation is. I feel for you, though, and I wish you the best.

[angie7]

I could not imagine living like that with multiple dogs. Luckily my 4 females all get along great or I would have to do something! I understand your "for life" feelings but you also have to think of the welfare of the dogs. Is it really fair to them to stay crated so long? That alone would break my heart.

As for the aggression...that's a hard one. I use to be heavily involved in Great Dane rescue until medical issues arose for myself. One in particular was a 2 y/o male Dane that was aggressive towards women. I had rescued many "aggressive" dogs before, rehabilitated them and found them great homes. I assumed I could do the same for this guy. I was wrong, very wrong. I tried for 2 years to help him. I did everything possible for him to trust women and he would just snap at anything. It's really scary only being 5'3, 115 lbs and having a 160lb dog lunging at your face! I just couldn't bring myself to put him down. Rehoming his was absolutely not an option. He was 100% a liability. The last straw was him going after my pregnant belly. He was put down the next day. It was heartbreaking watching a 4 y/o dog that was physically healthy die but it had to be done.

I guess in that long ramble, I would suggest waiting on putting her down. Perhaps you spooked her, maybe she is in pain, have you had her to a vet check, blood work, etc? I would do everything possible before euthansia would be an option.

[Shahbazin]

Don't feel guilty about the decision you're having to make - because you know what? You tried. For a long time, & with a serious background in dogs. This isn't someone saying, "oh my, Sweetums just won't stop piddling in the house, pulling on the leash, biting my neighbor, & her fur just doesn't match our decor, she just has to go" without putting an ounce of effort into remedying the situation - this is a case of seriously trying to make a difficult situation work, & it's time to change to another plan. And that plan doesn't include "& we & our 4 dogs lived together, happily ever after". Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. But as long as you're taking responsibility for your dogs, whatever that may mean in a given situation - you're doing the right thing. The right thing for your pets may mean rehoming one or more in a "no other dogs" household; or it may mean peaceful euthanasia. You know your dogs, you know what the right thing in this situation is, even if it's a hard thing, & not what you planned.

I've lived in a multiple dog household all my life, & I've lived like you, with multiple dog aggressive dogs that couldn't be mixed (I've had up to 10 adult dogs at one point, usually have 6 or 7 dogs). I had two 125 lb bitches that hated each other's guts from the age of 2 & 3 years (& a 3rd, of the same size, that was hated by 1 of the other 2, but would only retaliate if attacked). So I know what it's like. I also know that small children really change the dynamics, too, since they don't have the experience or the physical strength (besides being at a really bad height) to deal with problem dogs.

Sometimes dogs just do better in other situations, too; it's tempting to get so caught up in our feeling of responsibilty, that we must somehow make things work - & maybe we just aren't the right home for that particular dog.

If I were you, I might consider just keeping the older dogs, & not getting more dogs until the kids are older.

[daniellebluetoo]

I know I'm going to get some crap for this, but.....

Have you considered shock collars?

I recently worked for a family that kept a trained guard dog that wore one. A rotti of course. Sweetest dog I've ever met, he was my buddy. The family got lazy and started leaving off the "dogtra" collar. Well, one day he got in a MAJOR fight with the families other dog, a 12 yr old german pointer, a normally very submissive (to humans anyway) dog. The pointer lost. fortunately I was there with the owners and we all pulled them apart. MAJOR vet visit

from then on the rotti NEVER came out of his crate without the collar on. For a while he was kept separate from the pointer, but after they were introduced again, the collar was used anytime he made any gesture that even looked like a threat towards the pointer.

The rotti hasn't to my knowledge ever challenged the pointer again.


Maybe a collar on each would make it possible for you to administer a mild to moderate shock anytime any aggression was displayed??????

Other than that, I have to agree with pp who thought that putting her down might be the safest option. I would personally never keep an animal that was aggressive and fought any chance it got for dominance, and as you know that's what she was doing when she refused to obey and instead snapped at you.



I'm so sorry you have these choices to consider mama, your situation really sucks.

blessings, Danielle

[FreeRangeMama]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

Sure, ideally it's best to have a pet for life. However, part of being a responsible owner is knowing when you are over your head and re-homing the animal when they would do better in another situation. Sometimes, regardless of whether or not you love them or feel committed to them, they will do better in another home. And, you should follow through with that if it is what is best for them.

IMHO it should not be a 'hellish existance' to own/have dogs as pets. Your situation sounds like so stressful, so chaotic. I can't imagine here being so stressed.

Absolutely this! Part of the unconditional love we have for our animals should be to know when it would be best for them to be in a home that is better for them. The commitment that is made to an animal "for life" should include that their best interests should come first (above our guilt or sense of obligation). Keeping dogs in a situation that has led to one dog LOSING AN EAR is really not okay. It needs to change. How is this kind of life fair to any of your dogs?

I really get the fact that animals are a commitment forever. But, when that forever turns into one or another always being confined and in constant rotation and the ever present risk of injury or death than it is no longer in anyone's best interest. As the human caretaker it is your responsibility to do right by these dogs and rehome Tootie (if you feel that is a safe option) to give her a chance at a peaceful life.

I hope this doesn't come across as a guilt trip for you, I really admire how hard you have tried to make this work. It just seems that now is the time to really show your love for this dog by letting her go to a home that can provide a different kind of life. Sorry, this must be so hard for you

[heartmama]

Such great advice here.

I can only add that I do not have a narrow definition of what a commitment 'for life' should look like. To me it means any responsible decision done in the best interest of the animal. You all sound miserable, and once you get past the 'superstition' that the dog's fate is somehow going to jinx your marriage (and I DO understand, trust me, what that feels like to have those feelings, but you still need to be objective and rational about it for the dog's sake), then you can make the best decision for this dog. I don't know what that will be, but from the sound of your post, I think any decision you make will be for the best.

[mamallama]

I agree that "commitment for life" can include a broader definition.

Dh brought a dog to our relationship. She was a horror from the beginning--chow mix, ambitious alpha, serial biter (we found excuses until there were no excuses to be had, and then we kept her away from people--everyone but dh, myself, and two v. old friends.)

She also had it in for my female doberman. There were numerous scuffles between the two, some worse than others, but the disagreements really paled in comparison to the last fight. I was home alone and I had to get a leash and tie one to the fence and then pull the other off--it was so horrible. I still think they would have fought to the death.

We'd all ready done the gates & crates routine--did it for years. The bad fight happened after a long period of calm. They were both getting older (the chow was 8, the dobie 10) and we were thinking that we could maybe reintroduce them. It went well the first several times. I don't know what sparked it the last time--somebody's stiff legged walk, a dirty look...something subtle. There were no toys, no bones, nothing. At that point, I wasn't a rookie!

We confined the chow entirely for the next couple of days. I'd had enough of the stress of living with those two dogs, and I wanted to euthanize the chow (can't rehome a serial biter!) but dh resisted. He saw the light a few days later when she bit me.

We should have done it sooner. She passed peacefully, she didn't fear any part of it, and she never saw it coming. In hindsight, I believe releasing her from the stress and anxiety of her life was the most compassionate thing we ever did for her.

I did not realize the enormity of the stress I was living with until it went away.

OP, I know you love your dog. I'm so sorry you are in this position.

[SquishyKitty]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

Sure, ideally it's best to have a pet for life. However, part of being a responsible owner is knowing when you are over your head and re-homing the animal when they would do better in another situation. Sometimes, regardless of whether or not you love them or feel committed to them, they will do better in another home. And, you should follow through with that if it is what is best for them.

IMHO it should not be a 'hellish existance' to own/have dogs as pets. Your situation sounds like so stressful, so chaotic. I can't imagine here being so stressed.

I agree with this. You have to look at this from all angles and figure out what's best for all of you, to include the dogs. It isn't an easy decision, we're huge dog lovers but sometimes, you just have to know when to step back and say "Ok, this is not working, we need to find a better solution".

It's heartbreaking, I agree. We rehomed a dog about 4 years ago, and it was a very hard decision. Knowing that you're doing the right thing makes it a little easier to bear, but it was still a very rough few weeks.

[SoCaliMommy]

two females dogs are never a good mix.

I'd rehome the one the tried to bite you.

My grandmother had a female doberman and i forgot how old she was when my grandma found a stray and brought it home but that stray then decided she was the top dog and it was her home and attacked the doberman a few times and my grandmother wouldn't rehome the stray... she had did so much damage to the doberman that she ended up with a softball sized lump on her next from the stay attacking her which had to be drained.
They were usually kept apart for the most part after the last big fight, and eventually the doberman passed from old age, and now the stray has free run of the house.

[ColoradoHELLP]

Thank you all for responding, and for your valued opinions.

I can say that this constant rotation of dogs is so incredibly stressful. Tootie and I really haven't spent much time together lately. I know she has already moved on and is her normal, cheery self - but I am harboring a grudge. Something that she obviously doesn't understand and is of course completely unreasonable on my part. I know that.

As far as the two female thing - yes, I know that typically doesn't work. The thing here is that it worked for FOUR years reliably. Now that the older dogs are showing their age, the pack dynamic has also shifted. If the older dogs would just consent to letting the younger ladies run the show, I think things would be so much easier. But as they say, "if wishes were horses..."

I honestly don't think things will ever work out with the current dogs. If one of the older dogs passes away, the younger girls will still fight with the older dog that is left. And of course, they will still fight with one another. And who knows the next time that I will be challenged by Tootie?

The last thing that I want to happen is for our daughter to be hurt. And honestly, that could happen if we are home and our "once a year" mistake takes place. What if she is a toddler that wants to jump in to help the doggies when a fight breaks out? I just can't risk it.

So, I just wanted to post. I have been reflecting for the past few days on this and I'll say that I have not come to a conclusion yet...but it has been incredibly stressful with the grudge issue and the constant rotation. Not to mention my daughter is having some issues with BFing and I am having supply issues. It all goes hand in hand is my guess.

Well, that is the news for now. Thanks for weighing in, gals. I appreciate it.